Random question

[Rence]

Annulement by WHOM? Catholic Church does not have jurisdiction over the marriages conducted outside the Catholic Church.

I was not considering a Jewish marriage invalid, or Protestant, or whatever. For Jews, Protestants, or else. But not for a Catholic marrying there. still I can’t see how Catholic Church can issue an annulment for a Protestant who wants to become a Catholic and marry a Catholic girl when he has been divorced from his Protestant wife years ago and his Protestant church does not consider him still married and does not issue annulments - they recognize divorces.

That’s what I always thought too. But a few of the more “seasoned” members have claimed that the Church does have jurisdiction over marriages conducted outside the Catholic Church. Well, first of all, they say the Church has jurisdiction over everything in the world, and everyone living in it, by default. Not sure I agree with that but whatever. Then they have said many times over and over again that one who is dating someone who has been married previously (outside the Church) has to have that previous marriage annulled before they can proceed in good conscience with the relationship. I’ve never seen the canon on it though.

I do know that the Church considers all marriages valid unless proven otherwise, and recognizes any marriage outside the Church (FOR NONCATHOLICS) to be valid if done in the tradition of their faith. If the parties are baptized in the name of the trinity and get married in the tradition of their non-Catholic Christian faith, then it’s considered Sacramental as well. Perhaps that’s why these seasoned members are saying that those non-Catholic weddings have to be examined for validity (according to the requirements of the Church) when Catholics date non-Catholics who have been divorced previously.

Edited to add: Also seasoned members have told those entering RCIA or newly entering the Church, that the have to have their previous marriages examined by a tribunal before they can get married in the Catholic Church. Even those who have newly entered the Church, have been told by seasoned members that even though they’ve been married (for years and years and have kids) for the second time, they have to have their first marriage annulled before their second marriage can be blessed by the Chuch. Now, I’ve never seen any of this in real life, just on the forum, just saying since you’ve obviously missed those posts.

I do also know quite well that the Church does not impose the same rules on everyone, which makes things not only confusing, but takes away intended “bite”. We all know by common knowledge and history that many royalty and wealthy have been forced to marry against their full consent in the past and even to some extent in the present, and the Church recognizes those marriages as valid. We know that wouldn’t wash with commoners because full consent is an absolute requirement. So it’s kinda understandable why some people choose to ignore the Church’s teachings in some matters, whereas other matters that are consistent across the board are more seriously considered.

 

[inflight]

That’s what I always thought too. But a few of the more “seasoned” members have claimed that the Church does have jurisdiction over marriages conducted outside the Catholic Church. Well, first of all, they say the Church has jurisdiction over everything in the world, and everyone living in it, by default. Not sure I agree with that but whatever. Then they have said many times over and over again that one who is dating someone who has been married previously (outside the Church) has to have that previous marriage annulled before they can proceed in good conscience with the relationship. I’ve never seen the canon on it though.

.

Honestly, I would not consider claims by forum members( even seasoned) to be more valid than words of your priest. until yesterday I have never even heard about this and I highly suspect it is some confusion on the part of the presenters.
If CDF did not want to issue an opinion on a member of different Church and underlined that Catholic Church has no jurisdiction over that person ( I am talking about Vassula here) then it is even more expected that Catholic Church would not infringe on the matters of jurisdiction of the other Church as marriage clearly is.
I can only imagine how much shrieking there would be on a part of one particular Church f( where I am from) if Catholic one would try to issue “annulments” to the marriages conducted not in Catholic Church.

In today’s mode of ecumenism I do not suppose anybody in the Catholic Church would like to claim authority over somebody else’s turf.
Just sayin

Now, I’ve never seen any of this in real life, just on the forum, just saying since you’ve obviously missed those posts.

Exactly. Only on the forum never in real life. I was married in court when I was very young and divorced very quickly after and later married in the Catholic Church - nobody ever considered that previous marriage to be anything more than cohabitation.

 

[Rence]

Exactly. Only on the forum never in real life. I was married in court when I was very young and divorced very quickly after and later married in the Catholic Church - nobody ever considered that previous marriage to be anything more than cohabitation.

But were you Catholic at the time of your previous civil (court) marriage?

 

[Usige]

Not sacramental, but valid.

Christians marry validly and sacramentally.

Non-Christians marry validly.

A Christian and a non-Christian marry validly.

Well technically a professed atheist could have a sacramental marriage. I know plenty of atheist that have been baptized. I often like reminding them they’ve been claimed by Christ even if they reject Him.

Just for clarity I’d change Christian to baptized and non-Christian to unbaptized since it is baptismal state rather than practice that determines the sacramental nature of marriage.

 

[inflight]

But were you Catholic at the time of your previous civil (court) marriage?

I was, my husband was not

 

[Sooner87]

I am currently in the process of becoming a Catholic and was married outside of the church. I am in the middle of an annulment, so yes, The Church does grant annulments to those married outside the Catholic Church.

 

[Phemie]

I was, my husband was not

And that’s why your first “marriage” was considered cohabitation – as a Catholic you were bound to marry according to church law. Since you weren’t, your marriage was invalid and, depending on where you live, a recent certificate of baptism with no notation of marriage could have been sufficient to allow you to marry in the Church.

OTOH, the first marriages of non-Catholics is presumed valid by the Catholic Church based on natural law. That is why a divorced baptized non-Catholic who was married to another baptized person and who wants to either marry a Catholic or to become one must have the first marriage examined by the Marriage Tribunal and found invalid otherwise he/she can neither marry the Catholic nor become one.

A different process can happen if one or both parties was not baptized. In that case the first marriage, though valid, could be dissolved under certain conditions (Pauline & Petrine privilege).

 

[Sooner87]

And that’s why your first “marriage” was considered cohabitation – as a Catholic you were bound to marry according to church law. Since you weren’t, your marriage was invalid and, depending on where you live, a recent certificate of baptism with no notation of marriage could have been sufficient to allow you to marry in the Church.

OTOH, the first marriages of non-Catholics is presumed valid by the Catholic Church based on natural law. That is why a divorced baptized non-Catholic who was married to another baptized person and who wants to either marry a Catholic or to become one must have the first marriage examined by the Marriage Tribunal and found invalid otherwise he/she can neither marry the Catholic nor become one.

A different process can happen if one or both parties was not baptized. In that case the first marriage, though valid, could be dissolved under certain conditions (Pauline & Petrine privilege).

I think everything you posted was correct except for the bolded part. A “divorced baptized non-Catholic” can still enter The Church, they would just still be considered married until an annulment is granted.

 

[Phemie]

I think everything you posted was correct except for the bolded part. A “divorced baptized non-Catholic” can still enter The Church, they would just still be considered married until an annulment is granted.

Actually, what I should have written is a divorced and remarried baptized non-Catholic has to get an annulment and be in a valid marriage before entering the Church. Obviously simply being divorced is not an obstacle.

 

[runningdude]

Annulement by WHOM? Catholic Church does not have jurisdiction over the marriages conducted outside the Catholic Church.

The church can not issue an annulment to something it does not have jurisdiction over.

You are mistaken. The Church has universal jurisdiction, because its jurisdiction from directly from Jesus Christ. Jesus is Lord, even over Atheists.

I was not considering a Jewish marriage invalid, or Protestant, or whatever. For Jews, Protestants, or else. But not for a Catholic marrying there. still I can’t see how Catholic Church can issue an annulment for a Protestant who wants to become a Catholic and marry a Catholic girl when he has been divorced from his Protestant wife years ago and his Protestant church does not consider him still married and does not issue annulments - they recognize divorces.

Neither Jewish communities nor Protestant churches have authority to require their members to marry in a certain manner. These communities do not have the same authority as the Catholic Church; they are merely human institutions. Non-Catholics may marry using any ceremony they choose, even a mere “civil” ceremony in a courthouse or city clerk’s office.

Marriage between baptized Christians is insoluble. This is an objective reality taught by the Catholic Church. A Protestant Church that teaches its that its baptized members may divorce does them a great disservice, because this is factually untrue. The Catholic Church may investigate if a marriage between Protestants was properly entered into, because the validity of the marriage is separate from the religion of the allegedly married couple.