Rape in marriage possible?

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You can only use defensive actions including violence to defend yourself.
Absolutely NO!

Self-defense is allowed the moment someone else acts illegally against your rights or attacks your rights. You have property right to the beer in my hand and did not give consent, so you are allowed to take it from my hand. You have property right to the sofa and did not give consent to sitting me on it, so you are allowed to remove me from that sofa.

See it this way, if i would next get up and say “I swear, i will not do any physical harm to you, i just want to destroy all your property.” and next would smash your TV and then your refrigirato, you would not be in any danger (assuming i do not violate the safety standards one should observe when smashing things) and yet when i move on to smash your oven, you would be allowed to act in self-defense by applying adequate and proportional force against me, e.g. holding me, so i could no longer smash your furniture.

The only difference between my sitting on the sofa, running around and smashing things or jumping up and attacking you, lie in the methods and means you are allowed to apply against me. Gunning me down, since i sit on your sofa would not be ok (except maybe in texas), gunning me down when i attack you is ok and gunning me down while i demolish your furniture depends a bit on circumstances, alternatives, relative financial damage and so on.

Self-defense is not only allowed against violent acts.

(I try to be rather clear in this point, because the mistake that only violence allows for self-defense is a very often repeated mistake and this error has serious political consequences in the long run for pubic order.)
In the example you gave, I would call the police. I would not be have been subject to violence or in fear of violence. I could not and would take a machete and kill you. I may think you were insane.
A machete would bedrastically disporportionate. But even if you call the police, the minutes i continue to sit around on your sofa drinking your beer is a continued illegal attack against your rights, which you are allowed to use self-defense against, if the means are not drastically disproporionate. (E.g. if you can only get me out by braking my bones, you probably should accept the illegal attack till police arrives, but if it can be done with little physical harm to me, you can do, even if the police arrives in 5mins.)
A husband does not one day decide to be violent and abusive.
If he suffers from a serious mental disease that could happen, though unlikely. But unlikely is irrelvant when discussion absolutes like “Contraception is always immoral inside marriage.”
An abused wife may have to fear not only rape but grievious harm and death.
Contraception wont be of much help. She should leave - the best defence.
But contraception might be efficient to keep his sperm out of her body. Her body, she has a right to decide what gets inside, insofar the use of this right does not interfere with the rights of other humans (which why only non-abortive contraception can be an option).

And because way better defensive options exist, a defensive options does not stop being a defensive option. And it does not change its moral character.

@the one who selected the second option in the poll:
As a general principle or only in the sense of a personal choice with no relevance for others?
 
Absolutely NO!
I have no firm opinion on this. I have posted about a thread on mission nuns being allowed to use contraception in areas of the world where rape is very possible. These nuns stay to do God’s work. An abused wife can and should run.
 
There is not denying the evil of sexual assault. Not down playing it at all.

But also …Marriage is a sacrament (for Christians) and a high good. Important even for the raising of the Children.

We have spoken of all of this in fictional theory.

Actual marriages …actual events…have to be taken on case by case. With prudence, prayer, counsel etc.

Again I am not talking about rape (such is by stranger or date rape etc…as you know I do not use the term here). I am talking about spousal -abuse of a sexual nature. Granted there extreme happenings which can mean a life time separation. But there can also be lesser events which call for counseling, healing, conversion, perhaps alcohol rehab etc etc…but which may do not result in a lifetime separation.
While I agree that it is for the wife to decide whether to stay in the marriage perhaps after the husband has sought counselling/treatment, rape is rape. I am very adamant about this point. I am told that in Islam, there can never be rape by the husband as the husband has a right whatever. I know this is not what our religion is about and this should be always be clear that ours is not a religion of force and violence, even in marriage. I am still unclear as to your not wanting to call spousal sexual assault ‘rape’.
 
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Bookcat:
There is not denying the evil of sexual assault. Not down playing it at all.

But also …Marriage is a sacrament (for Christians) and a high good. Important even for the raising of the Children.

We have spoken of all of this in fictional theory.

Actual marriages …actual events…have to be taken on case by case. With prudence, prayer, counsel etc.

Again I am not talking about rape (such is by stranger or date rape etc…as you know I do not use the term here). I am talking about spousal -abuse of a sexual nature. Granted there extreme happenings which can mean a life time separation. But there can also be lesser events which call for counseling, healing, conversion, perhaps alcohol rehab etc etc…but which may do not result in a lifetime separation.
While I agree that it is for the wife to decide whether to stay in the marriage perhaps after the husband has sought counselling/treatment, rape is rape. I am very adamant about this point. I am told that in Islam, there can never be rape by the husband as the husband has a right whatever. I know this is not what our religion is about and this should be always be clear that ours is not a religion of force and violence, even in marriage. I am still unclear as to your not wanting to call spousal sexual assault ‘rape’.

I most certainly agree with severus68. Whether the man is the husband or not — rape is rape.
 
rape is rape. I am very adamant about this point. I am told that in Islam, there can never be rape by the husband as the husband has a right whatever. I know this is not what our religion is about and this should be always be clear that ours is not a religion of force and violence, even in marriage. I am still unclear as to your not wanting to call spousal sexual assault ‘rape’.
We are not discussing other religions here (I do not know what the case is there by the way).

I have explained why I do not call it rape above.

I am not going to start calling Adultery --“fornication” either.
My point is that the term rape just does not really fit in such an act of violence by a spouse. Just as I can not commit an act of “fornication” cause I am now married. It would be adultery.

Perhaps a good term would be “spousal sexual assault” or similar.
And I am not in any way lessening the evil of the action…
Oh and I think one could say that “spousal sexual assault” can be more evil than rape. Due to the reality of marriage…

Just as adultery is more evil than fornication…
 
I have no firm opinion on this. I have posted about a thread on mission nuns being allowed to use contraception in areas of the world where rape is very possible. These nuns stay to do God’s work. An abused wife can and should run.
That is untrue. The Church has never sanctioned something like that. Please direct me to the Church document supporting your claim.
 
**To me rape in marriage is the vilest, cruelest form of sexual assault by a non-parent. ** Your husband is supposed to love you and protect you. I can’t tell you all how awful it is when that trust is broken.

I think the consequences should be worse than for nonspousal rape.

Ditto.
 
I most certainly agree with severus68. Whether the man is the husband or not — rape is rape.
If the case, then the husband should be reported to the police, prosecuted, put in jail for 25+ years, and remain on the sex offender list (if the particular state has one) for the rest of his life…no if, ands, or buts…just like everyone else.
 
If the case, then the husband should be reported to the police, prosecuted, put in jail for 25+ years, and remain on the sex offender list (if the particular state has one) for the rest of his life…no if, ands, or buts…just like everyone else.

When the shoe fits – let the man wear it.
 
That is untrue. The Church has never sanctioned something like that. Please direct me to the Church document supporting your claim.
we should be carefull spreading things against Catholic teachings. these matters with the nunes and with marriage rape are only between the couple or people involved, the priest, and God. all priest etc are human too and arn’t infalible. I know what the bible says about the different kinds of contraception and therefore I could never use them. the Bible is Gods word and what a Priest says is his word and if its not in line with the bible I would question that Priest’s “truth” and faithfullness to the real truth. its unnecessary debate this subject it could lead people to detest the true teachings. marriage rape is very rare and so personal and needs to be taken case by case by professionals. I don’t feel it should be debated in general terms because each case is different. even personal storys on CA are questionable we don’t know all the details nor should we.
 
That is untrue. The Church has never sanctioned something like that. Please direct me to the Church document supporting your claim.
What is untrue? I referred to a thread. I did not give my opinion.
 
Did you not read Dignitatis Personae which is the instruction released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? It updates Donum Vitae.

Extract from Dignitatis Personae:

QUOTE

New forms of interception and contragestation

There are methods of preventing pregnancy which act after fertilization, when the embryo is already constituted.

“Such methods are interceptive if they interfere with the embryo before implantation” (n. 23); for example, the IUD (intrauterine device) and the so-called ‘morning-after pills’ (footnote 42). They are “contragestative if they cause the elimination of the embryo once implanted” (n. 23); for example, the pharmaceutical known commercially as RU-486 (footnote 43). Even if such interceptives may not cause an abortion every time they are used, also because conception does not occur after every act of sexual intercourse, it must be noted, however, that “anyone who seeks to prevent the implantation of an embryo which may possibly have been conceived and who therefore either requests or prescribes such a pharmaceutical, generally intends abortion”. In the case of contragestatives “what takes place in reality is the abortion of an embryo which has just implanted…** the use of means of interception and contragestation fall within the sin of abortion and are gravely immoral” **(n. 23).

UNQUOTE

The official Church position is that Plan B is FORBIDDEN. That overrules any group of bishops in a country who may think otherwise.
Perhaps that’s why the Bishops said you have to do 1) a pregnancy test first to make sure the rape victim is not already pregnant from before the rape, and 2) an ovulation test to make sure she hasn’t arleady ovulated.

Again, the Bishops are right about this one. I totally agree with them. And I don’t think they’re in error at all.
 
“seperation for at least a time”? Only a masochist would go back to a husband who rapes/abuses her. Rape is a heinous crime, it is an assault of the body, mind and dignity of a person. For spousal rape add betrayal of trust and love.
It’s obvious to me that some people don’t take rape as seriously as I do (I can’t speak for you, you can speak for yourself 🙂 ) But that’s not new depending on the environment. But to give it a lesser “description” just because the rapist is spouse is hineous in itself to me. Rape is rape, and it doesn’t matter who does it. It’s not the same as fornication, which has it’s own definition, which is “sex outside of marriage”, and it’s not the same as adultery, which has it’s own definition, which is “sex with someone other that their spouse”. Domestic violence can include rape and beating, but rape is not simply “domestic violence”, or simply “sexual assault”, which doesn’t have to include rape. Rape is forced sex, period. And yes, only a woman with no sense of self worth and extremely low self esteem would actually go back to a rapist. That woman needs some serious counseling and intervention.
 
What is untrue? I referred to a thread. I did not give my opinion.
I see. Sorry. I misunderstood. Can you then direct me to the thread. I am willing to bet that nobody could come up with anything from the Church to support the claim by whoever made the claim (I’m not referring to you).
 
I see. Sorry. I misunderstood. Can you then direct me to the thread. I am willing to bet that nobody could come up with anything from the Church to support the claim by whoever made the claim (I’m not referring to you).
I will try to find it, I did not follow it to the end but I myself would be interested in going back. It was to do about rape I think.
 
In terms of marriage I would use the term “sexual assault” from the theological terms point of view… and I think the legal term should likewise use it. Though I would still keep “rape” side by side with the term in the case what we would ordinarily call rape.

Technically in marriage it is not “rape” any more than “adultery” is “fornication”…
I think the reason your position has raised so many objections is that those who object (including me) are concerned that the use of a separate term to describe sexual assault in the case of marriage will be used as a justification to treat the act significantly different in the case of marriage. In other words, does the recognition of “spousal sexual assault” as distinct from “rape” carry any consequences? Are there any remedies that are open to a women who has been or is about to be raped that are not open to a women who has been or is about to be sexually assaulted by her spouse?

If the distinction does carry some consequences, then let’s bring them out and discuss them. If the distinction does not carry any consequences, then I suppose it does not matter if you want to keep the two terms distinct. But a time may come when someone will forget that the two terms are supposed to be treated the same, and then we will have some trouble.
 
I will try to find it, I did not follow it to the end but I myself would be interested in going back. It was to do about rape I think.
It is a thread under Moral Theology called “What is your opinion of the use of birth control in anticipation of rape?”
 
I think the reason your position has raised so many objections is that those who object (including me) are concerned that the use of a separate term to describe sexual assault in the case of marriage will be used as a justification to treat the act significantly different in the case of marriage. In other words, does the recognition of “spousal sexual assault” as distinct from “rape” carry any consequences? Are there any remedies that are open to a women who has been or is about to be raped that are not open to a women who has been or is about to be sexually assaulted by her spouse?

If the distinction does carry some consequences, then let’s bring them out and discuss them. If the distinction does not carry any consequences, then I suppose it does not matter if you want to keep the two terms distinct. But a time may come when someone will forget that the two terms are supposed to be treated the same, and then we will have some trouble.
Good post.
 
Oh and I think one could say that “spousal sexual assault” can be more **evil **than rape. Due to the reality of marriage…

Just as adultery is more evil than fornication…
Similar to how adultery can be more evil than fornication.
 
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