Rapture, a Revalations Timeline, and Confusion

[vern_humphrey]

Well, there are an awful lot of signs that could easily be part of the GT. Yes, I know, we might not be…

The point has always been to be ready because we cannot know the hour and the day. However, with up to a billion babies slaughtered through abortion and birth control, and with the constant wars, rumors of wars, natural disasters, and climate changes, and an apparent global apostasy going on in our midst, I would say there is plenty of reason to think the GT has at least begun–if not already advanced.

But we don’t know and my position is we can’t know. We will not know the hour and the day. Nor can we know the nature of the Great Tribulation – it might be an agony of the soul, and not a “real” thing like persecution or plagues at all.

 

[Tom317]

But we don’t know and my position is we can’t know. We will not know the hour and the day. Nor can we know the nature of the Great Tribulation – it might be an agony of the soul, and not a “real” thing like persecution or plagues at all.

I think we will know, I think the entire world will know. I think it is real world event(s) that will completely unmistakable…true Christians will not have to guess, but they will also not be able to do much about it. Nothing in the history of humanity will compare.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think we will know, I think the entire world will know. I think it is real world event(s) that will completely unmistakable…true Christians will not have to guess, but they will also not be able to do much about it. Nothing in the history of humanity will compare.

But how does that square with saying, as you did, that we might be in the Great Tribulation now?

If we** are** in the Great Tribulation, the best we can do is suspect it – we don’t know it.

 

[Tom317]

But how does that square with saying, as you did, that we might be in the Great Tribulation now?

If we** are** in the Great Tribulation, the best we can do is suspect it – we don’t know it.

Because if we are the beginning, as I suspect, then it is more difficult to discern. There is no way to know how long the GT will last, it could go on for a long time before reaching its peak. Later, when things get really rough, then it will be easy to discern by Christians, yet I think there will not be a huge percentage of true Christians left at that time…there are far less true Christians today, then there was 10, 20, 30 years ago and that trend will continue until the world is ripe and ready for the anti-christ and the final series of persecutions and trial.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Because if we are the beginning, as I suspect, then it is more difficult to discern. There is no way to know how long the GT will last, it could go on for a long time before reaching its peak. Later, when things get really rough, then it will be easy to discern by Christians, yet I think there will not be a huge percentage of true Christians left at that time…there are far less true Christians today, then there was 10, 20, 30 years ago and that trend will continue until the world is ripe and ready for the anti-christ and the final series of persecutions and trial.

Ah, but we have been in far** worse** tribulations ere now – Diocletian’s “Great Persecution.” The Muslim Conquest of all of Christian North Africa and the Christian Eastern Roman Empire. The Black Plague – when between a third and a half of all Christendom died. The Holocaust, when some 3 million Catholics died along with the Jews.

So what tells us this is the Great Tribulation?

 

[spauline]

I don’t think we’re in the Great Trib, nor that it will be anything close for several centuries. For we are only most likely on the verge of the MINOR chas, and it will not be the end but the most glorious triumph of grace in all human history, short only, of course, of the New Creation itself.

Tom, i believe we’re already in the false prophet. You’re saying the second woe hasn’t occurred yet, I say, in another level, it already has: the supernatural death that occcured in the Enlightenment, in which supernatural religion was rejected in favor of a mere natural religiosity.

but the false prophets is already present metaphorically, in the utter apostate ideologies of atheism and relativism: read this for more info:

The Lamb, the True Logos, and the Second Beast, the False Logos

 

[Tom317]

Ah, but we have been in far** worse** tribulations ere now – Diocletian’s “Great Persecution.” The Muslim Conquest of all of Christian North Africa and the Christian Eastern Roman Empire. The Black Plague – when between a third and a half of all Christendom died. The Holocaust, when some 3 million Catholics died along with the Jews.

So what tells us this is the Great Tribulation?

Yes.

While I agree that the Church has suffered greater presecutions through history then it is right now, I personally believe that is going to change and fairly quickly…perhaps within ten years or so.

As I said, I believe we are at the beginning of the GT, which might very well last for a long time.

I also believe that we have never witnessed the level of apostasy that we do today, with at least 90% of the Christian world fallen away from the real faith…that is unique and is part of prophecy for the end days.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes.

While I agree that the Church has suffered greater presecutions through history then it is right now, I personally believe that is going to change and fairly quickly…perhaps within ten years or so.

As I said, I believe we are at the beginning of the GT, which might very well last for a long time.

I also believe that we have never witnessed the level of apostasy that we do today, with at least 90% of the Christian world fallen away from the real faith…that is unique and is part of prophecy for the end days.

Well, you’re a bit pessimistic about the faith. In Europe and America there are a lot of very bad Christians, but elsewhere the Church is growing.

 

[Tom317]

Well, you’re a bit pessimistic about the faith. In Europe and America there are a lot of very bad Christians, but elsewhere the Church is growing.

Numbers of people claiming to be Catholic is growing in some areas. However, a huge majority of Catholics reject at least one, and in some case many, dogmas and doctrines of the faith. Europe is all but dead, the United States and Canada is not far behind and Mexico disturbingly is trying to legalize abortion.

Beyond that, 40% of Christianity is by its very nature in apostasy for they are Protestants.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Numbers of people claiming to be Catholic is growing in some areas. However, a huge majority of Catholics reject at least one, and in some case many, dogmas and doctrines of the faith. Europe is all but dead, the United States and Canada is not far behind and Mexico disturbingly is trying to legalize abortion.

Beyond that, 40% of Christianity is by its very nature in apostasy for they are Protestants.

Yes, but nevertheless, we are making progress.

After all, John does present the war as won, does he not?

 

[spauline]

Numbers of people claiming to be Catholic is growing in some areas. However, a huge majority of Catholics reject at least one, and in some case many, dogmas and doctrines of the faith. Europe is all but dead, the United States and Canada is not far behind and Mexico disturbingly is trying to legalize abortion.

Beyond that, 40% of Christianity is by its very nature in apostasy for they are Protestants.

a MINOR apostasy exists, most likely not the great apostasy.

Don’t you get it? “Everything will be fulfilled…” So then the way of the saint, which mirrors the way of the Jews, must also be the way of the Church.

hence, just as the Jews go through the three step way, so must the Church.

Hence, at Babel, God confounds the languages and calls one nation from many through Abraham.

At Pentecost, God reunites all nations into one universal kingdom through the gift of tongues.

But the flesh resists the spirit, hence the Egyptians persecute the Jews, but God delivers them into the Promised Land.

So then, also, pagan Rome persecutes what it perceives to be as a threat to its dominion, but, then, also, the grace of God shining through the blood of the martyrs delivers the pagans into the promised land of Catholicism.

And the Jews kicked and screamed as they were brought out of Egypt, and they kicked and screamed their way out of the Old Covenant and into apostasy.

So then also the Gentiles kicked and screamed as they were brought into the light of Catholicism, and they kicked and screamed their way out of it, so that now, as just before the exile, there is an apostasy in the Gentiles.

But God permitted the Jews to suffer the chastisement of Babylon, and it restored them to faith and they were brought back to their homeland.

So then also, what lies ahead is not the great chastisemen but the minor one, which shall manifest to humanity the true nature of their spiritual depravity, and they shall be brought back to their true homeland, which is the Church. And so alll religions shall be reuinted with Rome.

Finally, the Jews went through the final trial, the OT antichrist Antiochus, which, after a brief limbo, was followed by the FIRST Coming of Christ.

So then at the conclusion of the age of peace, the Church shall go thorugh the great apostasy and NT Antichrist, after which will occur the SECOND Coming of Christ.

and this will complete the circle: for in the first coming of Christ, the Jews reject him and the Gentiles accept Him, so at the Second coming, the Gentiles will reject Him and the Jews will accept Him.

 

[Tom317]

Yes, but nevertheless, we are making progress.

After all, John does present the war as won, does he not?

Yes, Jesus won the war with His actions of the cross, yet the battle through time to reach eternity is not yet completed, and there are many chapters left, including the GT, the great apostasy, etc.

 

[Tom317]

a MINOR apostasy exists, most likely not the great apostasy.

Don’t you get it? “Everything will be fulfilled…” So then the way of the saint, which mirrors the way of the Jews, must also be the way of the Church.

hence, just as the Jews go through the three step way, so must the Church.

Hence, at Babel, God confounds the languages and calls one nation from many through Abraham.

At Pentecost, God reunites all nations into one universal kingdom through the gift of tongues.

But the flesh resists the spirit, hence the Egyptians persecute the Jews, but God delivers them into the Promised Land.

So then, also, pagan Rome persecutes what it perceives to be as a threat to its dominion, but, then, also, the grace of God shining through the blood of the martyrs delivers the pagans into the promised land of Catholicism.

And the Jews kicked and screamed as they were brought out of Egypt, and they kicked and screamed their way out of the Old Covenant and into apostasy.

So then also the Gentiles kicked and screamed as they were brought into the light of Catholicism, and they kicked and screamed their way out of it, so that now, as just before the exile, there is an apostasy in the Gentiles.

But God permitted the Jews to suffer the chastisement of Babylon, and it restored them to faith and they were brought back to their homeland.

So then also, what lies ahead is not the great chastisemen but the minor one, which shall manifest to humanity the true nature of their spiritual depravity, and they shall be brought back to their true homeland, which is the Church. And so alll religions shall be reuinted with Rome.

Finally, the Jews went through the final trial, the OT antichrist Antiochus, which, after a brief limbo, was followed by the FIRST Coming of Christ.

So then at the conclusion of the age of peace, the Church shall go thorugh the great apostasy and NT Antichrist, after which will occur the SECOND Coming of Christ.

and this will complete the circle: for in the first coming of Christ, the Jews reject him and the Gentiles accept Him, so at the Second coming, the Gentiles will reject Him and the Jews will accept Him.

We have no way of knowing that we will ever attain an age of peace. We continue sinning with an increasing wreckless abandon. We are seeing the very events you speak of, the gentiles are beginning to pull away from the real faith (apostasy) and that will continue to happen. Then in the future (I don’t think it is far away), the Jews will begin to see the truth of Christ, and during that entire process we will see the world undergoing woes like never before. Historically speaking, I believe are on the the threshhold of the final push towards eternity.

 

[spauline]

We have no way of knowing that we will ever attain an age of peace. We continue sinning with an increasing wreckless abandon. We are seeing the very events you speak of, the gentiles are beginning to pull away from the real faith (apostasy) and that will continue to happen. Then in the future (I don’t think it is far away), the Jews will begin to see the truth of Christ, and during that entire process we will see the world undergoing woes like never before. Historically speaking, I believe are on the the threshhold of the final push towards eternity.

The Jews were delivered from bondage in Egypt (the Church was delivered from pagan Rome)

the Jews fell away a FIRST great time, were chastised and restored. And this was only with the OLD Covenant.

If, with only the OLD Cov, God could restore a people that had fallen into total sin, how can you say it is highly unlikely that God could not abandon the Gentiles into an exile that will be the consequences of their sins, consequences in which the world will ALMOST end, and that the exile serves to restore them to faith? For if the division of Christians has brought about the LOSS of faith, what will the reunion of Christians mean except the Sabbath like rest of the seventh day?

BTW, you are not in line with countless mystics. Have you not read EWTN’s take on things. That Desmond Birch studied only FULLY approved Private revs, and this is the great theme: there shall be (or rather already is) a MINOR apostasy with a conditional chastisement, after which will occur a moral miracle: the reunion of all Christians and a glorious age of peace. Only after the age of peace does there occur the GREAT apostasy and real end of the world.

In other words, if the restoration of the Jews to the OLD Cov and homeland was PREDESTINED, how could God not PREDESTINE a great renewal for the Gentiles? Or are you saying that there is a fundamental difference in human nature between Jew and Gentile?

 

[spauline]

BTW, I’ve got plenty of powerhouse essays to elaborate on this subject. I can refer you to several, if you are interested. I am the ultimate apoc NUT!

 

[Tom317]

The Jews were delivered from bondage in Egypt (the Church was delivered from pagan Rome)

the Jews fell away a FIRST great time, were chastised and restored. And this was only with the OLD Covenant.

If, with only the OLD Cov, God could restore a people that had fallen into total sin, how can you say it is highly unlikely that God could not abandon the Gentiles into an exile that will be the consequences of their sins, consequences in which the world will ALMOST end, and that the exile serves to restore them to faith? For if the division of Christians has brought about the LOSS of faith, what will the reunion of Christians mean except the Sabbath like rest of the seventh day?

BTW, you are not in line with countless mystics. Have you not read EWTN’s take on things. That Desmond Birch studied only FULLY approved Private revs, and this is the great theme: there shall be (or rather already is) a MINOR apostasy with a conditional chastisement, after which will occur a moral miracle: the reunion of all Christians and a glorious age of peace. Only after the age of peace does there occur the GREAT apostasy and real end of the world.

In other words, if the restoration of the Jews to the OLD Cov and homeland was PREDESTINED, how could God not PREDESTINE a great renewal for the Gentiles? Or are you saying that there is a fundamental difference in human nature between Jew and Gentile?

Those mystics are not approved by the Church and Catholics are not bound to believe them. Having said that, Mary stated in visions that we would enjoy an era of peace under two conditions: (1) Russie must be converted; (2) The Christian world (Catholic) must turn away from sin and back to God. Mary made it clear that she could not help avert the coming trials if we did not listen to her warnings.

We have not listened to her warnings, the world is more sinful now, then when she gave those warnings, and I personally doubt that Russia has been converted.

 

[Tom317]

The Jews were delivered from bondage in Egypt (the Church was delivered from pagan Rome)

the Jews fell away a FIRST great time, were chastised and restored. And this was only with the OLD Covenant.

If, with only the OLD Cov, God could restore a people that had fallen into total sin, how can you say it is highly unlikely that God could not abandon the Gentiles into an exile that will be the consequences of their sins, consequences in which the world will ALMOST end, and that the exile serves to restore them to faith? For if the division of Christians has brought about the LOSS of faith, what will the reunion of Christians mean except the Sabbath like rest of the seventh day?

BTW, you are not in line with countless mystics. Have you not read EWTN’s take on things. That Desmond Birch studied only FULLY approved Private revs, and this is the great theme: there shall be (or rather already is) a MINOR apostasy with a conditional chastisement, after which will occur a moral miracle: the reunion of all Christians and a glorious age of peace. Only after the age of peace does there occur the GREAT apostasy and real end of the world.

In other words, if the restoration of the Jews to the OLD Cov and homeland was PREDESTINED, how could God not PREDESTINE a great renewal for the Gentiles? Or are you saying that there is a fundamental difference in human nature between Jew and Gentile?

Follow-up point: There is a finite number of Gentiles in God’s plan for salvation, Scripture tells us this when it says “when the full number of the Gentiles” enter the Church, after which the full inclusion (conversion) of the JEws will take place. I think it is quite possible that we are quite close to the full number of Gentiles entering the Church because Gentiles are moving away from the real faith by the millions.

The Protestant Revolt, although seen by millions as a good thing, was not good at all, it was part of the first woe upon the Christian Church and that revolt has lead the billions of souls over the centuries turning from the full truth…and in our time various forms of Christianity-lite (all Protestant) Churches are springing-up and taking Catholics from the faith.

 

[spauline]

Follow-up point: There is a finite number of Gentiles in God’s plan for salvation, Scripture tells us this when it says “when the full number of the Gentiles” enter the Church, after which the full inclusion (conversion) of the JEws will take place. I think it is quite possible that we are quite close to the full number of Gentiles entering the Church because Gentiles are moving away from the real faith by the millions.

The Protestant Revolt, although seen by millions as a good thing, was not good at all, it was part of the first woe upon the Christian Church and that revolt has lead the billions of souls over the centuries turning from the full truth…and in our time various forms of Christianity-lite (all Protestant) Churches are springing-up and taking Catholics from the faith.

I absolutely agree that Christian division is one of the most major causes of the loss of faith, and hence, must be in some sense a part of the apoc Q’s. But you seem to have a one-sided view of this: yes, there is sin, but also Redemption. Hence, your argument is typical Augustinian pessimism: there is always major sin along with major goodness. It is a field of wheat and weeds, and there must always be lots of weeds. Hence, there can never be full unity because of sin, therefore Christ’s prayer in John 17 is ultimately bad news only, only about sin: because of sin there will always be division, and hence, because of division the world will lose faith and will never come back because of it.

I disagree with this. I am utterly convinced that St. Augustine didn’t have everything figured out. Rather, the earlier Fathers who were “supposedly” chilaists are closer to the truth: the wheat and tares is NOT the be all tell all text of the apoc. The Days of Creation and the Beast are. Hence, rather than that we have a field of even mixture of good and evil, it is rather that evil and good ALTERNATE in prevalence: that is, FIRST comes evening (sin), THEN comes morning (Redemption), for the days that we go through are NOT a continuous gray. No, first comes darkness, then comes light.

Hence, Christ’s prayer in John 17 is TWO-sided, not one-sided. FIRST, because of sin, Christians will become divided, and this wound will cause the sun to set spiritually (the world will lose faith because of the scandal). BUT, Christ can abandon the apostate world into the consequences of its total denial of religion, and they rediscover their need for religion. And not only that, but the minor chastisement not only unveils the errors of the apostates, but of ALL the non-Catholic errors, including the errors of the separated Christians, and so, recogninzing their need for the fullness of truth and grace, Christians are reunited by the miinor apostasy and trib, and because they are RESTORED to love of one another and union in faith and practice, the world IS able to believe, and Catholicism is gloriously restored, that is, the sun RISES again.

To summarize, FIRST, because of sin, Christians become divided, and the world LOSES faith. But THEN, Christians are reunited, and the world REGAINS faith. First the sun sets, then the sun rises. Not one continous period of gray, as with Augustine.

 

[spauline]

I have an article on this if you are interested:

Christian Disunity and Christ’s Plan for the Redemption

Blessings to you, Tom!

 

[sconea]

A review on the David Currie’s excellent book about the protestant rapture. Also see reviews at amazon.
After reading this book you won’t be confused or deceived again about ANY of these so called ‘end-times’ things.

carl-olson.com/book%20reviews/currie_rapture.html