Rape/emergency contraception

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jack_hawkins said:
The medical profession doesn’t eliminate “pathology” very often.
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Doctor, it does all the time. Perhaps you need to speak with your surgical friends.
However contraception eliminates the health risks associated with pregnancy and so counts as a medical treatment under the definition normally used for medical treatment.
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Let’s be genuine here. First, most of the time this medication is used to prevent pregancy which has nothing to do with high risk patients. Secondly, even when such increased risks are an issue their use is not the only, or best, way to treat such problems.
 
jack_hawkins said:
Fix, you haven’t produced proof. Therefore I think it is reasonable to assume there is none. The rest of your post goes downhill from there, and amply illustrates that the “pro-life” camp believes in rhetoric before science and logic.
There is no proof that the COCP is an abortifacient. There is only a theory called the “hostile endometrium” theory.
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There is no direct proof as has been posted several times. Such proof may only be obtainable through evil means. There is plenty of indirect evidence. You reject that evidence not because it is insufficient, but it does not serve your purpose.
 
jack_hawkins said:
A good example of the way the “pro-life” movement tries to bully people into accepting its own position regardless of how illogical it is.
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Jack, in your profile you list yourself as an RCIA Catechumenate. Before you continue onto the path of either recieving Holy Communion, and recieving the Sacrament of Confermation, I would make sure your heart and mind is in Communion with the Church that you are trying to join.

Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church…Paragraphs 2270-2296.

If your RCIA team tells you that you have a choice in the belief of what is in the Catechism, then they are not in Communion with the Holy See and should be reported to the Bishop. If the Bishop is not inline with the Holy See then the Bishop should be reported to Rome.

If I feel something is wrong in what is being taught by the Church (and I mean a teaching fully in communion with the Holy See), it is my issue to find out where my mistake is and further study why the Church has taken the stance that it has. Ultimately, I always find that the Church is right, and I was wrong. You may want to take this tact as well.

But if you can’t resolve your issue on Contraception and Abortion with real Catholic teaching and morality, stop what you are doing. Do not present yourself for Holy Communion or any other Sacraments as you are NOT in communion with the Church. Until you repent on your stance, accept the teachings of the Church, confess your sin to a priest and recieve absolution (or receive baptism), you should not progress with RCIA.
 
With all due respect, please don’t give me unsolicited spiritual advice or presume to know my position with God:thumbsup:
 
fix said:
There is no direct proof as has been posted several times. Such proof may only be obtainable through evil means. There is plenty of indirect evidence. You reject that evidence not because it is insufficient, but it does not serve your purpose.
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Oh a mind reader now!
“Pro-life” in action - if you disagree you must have an agenda other than the truth!
Actually evidence could be found, and it would have nothing to do with “evil means”, whatever that is. I think lack of evidence is perfectly sufficient grounds with which to disagree with something.👍
 
jack_hawkins said:
Oh a mind reader now!
“Pro-life” in action - if you disagree you must have an agenda other than the truth!
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Yes, in this case to disagree when life begins is hardly a simple matter. It may be due to things other than a counter agenda though.
Actually evidence could be found, and it would have nothing to do with “evil means”, whatever that is. I think lack of evidence is perfectly sufficient grounds with which to disagree with something.👍
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What is the evidence?
 
jack_hawkins said:
With all due respect, please don’t give me unsolicited spiritual advice or presume to know my position with God:thumbsup:
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Sorry Jack If I have struck a nerve. You are asking to be accepted into a Church that has certain moral values. You do not accept them. Why would you want to be a part of something that will ALWAY declare you being in the wrong.

I am am an RCIA team member in my Church. I am my brothers keeper. It is my duty as a Christian and a Catholic to point out sin and error where it exists.

We have way too many “cafeteria catholics” already. We don’t need more. When you join the Church, you are saying, “I accept your teachings, and I submit to them”. If you present yourself for Holy Communion and or Confirmation with your current set of beliefs, you are not only committing a grave sin, but you are being a hypocrite.
 
There’s a big big difference between arguing with the science, and arguing with the morality.
I am pro-life, I just can’t agree with what in some cases is junk science. Some people here actually go past what the church teaches anyway, giving the impression the Church says ensoulment happens here when in fact the Church has not stated that.
I have the integrity to be no hypocrite, and I would have no problem discussing with the priest my views if I felt it necessary. I don’t however feel that because I don’t choose to live on certain terms I cannot be a Catholic. In other words when people say “my way or the highway” I say “false dichotomy”. Not a catchy reworking of a classic song, but it works for me!
 
jack_hawkins said:
I don’t however feel that because I don’t choose to live on certain terms I cannot be a Catholic. In other words when people say “my way or the highway” I say “false dichotomy”. Not a catchy reworking of a classic song, but it works for me!
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You seem to be under the illusion that the Catholic Church is some sort of a democracy. "Get enough people to believe as I believe and it all changes…NO! It is not. It is a benevolent Monarchy with Jesus Christ as the Monarch and the Holy See as the Vicar and Chancelor. It is not going to, can’t, and won’t change its stance on abortion or contraception no matter how many believe in our current society that its “ok”.

By your continued written stance, you have already excommunicated yourself. The Church didn’t do it…You have.
 
jburgherr said:
You seem to be under the illusion that the Catholic Church is some sort of a democracy. "Get enough people to believe as I believe and it all changes…NO! It is not. It is a benevolent Monarchy with Jesus Christ as the Monarch and the Holy See as the Vicar and Chancelor. It is not going to, can’t, and won’t change its stance on abortion or contraception no matter how many believe in our current society that its “ok”.

By your continued written stance, you have already excommunicated yourself. The Church didn’t do it…You have.
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Jay:

While you mean well, this is precisely the reason why we lose existing and prospective Catholics, the “my way or the highway” judgemental attitude.

The vast majority of Catholics have problems and/or issues with 1 or more of the Church’s teachings. I know I do, but while we recognize we may have some issues, the Church still comes closest in our minds to what God has in mind, and we still want to remain a part of it.

Encourage, don’t discourage. Emphasize positive things, don’t tell somebody he is excommunicated if he has an issue with a teaching. Who is going to respond well to that?
 
jack_hawkins said:
There’s a big big difference between arguing with the science, and arguing with the morality.
I am pro-life, I just can’t agree with what in some cases is junk science. Some people here actually go past what the church teaches anyway, giving the impression the Church says ensoulment happens here when in fact the Church has not stated that.
I have the integrity to be no hypocrite, and I would have no problem discussing with the priest my views if I felt it necessary. I don’t however feel that because I don’t choose to live on certain terms I cannot be a Catholic. In other words when people say “my way or the highway” I say “false dichotomy”. Not a catchy reworking of a classic song, but it works for me!
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Yes, that ensoulment idea was mine, and I apologize for misstating (I’m sure I heard it somewhere and never bothered to look it up, sorry)…however, upon further reading you (and I 😃 ) will find that the Church’s position doesn’t depend on ensoulement, it depends on the fact that a natural process of life has started and we, as humans, are not to interfere. Since ensoulment can’t be scientifically tested or proven, the Church chooses to argue differently and logically (though ensoulement certainly is a part). After 2000 years, I’m sure they have something to teach all of us.

Jennifer
 
jburgherr said:
You seem to be under the illusion that the Catholic Church is some sort of a democracy. "Get enough people to believe as I believe and it all changes…NO! It is not. It is a benevolent Monarchy with Jesus Christ as the Monarch and the Holy See as the Vicar and Chancelor. It is not going to, can’t, and won’t change its stance on abortion or contraception no matter how many believe in our current society that its “ok”.

By your continued written stance, you have already excommunicated yourself. The Church didn’t do it…You have.
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TY for your kind Christian words. You will have to answer to your God for what you say, so I will refrain from further comment:thumbsup:
 
mikew262 said:
Jay:

While you mean well, this is precisely the reason why we lose existing and prospective Catholics, the “my way or the highway” judgemental attitude.

The vast majority of Catholics have problems and/or issues with 1 or more of the Church’s teachings. I know I do, but while we recognize we may have some issues, the Church still comes closest in our minds to what God has in mind, and we still want to remain a part of it.

Encourage, don’t discourage. Emphasize positive things, don’t tell somebody he is excommunicated if he has an issue with a teaching. Who is going to respond well to that?
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If I wasn’t confident in my faith, Jay’s comments would certainly ensure I never darkened the door of a Catholic church again - if only for fear I would be burnt at the stake!
 
Jennifer_J said:
Yes, that ensoulment idea was mine, and I apologize for misstating (I’m sure I heard it somewhere and never bothered to look it up, sorry)…however, upon further reading you (and I 😃 ) will find that the Church’s position doesn’t depend on ensoulement, it depends on the fact that a natural process of life has started and we, as humans, are not to interfere. Since ensoulment can’t be scientifically tested or proven, the Church chooses to argue differently and logically (though ensoulement certainly is a part). After 2000 years, I’m sure they have something to teach all of us.

Jennifer
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Ok, fair comment. Again this comes down to the vexatious issue of definitions. If one defines human life as starting when ensoulment occurs, then there are all sorts of problems practically speaking.
I have no wish to subvert the prohibition on abortion at all, as I stated (I think on another thread) my mother was offered an abortion when she was pregnant with me and even if that wasn’t the case I object to abortion. Even I fell away from the church I still had a deep-rooted objection to abortion.
 
Then it seems to me the question, for you, is are you going to submit to the 2000 years of Church teaching? Sometimes I think when we argue about such things, we forget the Church has wrestled with these issues MUCH longer than we have, much more thoroughly than we ever could and with the assurance of the guidance of the Holy Spirit in such matters… It seems to me we should study what the Church teaches in her wisdom and try to understand. If we don’t understand, we submit to Her teachings and pray for understanding. When it comes down to it, it doesn’t matter what theologians think, what scientists think, what politicians think, what pro-lifers or pro-abortionists think, but what the Church teaches and has taught consistantly through the ages. Through Christ and the Holy Spirit she won’t be led astray and if we cling tight, neither will we.

God bless,
Jennifer
 
The church’s teachings are irrelevant to my wife and I as she will be having a hysterectomy!
I have no argument with the general thrust of the church’s position in any case, I am more concerned with people who would find themselves in difficult situations. As far as I can see, the church is actually more open to individual situations than some people make out. If I had a problem I would go and speak to the priest about it rather than talk on here or any other Catholic forum.
I think we are probably in more agreement than it might seem at first glance
Glod Bless,
John
 
If she’s having the hysterectomy to cure a problem then the Church has no problem with this. If it’s to not have anymore children, then the Church sees that as a problem.

God bless her, as not matter what, this is a difficult and life changing surgery.

God bless,
Jennifer
 
my wife and I would dearly like children
PS no doctor would perform a hysterectomy to sterilise someone
 
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