Rape Within Marriage?

[larsenl1]

I would have to guess without any more facts, that in general terms, rape is much more than convincing a spouse to agree to intercourse, which may include whooing and pleading that are verbal and should of course be loving. Rape is an act of anger, aggression, and control. It may include physical assault, bruising and injury to the person. If there is such violence in the home, there may be violence in other areas too, control about leaving the house, control over phone calls etc. This is not a healthy relationship.

If the wife says Don’t touch me or Leave me alone, probably even shouting at this point, the husband would be obligated to stop his advances and retreat. There are problems deeper than a man wanting to make love to his wife.

Likewise, a wife manually causing a physical arousal and copulating with husband while he may be sleeping or inebriated, without his actual consent, would be grave sin. Wives should not seek control over husband.

Neither spouse can use the other spouse as an object to obtain selfish pleasure. But as another poster has said, that is another discussion topic, different than the original question which suggested violence was or could be perpetrated against another.

 

[Jane_of_Arc]

I am confused by what you are saying. Are there times then when a ‘good’ husband may think of raping his wife?

Since practicing NFP, illness &/or physical/mental exhaustion would be the only reasons that a Catholic woman would want or need to not make love with the man she chose to live her life with, to procreate & raise her children with, I guess your posts are “confusing” me???

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Since practicing NFP, illness &/or physical/mental exhaustion would be the only reasons that a Catholic woman would want or need to not make love with the man she chose to live her life with, to procreate & raise her children with, I guess your posts are “confusing” me???

Not necessarily.
What if the husband likes to hurt his wife during sex?
What if the wife has a medical condition that makes vaginal sex painful (or even dangerous) for her?
What if the wife just isn’t attracted to her husband anymore (assuming she ever was)?
What if the wife doesn’t want to (ever) have sex due to fear of pregnancy?

 

[Bookcat]

What if the husband likes to hurt his wife during sex? not good–such needs to cease
What if the wife has a medical condition that makes vaginal sex painful (or even dangerous) for her? there are ways to overcome the first
What if the wife just isn’t attracted to her husband anymore (assuming she ever was)?lack of “attraction” is not a good reason
What if the wife doesn’t want to (ever) have sex due to fear of pregnancy? she needs to seek good counsel in overcoming this --for marital relations are part of marriage…

 

[JRKH]

Rights still remain. As do obligations. We are to go to Mass out of love…but there is also the Obligation there.

Re: obligations (like mass attendance…I would refer anyone to St Paul’s great Discourse in 1 Cor 13 and the number of times he says, "If I do (this or that)…but have not love I am nothing…
If we have not Love - nothing else matters. This is important to any conversation we have here.
I don’t really care for the terms “Rights and obligations” in relation to Catholic marriage because they are not very good terms IMHO for what a Catholic marriage should be.
But if we DO use them lets remember that the First right of each spouse is to be treated with Love and respect. The First obligation of the other is to give their spouse that Love and respect to which they have a right.

I think that Nate’s posts have been misread here. He is not saying the husband has the right to “force” his wife to have intercourse. Or to “sexually assault” her.

Well He asked about how to understand 1 Cor 7:3. The purpose of my response was to provide guidance in understanding the verse.

While there is the reality of rights and obligations --there is no question in his mind or in mine that the what must be of great importance in marriage is “love”. They must live the vocation of Marriage which involves love…self gift …self sacrifice etc.

Change that to greatest importance is Love and you’ve nailed it.

As you would note-- Jesus tells us this is his commandment --love one another.

It is the command that underpins all other commands.

One final thought on this matter is that we have to remember that, rape, sexual assault, whatever term is used, it remains assault.
It is not about about love, or rights or obligations. It’s about power, subjugation, anger, lust and possibly other disordered issues. The one thing that sexual assault is NOT about is sex.
Therefore the so called conjugal rights do not even come into play in my opinion. Assault is assault is assault - and is a grave - even mortal - violation of God’s Law.

Peace
James

 

[severus68]

Since practicing NFP, illness &/or physical/mental exhaustion would be the only reasons that a Catholic woman would want or need to not make love with the man she chose to live her life with, to procreate & raise her children with, I guess your posts are “confusing” me???

Really? My apologies. So I will make my question clear - Do you think it is ok foor a man to force his wife to have sex when she does not want to other than for the excusable reasons you have given and infidelity of the husband?

 

[severus68]

I am afraid I am not one to “coin terms”. It is possible that such a term already is in use.

I have been calling it spousal sexual assault or the like.

And I am not saying it is always worse than rape…but that it could be argued that it can be. Certainly I think one could have cases of rape that far exceed a case where a spouse forced their wife to have intercourse in (by comparison) a less aggressive way.

I go with the “rape” involving the forced intercourse of persons one is not married to. Similar to “fornication” involving intercourse between two unmarried persons and “adultery” involving at least one married person…or in other areas “abortion” is the intentional killing of the unborn…“theft” is “usurpation of another’s goods against the reasonable will of the owner.”…etc etc.

Now could others argue otherwise? Sure. I am not aware of some Church teaching per se here.

In any case – Husbands should always love and honor their wives – such violence is contrary to marriage! And of course wives should always love and honer their husbands --which includes never using “relations” as something to “hold over their heads” etc etc

But in another post here you said "“Nate knows this. And I am sure agrees that one can not sexual assault ones wife”

Do not think a husband can sexually assault his wife?.
.

 

[PJM]

=UnusVeritas;9095368]Is rape within marriage okay? I’m thinking it’s not, but does anyone have any quotes from Church Fathers or something on the matter? The older the quote the better in this case.

These Bible passages PROVE that:

1. This ought NEVER happen [lack of charity] And it is PHYSICAL ABUSE!
2. There ought NOT be a VALID reason for it other than INABILITY due to illness or a physical / mental/ or JUST emmotioanl cause …NEVER JUST “don’t feel like it”

Marriage
1 Cor. 7: 3-5 “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does. Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, [a SPECIFIED SHORT AGREED UPONTIME] that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.”

**Heb. 13: 4 **“Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for God will judge the immoral and adulterous.”

**Mt. 5: 31-32 ** [JESUS SPEAKING] "It was also said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

God Bless,
Pat

 

[severus68]

Re: obligations (like mass attendance…I would refer anyone to St Paul’s great Discourse in 1 Cor 13 and the number of times he says, "If I do (this or that)…but have not love I am nothing…
If we have not Love - nothing else matters. This is important to any conversation we have here.
I don’t really care for the terms “Rights and obligations” in relation to Catholic marriage because they are not very good terms IMHO for what a Catholic marriage should be.
But if we DO use them lets remember that the First right of each spouse is to be treated with Love and respect. The First obligation of the other is to give their spouse that Love and respect to which they have a right.

Well He asked about how to understand 1 Cor 7:3. The purpose of my response was to provide guidance in understanding the verse.

Change that to greatest importance is Love and you’ve nailed it.

It is the command that underpins all other commands.

One final thought on this matter is that we have to remember that, rape, sexual assault, whatever term is used, it remains assault.
It is not about about love, or rights or obligations. It’s about power, subjugation, anger, lust and possibly other disordered issues. The one thing that sexual assault is NOT about is sex.
Therefore the so called conjugal rights do not even come into play in my opinion. Assault is assault is assault - and is a grave - even mortal - violation of God’s Law.

Peace
James

Great post James.

I was speaking to an ex friend who happens to be Muslim. He emphasised that in Islam a man can never rape is wife, never. However when asked, he had the decency to look and feel embarrassed and said he would never ever force his wife.

I think some people ‘forget’ we are followers of Christ. The OT is quoted, Paul is quoted in abundance but what Christ said as set out in the Gospels, is seldom quoted to support a position. You are one of the few.

 

[Bookcat]

But in another post here you said "“Nate knows this. And I am sure agrees that one can not sexual assault ones wife”

Do not think a husband can sexually assault his wife?.
.

Miscommunication there.

A husband can not sexually assault his wife – such would be sinful.

Not something he can do –

a husband does not have a right to assault his wife…

 

[severus68]

Miscommunication there.

A husband can not sexually assault his wife – such would be sinful.

Not something he can do –

a husband does not have a right to assault his wife…

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

 

[In_Training]

NO. Look up the definition of rape. It means being held down and forced into something that hurts and breaks your heart, your confidence and your health & wellness. Talk to any rape victim and they will tell you how it feels to be raped, married or not married. Plus, WHAT kind of person does it take to actually BE a rapist? Someone who does not care about your health and emotions and does not respect you - someone who wants to intentionally hurt you in ways that others can’t understand.

Being married does not make rape okay! Rape is a monstrous thing like violence and murder. If you force your spouse to have sex against their will, you are raping them. No one should be allowed to trivialize marriage into acting as a justification for forcing someone against their will. On your wedding day when you say your vows, NO, you do not give or get permission to be forced into sex. Period.

 

[severus68]

NO. Look up the definition of rape. It means being held down and forced into something that hurts and breaks your heart, your confidence and your health & wellness. Talk to any rape victim and they will tell you how it feels to be raped, married or not married. Plus, WHAT kind of person does it take to actually BE a rapist? Someone who does not care about your health and emotions and does not respect you - someone who wants to intentionally hurt you in ways that others can’t understand.

Being married does not make rape okay! Rape is a monstrous thing like violence and murder. If you force your spouse to have sex against their will, you are raping them. No one should be allowed to trivialize marriage into acting as a justification for forcing someone against their will. On your wedding day when you say your vows, NO, you do not give or get permission to be forced into sex. Period.

Very well said.

 

[Bookcat]

Being married does not make rape okay! Rape is a monstrous thing like violence and murder. If you force your spouse to have sex against their will, you are raping them. No one should be allowed to trivialize marriage into acting as a justification for forcing someone against their will. On your wedding day when you say your vows, NO, you do not give or get permission to be forced into sex. Period.

No one here to my knowledge is saying that forcing ones spouse physically to have intercourse (it would not be marital relations…by nature here) is ok. No one.

But I can understand coming to this thread and due to the main question thinking that some are arguing such. And thus being shocked.

All I think are in agreement that such should Never happen…and such is foreign to the very nature of marriage. Is contrary to it. Sinful. Nor is there anyone saying as far as I know that one has given permission to such by their wedding vows. Those vows yes do involve the exchange of rights to the marital act --but the “marital act” is not being discussed here.

What some of the posts have discussed is the term to be used. Just as Fornication describes the intercourse between two unmarried persons. A Married person though having relations with a person who is not their spouse is not committing “Fornication”. They can not be for Fornication involves unmarried persons. They are committing “Adultery”. That is the term that is to be used.

So one could argue that Rape is not the term for sexual assault in marriage. And indeed it can be argued due to the love and honor one is to have in particular for ones spouse and due to the sacrament of Marriage that such can be -worse- than rape.

 

[In_Training]

No one here to my knowledge is saying that forcing ones spouse physically to have intercourse (it would not be marital relations…by nature here) is ok. No one.

But I can understand coming to this thread and due to the main question thinking that some are arguing such. And thus being shocked.

All I think are in agreement that such should Never happen…and such is foreign to the very nature of marriage. Is contrary to it. Sinful. Nor is there anyone saying as far as I know that one has given permission to such by their wedding vows. Those vows yes do involve the exchange of rights to the marital act --but the “marital act” is not being discussed here.

What some of the posts have discussed is the term to be used. Just as Fornication describes the intercourse between two unmarried persons. A Married person though having relations with a person who is not their spouse is not committing “Fornication”. They can not be for Fornication involves unmarried persons. They are committing “Adultery”. That is the term that is to be used.

So one could argue that Rape is not the term for sexual assault in marriage. And indeed it can be argued due to the love and honor one is to have in particular for ones spouse and due to the sacrament of Marriage that such can be -worse- than rape.

I realize that no one here is saying rape is good. What I was more shocked about was that other posters are questioning their vocabulary when trying to describe an act where a person forces another person to have sex. I had a job my senior year of high school and I sometimes took a few dollars from the drawer, telling myself it was just “borrowing without asking.” It took me like a year to admit it was stealing. I feel like I’ve come a long way, realizing that and trying to take responsibility for it. So I’m surprised to see that some people, any people, question whether stealing is actually just “borrowing without asking” depending on the circumstances. I did it but I’m not always as smart or mature or morally grounded as other Catholics are, so I’m surprised to see others struggling. After all, if you call it something different than what it is, it just might soften the blow and take some accountability away from the person who did it. And I don’t think that’s right.

It’s rape, and whether you are single or married it doesn’t change the act and it shouldn’t be called something different than what describes the act. Like with me and the money drawer, I’d just gotten my first credit card at the time and bought an XBox, so you could say that I agreed to make payments on my credit card… but whether I called taking money from the drawer “stealing,” “borrowing without asking,” or “cooking pancakes,” it doesn’t change what I did and just because I had agreed to pay the balance on my credit card doesn’t justify taking money from the drawer either. Not that taking money is the same thing as forcing someone to have sex, but 5 years ago I would have told you that it wasn’t considered “stealing,” per say, and so it must be okay to do… I only recently figured out what “the ends do not justify the means” is actually saying, and I don’t want others to make the same stupidass mistakes I did by thinking if you just change the word it changes the act. Sexual assault is different than rape, you can be sexually assaulted and experience something completely different than what someone who was raped experienced. In my opinion (just mine), “rape” is the correct term for people who force others into sex against their will. I don’t see it as anything different just because the victim already knows and has a relationship with the attacker.

 

[Bookcat]

I realize that no one here is saying rape is good. What I was more shocked about was that other posters are questioning their vocabulary when trying to describe an act where a person forces another person to have sex.

One can debate the correct theological term for the sinful act under discussion. It is a legit question.

One can argue that just as fornication is not the correct term for sexual intercourse between a person who is married and and another person (rather it is adultery)…rape is not the term for physically forced intercourse within a marriage.

No matter what it is called --it is a sinful act and contrary to the very nature of marriage.

 

[Godfollower]

{Snip}.

2. There ought NOT be a VALID reason for it other than INABILITY due to illness or a physical / mental/ or JUST emmotioanl cause …NEVER JUST "don’t feel like it"
Marriage
1 Cor. 7: 3-5 “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does. Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, [a SPECIFIED SHORT AGREED UPONTIME] that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.”

{Snip}.

God Bless,
Pat

Sorry, but I disagree here. Each spouse is perfectly entitled at any time to say “Sorry, but I just don’t feel like it tonight.” And not just because of illness, exhaustion, or what have you.

Among other things, if it’s a sin to avoid sex between husband and wife, then the Holy Family sinned. And we know that not to be the case.

Yes, it’s sinful to deny each other willfully or out of anger or spite. But not all denials or I-just-can’t-tonights are sinful.

 

[Bookcat]

Sorry, but I disagree here. Each spouse is perfectly entitled at any time to say “Sorry, but I just don’t feel like it tonight.” And not just because of illness, exhaustion, or what have you.

Among other things, if it’s a sin to avoid sex between husband and wife, then the Holy Family sinned. And we know that not to be the case.

Yes, it’s sinful to deny each other willfully or out of anger or spite. But not all denials or I-just-can’t-tonights are sinful.

1. Spouses may certainly discuss things and can agree to wait etc (so long as there is not a near occasion).
2. The Holy Family did not sin theirs was a unique marriage.

Nor do those who exchange the “right” but choose never to exercise that right- sin – as in the rare case of a continent marriage. Though if one changed their mind about this decision --the right remains–or say seek a dissolution from the Holy See of the unconsummated marriage.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
What if the husband likes to hurt his wife during sex? not good–such needs to cease
What if the wife has a medical condition that makes vaginal sex painful (or even dangerous) for her? there are ways to overcome the first
What if the wife just isn’t attracted to her husband anymore (assuming she ever was)?lack of “attraction” is not a good reason
What if the wife doesn’t want to (ever) have sex due to fear of pregnancy? she needs to seek good counsel in overcoming this --for marital relations are part of marriage…

What are you really saying?
Can a wife refuse her husband (sexually) if he’s violent, she’s afraid of getting pregnant, or because the the wife simply isn’t interested, or not?

 

[Spyral]

Just to let you know in the UK it was legal for a husband to rape his wife up until 1993.

Kinda scary when you think about it.

But it’s extremely wrong to forceably have sex with anyone regardless if you are married to them or not. Indeed I’d think its even worse as you’re supposed to have a higher level of love and respect for your spouse.