Rapture.

[QuickCat]

The way I understood the rapture is Christ does not come to Earth but takes the Christians up.

Now I don’t know what to think, acutally we all need to be ready, we could pass tomorrow.

Your understanding is correct. We are to look for His coming and we are to be telling others of this wonderful [imminent] event. This revelation of the rapture, i.e., translation of the saints was revealed to the apostle to the Gentiles [Paul] for us. The 12 are to sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel when the Lord returns to earth @ the 2nd coming. He will setup His kingdom at that time. But remember, the rapture is only for believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Notice the gospel of salvation in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 and what results when we “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” [Ephesians 1:13].
Grace and Peace to you Luvstosew,
QC
P.S. My dear wife of 55 years Luvstosew, too.

 

[centurionguard]

What is the Roman Catholic rapture?

And yes, I got the book, the Rapture Trap, but its just frilly details, I do not like to beat around the bush but get straight to the doctrine.

Perhaps this will help catholic.com/tracts/the-rapture

 

[David]

One of the best uses of the false rapture teaching is to prove the weakness of sola Scriptura. If you do a google search on the rapture, you can find thousands of websites. There are dozens of different orderings of the so called rapture events. If rapture believers cannot even prove to each other these events, why would anybody waste time with it. Combine that with the fact that Christians for 2000 years have never believed in multiply comings of Jesus.

Peace
David

 

[Luvtosew]

Wouldn’t the rapture contradict purgatory? I ask this seriously. Catholics or anyone else who believes in purgatory couldn’t believe in the rapture , as the rapture states were brought up to be with God. (all faithful Christian believers).

 

[Della]

Wouldn’t the rapture contradict purgatory? I ask this seriously. Catholics or anyone else who believes in purgatory couldn’t believe in the rapture , as the rapture states were brought up to be with God. (all faithful Christian believers).

Purgatory isn’t so much as place or length of time as a state of being. It may be that like St. Dismas, just seeing the Lord will be enough for those still alive on earth to realize the full impact of their sins and make perfect contrition for them nearly instantly. Besides this, with God all things are possible and he can cleanse people of all their sins and it’s ravages like he cured lepers and the lame and the blind who, never having walked, could walk perfectly or never having seen recognized things around them. This may be one of the blessings or being alive when Christ returns, as being raised from the dead was for the righteous dead when he died on the cross. Since we cannot know just how it will be, we can only speculate, but our speculations can be informed by what we know God has done and what he can do.

 

[onemangang]

Wouldn’t the rapture contradict purgatory? I ask this seriously. Catholics or anyone else who believes in purgatory couldn’t believe in the rapture , as the rapture states were brought up to be with God. (all faithful Christian believers).

What follows the calling up into the air in the second advent, but the General Judgment of all believers, those that have died in Christ first, then those alive when He returns!

How that Advent transpires is not entirely known. The separation of the Sheep and the Goats, the Wheat and Chaff, and being judged by what you have said and DONE in deeds!

So, who knows how we will be perfected in moment of the second Advent, but God alone.

The whole notion of the 7 year tribulation comes from some misguided at best, misleading at worst, timelines from Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel)

newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm

 

[Subrosa]

Compare Acts 1:11 with Zech. 14:4 - This is the 2nd advent. In the translation of the saints, as described in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 and Titus 2:13, the Lord Jesus Christ does not return to earth, He “catches up” the believers.

Many scholars have seen and taught this distinction. BTW, chiliasm [millennialism] was the escatology of the early church.
Grace and Peace,
QC

While there was some Millennialism in the early church, it was completely abandoned by the third century.

Millennialism is strongly rejected as a heresy by the Orthodox Church. In AD 230, the Synod of Iconium declared that baptisms performed by the Montanist sect were invalid. The Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in AD 381 supported the Synod of Iconium and further declared millennialism to be a heresy.

Simply interpreting scripture is no way to get to the truth. A real scholarly way to interpret scripture is to compare it to other scripture. If one tries to make the 1000 years reign literal, compare it to Ps 105.

“8 He remembers his covenant forever,
the promise he made, for a thousand generations,
9 the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac.
10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:”

Here we see that the “thousand generations” in verse 8 equates to “everlasting covenant” in verse 10. Obviously the “thousand” is symbolic of “everlasting.”

Subrosa

 

[QuickCat]

What follows the calling up into the air in the second advent, but the General Judgment of all believers, those that have died in Christ first, then those alive when He returns!

How that Advent transpires is not entirely known. The separation of the Sheep and the Goats, the Wheat and Chaff, and being judged by what you have said and DONE in deeds!

So, who knows how we will be perfected in moment of the second Advent, but God alone.

The whole notion of the 7 year tribulation comes from some misguided at best, misleading at worst, timelines from Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel)

newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm

I assume by “general judgement” you mean the great white throne judgement of Rev. 20:11ff. If that is your meaning please note that only the lost stand at that judgement. And they are judged by their works and found wanting. And they are cast into the lake of fire. No believer in the Lord Jesus Christ will be judged here. In contrast, Paul writes that believers must stand before our Lord at the Bema. Our works will be judged, but strictly for loss or gain of rewards. Note 1 Cor. 3:11-15. Question: Does Paul say that our Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth in 1 Thess. 4:13-18? This scripture does not describe the 2nd coming of the Lord.
Grace and Peace,
QC

 

[onemangang]

I assume by “general judgement” you mean the great white throne judgement of Rev. 20:11ff. If that is your meaning please note that only the lost stand at that judgement. And they are judged by their works and found wanting. And they are cast into the lake of fire. No believer in the Lord Jesus Christ will be judged here. In contrast, Paul writes that believers must stand before our Lord at the Bema. Our works will be judged, but strictly for loss or gain of rewards. Note 1 Cor. 3:11-15. Question: Does Paul say that our Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth in 1 Thess. 4:13-18? This scripture does not describe the 2nd coming of the Lord.
Grace and Peace,
QC

When I said General Judgment I meant just that. The General Judgment of ALL people, not the Particular Judgment or I would have specified the Particular Judgment.

No I was not speaking about Revelation 20 specifically. If you look at what I was pointing to, it was the Sheep and Goats and Wheat and Chaff

John 5:29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the** good seed stands for the people of the kingdom**.** The weeds are the people of the evil one,** 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and** they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father**. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Matthew 25:31-46:“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; **for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'** Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, **Truly, I say to you, as **you did** it to one of the least of these my brethren, **you did** it to me**.' Then he will say to** those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;** I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and **you did not **clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, **as you did it not **to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ **And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” **

newadvent.org/summa/5088.htm

 

[zz912]

I assume by “general judgement” you mean the great white throne judgement of Rev. 20:11ff. If that is your meaning please note that only the lost stand at that judgement. And they are judged by their works and found wanting. And they are cast into the lake of fire. No believer in the Lord Jesus Christ will be judged here. In contrast, Paul writes that believers must stand before our Lord at the Bema. Our works will be judged, but strictly for loss or gain of rewards. Note 1 Cor. 3:11-15. Question: Does Paul say that our Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth in 1 Thess. 4:13-18? This scripture does not describe the 2nd coming of the Lord.
Grace and Peace,
QC

Your post contradicts Scripture. Christ says many will say “Lord Lord” and He will not acknowlege them. They believe in Him, but did not do His works.

 

[zz912]

RAPTURE
Translation of all believers – 1 Thess. 4:16,17
Saints caught up to be with the Lord = 1 Thess. 4:17
Earth not judged at this time
Before the day of wrath – 1 Thess. 5:9,10
No Reference to Satan
Christ comes for His own – 1 Thess. 4:16,17;
Translation of the saints a mystery revealed to Paul – 1 Cor. 15:51
Christ comes in the air, not to earth – 1 Thess. 4:16,17
Tribulation begins after the rapture [translation] of the saints

2ND COMING
No translation of saints
Follows prophetic signs – Matthew 24:29ff
Foretold in many O.T. Scriptures – e.g., Jer. 23:5ff; 31:31-34; Zech. 14:4ff,9
Satan bound – Rev. 20:1-3
Christ returns to earth – Zech. 14:4ff
Millennial kingdom begins – Rev. 20:4

Alright, let’s take a look:

1 Thess 4:13 We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, console one another with these words

1 Thess 5:9 For God did not destine us for wrath, but to gain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him.

1 Cor 15:50 This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality. 54 And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: “Death is swallowed up in victory

*Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.*

Pay attention to this angelic trumpet blast. It is AFTER the tribulation. And it is the herald to the Second Coming. It will be the most stunning and ear-shattering trumpet blast of all time!

Now to answer this thought that idea that Christians will not see the Great Tribulation, let’s look earlier in that same letter to the Thessalonians

*1 Thess 3:1 That is why, when we could bear it no longer, we decided to remain alone in Athens 2 and sent Timothy, our brother and co-worker for God in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, 3 so that no one be disturbed in these afflictions. For you yourselves know that we are destined for this. 4 For even when we were among you, we used to warn you in advance that we would undergo affliction, just as has happened, as you know. 5 For this reason, when I too could bear it no longer, I sent to learn about your faith, for fear that somehow the tempter had put you to the test and our toil might come to nothing.

6 But just now Timothy has returned to us from you, bringing us the good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us and long to see us as we long to see you. 7 Because of this, we have been reassured about you, brothers, in our every distress and affliction, through your faith. 8 For we now live, if you stand firm in the Lord.*

So the meaning of wrath used by St. Paul is NOT to be understood that Christians will escape the Great Tribulation. He was writing while HE was under affliction, and warned the Thessalonians they would be afflicted. So this idea that Christians will miss the Great Tribulation is COMPLETELY FALSE.

You should study this issue some more, as you have been led astray and do not have the Fullness of Truth. Listen to the Church that Christ established Himself!

 

[onemangang]

Your post contradicts Scripture. Christ says many will say “Lord Lord” and He will not acknowlege them. They believe in Him, but did not do His works.

Judging by the Religion NO in Quickcats status bar. I instantly assume "non-denominational evangelical/fundamentalist. I find contradicting scripture to be practiced among that crowd, in places where it opposes their theology ie: two judgments, particular and general. Who knows maybe I’m wrong.

 

[TimothyH]

I assume by “general judgement” you mean the great white throne judgement of Rev. 20:11ff. If that is your meaning please note that only the lost stand at that judgement. And they are judged by their works and found wanting. And they are cast into the lake of fire. No believer in the Lord Jesus Christ will be judged here. In contrast, Paul writes that believers must stand before our Lord at the Bema. Our works will be judged, but strictly for loss or gain of rewards. Note 1 Cor. 3:11-15. Question: **Does Paul say that our Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth in 1 Thess. 4:13-18? This scripture does not describe the 2nd coming of the Lord.**Grace and Peace,
QC

I’m sure you just missed it, but 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has been explained in post number 30 on this thread in the context of the common phrase “Going out to meet” as understood by Jews in the first century. I will repeat it here for your convenience.

It is a reference to the practice of “Going out to meet” a visiting dignitary, king or military leader.

***Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord *in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

On the approach of a dignitary, king or military leader, the citizens of a city would leave the relative safety of their city and go some miles outside of the city gate to meet the visiting party. They would go out unamred as a gesture of subordination. Prominent members of the citizenry, civic leaders, judges and even the local king or governor would greet the dignitary, gifts would be given, and the citizens would escort the dignitary back to their homes as an honored guest. To not do so was to invite attack. You either went out to meet the visiting party with weapons, with gifts, or you barred the gates of your city and prepared for attack. Those were your three choices.

We see an example as early as Abrham’s reception after his victory in battle in Genesis 14.

When Abram returned from his defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were allied with him, the king of Sodom went out to greet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley). (Genesis 14:17)

There are numerous incidents like this in the Bible and it is a documented to have been a custom in many cultures. To this day a crowd will still go out to the airport to meet a visiting dignitary such as the president or the governor when he comes to town. The passage in question refers to this custom, and is a statement about meeting Jesus when he returns and escorting him to earth as an honored guest. It has nothing to do returning to Heaven with Jesus.

It ties in with Jewish belief that the earth would be transformed and recreated at the end of time. There would be a new Genesis, a new creation.

***The one who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new." *(Revelation 21:5)

We see that not only does Jesus comes down out of heaven, but heaven itself comes down to earth and transforms the earth itself.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race." (Revelation 21:1-3)

Jesus and all of heaven come down and dwell with men. God dwells with man on earth. Paul was speaking about the Jewish custom or “Going out to meet” Jesus, escorting him to earth, and the belief that the earth would be radically transformed into heaven itself by Jesus at the end of time. You either went out to meet Jesus with weapons, you went out to meet him with gifts and escort him back as an honored guest, or you sit at home and get ready for a fight. Those are your three choices.

Jews of the first century undersood this custom because they had participated in it themselves.

-Tim-

 

[govav8er]

…Jews of the first century undersood this custom because they had participated in it themselves.

-Tim-

ahhhh context! Someone said that text without context is pretext.

Thanks Tim! Very well presented.

 

[Subrosa]

I just watched this video, and a prophecy of the rapture it included…

youtu.be/q2PLls02gOU

I was horrified!

Sub

And, oh yes…Go Pats!

 

[David]

I just watched this video, and a prophecy of the rapture it included…

youtu.be/q2PLls02gOU

I was horrified!

Sub

And, oh yes…Go Pats!

yes, giant insects are scary. GO Giants!

 

[QuickCat]

While there was some Millennialism in the early church, it was completely abandoned by the third century.

Millennialism is strongly rejected as a heresy by the Orthodox Church. In AD 230, the Synod of Iconium declared that baptisms performed by the Montanist sect were invalid. The Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in AD 381 supported the Synod of Iconium and further declared millennialism to be a heresy.

Simply interpreting scripture is no way to get to the truth. A real scholarly way to interpret scripture is to compare it to other scripture. If one tries to make the 1000 years reign literal, compare it to Ps 105.

“8 He remembers his covenant forever,
the promise he made, for a thousand generations,
9 the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac.
10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:”

Here we see that the “thousand generations” in verse 8 equates to “everlasting covenant” in verse 10. Obviously the “thousand” is symbolic of “everlasting.”

Subrosa

Augustine picked up the “allegory” * method of interpreting Scripture from the Alexanderan Jews. He passed this faulty method on. The “everlasting covenant” is yet future and is for Israel [vs 10]. Also, the “old” covenant and the “new” convenant are with Israel [note Jer. 31:31ff]. It seems to me that you confuse Israel with the Body of Christ. Israel has an earthly hope and calling. Our Lord’s first advent was to Israel. His 2nd will be to establish Israel’s kingdom on earth. The Body of Christ, by contrast, has a heavenly hope and calling.*

 

[QuickCat]

Judging by the Religion NO in Quickcats status bar. I instantly assume "non-denominational evangelical/fundamentalist. I find contradicting scripture to be practiced among that crowd, in places where it opposes their theology ie: two judgments, particular and general. Who knows maybe I’m wrong.

Dear Friend: Show me where I “contradicted” Scripture, please! I don’t believe I have. And, I have not “spiritualized” Scripture either. And yes, I am not into “religion.” But I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my wonderful Savior and my Lord. He had me personally in mind when He went to the cross. There He paid the full penality for my sins and the moment I believed the gospel of salvation that Paul preached [1 Cor. 15:1-4] I was saved eternally. I have the assurance of the seal of the Holy Spirit [Eph. 1:13]]. I pray that you, too, know Him as you Savior and Lord.
Grace and Peace,
QC

 

[mark_a]

And yes, I am not into “religion.” But I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my wonderful Savior and my Lord. He had me personally in mind when He went to the cross. There He paid the full penality for my sins and the moment I believed the gospel of salvation that Paul preached [1 Cor. 15:1-4] I was saved eternally. I have the assurance of the seal of the Holy Spirit [Eph. 1:13]]. I pray that you, too, know Him as you Savior and Lord.
Grace and Peace,
QC

Please know that it was “religion” that brought these ideas to you. You didn’t think of them yourself.

If you are really interested in the Catholic view of the “rapture”, I recommend this site: biblechristiansociety.com/download
Scroll down to the appropriate talk. The speaker even uses a Protestant “beat 'em over the head” style that appeals to so many rapturists.

 

[onemangang]

Dear Friend: Show me where I “contradicted” Scripture, please! I don’t believe I have. And, I have not “spiritualized” Scripture either. And yes, I am not into “religion.” But I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my wonderful Savior and my Lord. He had me personally in mind when He went to the cross. There He paid the full penality for my sins and the moment I believed the gospel of salvation that Paul preached [1 Cor. 15:1-4] I was saved eternally. I have the assurance of the seal of the Holy Spirit [Eph. 1:13]]. I pray that you, too, know Him as you Savior and Lord.
Grace and Peace,
QC

I never said you specifically did contradict scripture being that I only read one of your post. I said the non-denominational evangelical/fundamentalist crowd tends to fit their theology into scripture by contradicting scripture!

I just laid out, there is a Particular Judgment that we undergo at death and a General Judgement that All partake in after the Resurrection when Christ returns, that’s all!

As far as Religion goes, I can only assume that, you do not worship God but you believe Jesus is your savior and Lord?

Or am I missing something?

The Dictionary definition of religion

religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

Or do you mean the biblical definition of religion as in James and 1 Timothy

1 Timothy 5:4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their** religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.**

James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

So you say NO to either, or both, worshipping God and helping out orphans and widows?