Rape in marriage possible?

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Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: “It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,”
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but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.
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The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband.
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A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
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Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control
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What I have not seen address is the question does a spouse have the right to say no? The law says yes but it does not speak to the morality.
Is it moral for a spouse to say no.?
When one gets married they relinquish their rights over their body to their spouse. According to Paul, only by mutual consent may one abstain.
Might there be a legitimate reason to say no? Yes.
Is the decision to say no absolute?
When a couple marry they are giving the right over their body to their spouse.
In a rape, the perpetrator has no right to his victim. In a marriage, this is not true. Spouses have rights over each other.
So is the person who says no and does not fulfill their duty to their spouse sinning?
 
adrift said:
What I have not seen address is the question does a spouse have the right to say no? The law says yes but it does not speak to the morality.
Is it moral for a spouse to say no.?
When one gets married they relinquish their rights over their body to their spouse. According to Paul, only by mutual consent may one abstain.
Might there be a legitimate reason to say no? Yes.
Is the decision to say no absolute?
When a couple marry they are giving the right over their body to their spouse.
In a rape, the perpetrator has no right to his victim. In a marriage, this is not true. Spouses have rights over each other.
So is the person who says no and does not fulfill their duty to their spouse sinning?
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Whether or not the spouse who says “no” is sinning, this has no bearing on whether the man who forces himself on his spouse is committing rape or spousal sexual assault.
 
adrift said:
What I have not seen address is the question does a spouse have the right to say no? The law says yes but it does not speak to the morality.
Is it moral for a spouse to say no.?
When one gets married they relinquish their rights over their body to their spouse. According to Paul, only by mutual consent may one abstain.
Might there be a legitimate reason to say no? Yes.
Is the decision to say no absolute?
When a couple marry they are giving the right over their body to their spouse.
In a rape, the perpetrator has no right to his victim. In a marriage, this is not true. Spouses have rights over each other.
So is the person who says no and does not fulfill their duty to their spouse sinning?
Click to expand...
Regardless of whether a person who says no and does not fulfil their duty to their spouse sinning, the answer isn’t rape. If a spouse is ‘wrongfully’ withholding sex from their spouse, cruel violence is not the answer. A spouse has no right to force sex on their spouse. There are legitimate reasons to say no, and there might be times when no is not legitimate, but that never makes rape right. Spouses have rights over each other’s body, but not the right to force sex against an unwilling spouse. Consent is still required. Words can’t even describe how repugnant the thought is of forced sex in a marriage bed. It has no place in the marriage bed, especially a Sacramental marriage.

Thank God the law recognizes this and punishes the rapist, regardless of whether he is the victim’s spouse or not. Thank God!
 
Rence said:
Consent is still required. Words can’t even describe how repugnant the thought is of forced sex in a marriage bed. It has no place in the marriage bed, especially a Sacramental marriage.

Thank God the law recognizes this and punishes the rapist, regardless of whether he is the victim’s spouse or not. Thank God!
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Consent was given at the wedding vows.
So what you are saying is that two wrongs are being committed.
A spouse that forces that which was already consented to and a spouse refusing what already was agreed to.
 
adrift said:
Consent was given at the wedding vows.
So what you are saying is that two wrongs are being committed.
A spouse that forces that which was already consented to and a spouse refusing what already was agreed to.
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I am not sure you understand what rape really is. It is not like the husband comes home and tries to seduce his wife. She says,“No, honey not tonight.” Then he forces himself on her. I have been pressured to have sex. That is not the same as rape.

A friend of mine is very controlling and has a temper. He and his wife were arguing in their room one night and he became angry. He lost it and threw her to the bed and raped his wife. Do you think his wife sinned? I don’t. And this is his side of the story not hers.
 
adrift said:
Consent was given at the wedding vows.
So what you are saying is that two wrongs are being committed.
A spouse that forces that which was already consented to and a spouse refusing what already was agreed to.
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No, that’s not what I’m saying. Don’t put words in my mouth. Consent has to be given each time, otherwise, why bother asking. One does not consent to be raped when they get married, that is a really disturbing and warped view of Sacramental marriage. And this is a disturbing thread. Thank God consent to be raped when getting married isn’t Church teaching. And Thank God, the secular authorities wouldn’t care if it was.
 
cviolette said:
I am not sure you understand what rape really is. It is not like the husband comes home and tries to seduce his wife. She says,“No, honey not tonight.” Then he forces himself on her. I have been pressured to have sex. That is not the same as rape.

A friend of mine is very controlling and has a temper. He and his wife were arguing in their room one night and he became angry. He lost it and threw her to the bed and raped his wife. Do you think his wife sinned? I don’t. And this is his side of the story not hers.
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That’s unforgiveable. What was his motive for sharing his behavior with you?
 
adrift said:
What I have not seen address is the question does a spouse have the right to say no? The law says yes but it does not speak to the morality.
Is it moral for a spouse to say no.?
When one gets married they relinquish their rights over their body to their spouse. According to Paul, only by mutual consent may one abstain.
Might there be a legitimate reason to say no? Yes.
Is the decision to say no absolute?
When a couple marry they are giving the right over their body to their spouse.
In a rape, the perpetrator has no right to his victim. In a marriage, this is not true. Spouses have rights over each other.
So is the person who says no and does not fulfill their duty to their spouse sinning?
Click to expand...
Yes the wife has a right to marital relations as does the husband. It is indeed a grave obligation (though there can be venial sin too in various circumstances).

(One though that also can be refused too in certain cases…such as serious things such as adultery etc (see other thread with my posts there for more).)

Yes a spouse can thus sin by “refusing” without the right reasons…

But for the other to then “force” the intercourse would a sin on their part.

In such “marital sexual assault” or “forced intercourse” (I do not use the term rape) it is not the question of a “right” to marital relations …but rather the forced or violent nature of this action.

An action that is contrary to the nature of marriage and the marital act. It is thus not “marital relations” in that sense either.

And can thus be more evil even than “rape” (which by nature involves those who are not married just as adultery involves those who are married and fornication involves those who are not).

To use a pale analogy…(for it is marriage we are dealing with…persons not things…and for Christians a Sacrament!). I have a right to my money in the bank. But I do not have the right break into the bank and take it.
 
Rence said:
Regardless of whether a person who says no and does not fulfil their duty to their spouse sinning, the answer isn’t rape. If a spouse is ‘wrongfully’ withholding sex from their spouse, cruel violence is not the answer. A spouse has no right to force sex on their spouse. There are legitimate reasons to say no, and there might be times when no is not legitimate, but that never makes rape right. Spouses have rights over each other’s body, but not the right to force sex against an unwilling spouse. Consent is still required. Words can’t even describe how repugnant the thought is of forced sex in a marriage bed. It has no place in the marriage bed, especially a Sacramental marriage.

Thank God the law recognizes this and punishes the rapist, regardless of whether he is the victim’s spouse or not. Thank God!
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I agree eith you, totally.👍👍👍
 
cviolette said:
I am not sure you understand what rape really is. It is not like the husband comes home and tries to seduce his wife. She says,“No, honey not tonight.” Then he forces himself on her. I have been pressured to have sex. That is not the same as rape.

A friend of mine is very controlling and has a temper. He and his wife were arguing in their room one night and he became angry. He lost it and threw her to the bed and raped his wife. Do you think his wife sinned? I don’t. And this is his side of the story not hers.
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That is what is about, control, and power. Your friend is so very wrong, has commited a great sin and a crime.

I think any force is wrong. Might does not mean right.
 
adrift said:
When one gets married they relinquish their rights over their body to their spouse. According to Paul, only by mutual consent may one abstain.
In a marriage, this is not true. Spouses have rights over each other.
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Pauls words are not of much help, because when one assumes, that the wifes body belongs to the husband and the other way round, he has no right to use his body to have sex with her, because it isn’t his body (at least according to Pauls words).

E.g. to make it obviously stupid:
He “Lets have sex now, you are not allowed to say no, because your body is mine.”. She “Ok,honey, but first you scrub all floors, you are not allowed to say no, because your body is mine and i just decide now, that it should scrub floors now.”

So we have to do some interpretation and that will have among other things the result, that his right to her has some limitations. Among these are his vows and as they require him to treat her with respect, violence would breach this vows and therefore while employing violence he has no right to her, until he changes his behavior.

Therefore for example she is also allowed to deny intercourse in case he commited adultery, because that is also a breach of his vows.
 
Rence said:
Regardless of whether a person who says no and does not fulfil their duty to their spouse sinning, the answer isn’t rape. If a spouse is ‘wrongfully’ withholding sex from their spouse, cruel violence is not the answer. A spouse has no right to force sex on their spouse. There are legitimate reasons to say no, and there might be times when no is not legitimate, but that never makes rape right. Spouses have rights over each other’s body, but not the right to force sex against an unwilling spouse. Consent is still required. Words can’t even describe how repugnant the thought is of forced sex in a marriage bed. It has no place in the marriage bed, especially a Sacramental marriage.

Thank God the law recognizes this and punishes the rapist, regardless of whether he is the victim’s spouse or not. Thank God!
Click to expand...
👍👍👍
 
severus68 said:
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cviolette:
I am not sure you understand what rape really is. It is not like the husband comes home and tries to seduce his wife. She says,“No, honey not tonight.” Then he forces himself on her. I have been pressured to have sex. That is not the same as rape.

A friend of mine is very controlling and has a temper. He and his wife were arguing in their room one night and he became angry. He lost it and threw her to the bed and raped his wife. Do you think his wife sinned? I don’t. And this is his side of the story not hers.
Click to expand...
That is what is about, control, and power. Your friend is so very wrong, has commited a great sin and a crime.

I think any force is wrong. Might does not mean right.
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Ditto.
 
Rence said:
That’s unforgiveable. What was his motive for sharing his behavior with you?
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He returned to God and changed. It happened 15 years earlier and his wife was still have problems dealing with it. He didn’t know how he could repair his marriage. Get her to trust him again. He was looking for advice on how to fix things. But really, it is one of those things that could not be fixed. I do think he has changed but he still has anger and control issues. I tell him that he needs to fix those issues before getting in a serious relationship again but he says he is just a typical man. We have argued about this many times. Especially when he gets controlling with me. He is very stubborn.
 
cviolette said:
He returned to God and changed. It happened 15 years earlier and his wife was still have problems dealing with it. He didn’t know how he could repair his marriage. Get her to trust him again. He was looking for advice on how to fix things. But really, it is one of those things that could not be fixed. I do think he has changed but he still has anger and control issues. I tell him that he needs to fix those issues before getting in a serious relationship again but he says he is just a typical man. We have argued about this many times. Especially when he gets controlling with me. He is very stubborn.
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I can understand his wife. Unfortunately your friend is still in denial when he says he is just a typical man. He can never fix things with that mentality.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas distinguishes rape, a species of lust, from the violence or seduction that may be associated with it (“Whether rape is a species of lust, distinct from seduction?”). “Rape is unlawful sexual intercourse,” unlawful
sometimes both towards the virgin and towards her father; and sometimes towards the father and not to the virgin, for instance if she allows herself to be taken away by force from her father’s house. …] ometimes a maid is taken away by force from her parents’ house, and is forcibly violated: while sometimes, though taken away by force, she is not forcibly violated, but of her own consent, whether by act of fornication or by the act of marriage: for the conditions of rape remain no matter how force is employed.
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He goes on to say:
The man who is just married has, in virtue of the betrothal, a certain right in her: wherefore, although he sins by using violence, he is not guilty of the crime of rape.
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Catholic90 said:
Rape is violence. Rape is a crime of power.

If a husband overpowers his wife and forces intercourse against her wishes, it is rape.
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Violence and contrary to marriage …sinful etc…yes most certainly.

Rape no.

Neither is it fornication nor murder.
 
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