Rapture

[St_Aloysius]

Hola.

I come from a Baptist Church. Great foundation! Not-so-good theology. Anyhoo, I was wondering if someone can explain the passages which talk about “two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left” from the Catholic stance.

I know how to deal with the passage from 1 Thessalonians (although I could always use a recap), but these verses stumped me. I would usually retort by saying that the Church never believed in this unscriptural “rapture” rather than becoming theological about it, but it would help me to know how Catholics deal with these passages. It’s hard for me to read them in anything but a fundamentalist light.

 

[DarkMark]

Hola.

I come from a Baptist Church. Great foundation! Not-so-good theology. Anyhoo, I was wondering if someone can explain the passages which talk about “two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left” from the Catholic stance.

I know how to deal with the passage from 1 Thessalonians (although I could always use a recap), but these verses stumped me. I would usually retort by saying that the Church never believed in this unscriptural “rapture” rather than becoming theological about it, but it would help me to know how Catholics deal with these passages. It’s hard for me to read them in anything but a fundamentalist light.

First, we Catholics believed in a “Rapture” (although many Catholics will not use this word); just not the one proposed by modern fundamentalists. We do believe that the Church will meet Jesus at the end of time.

The Passage in 1 Thessalonian does not say anything about a “pre-Tribulation Rapture”; thus fundamentalists are adding to Scriptures in order to teach their rapture theory. St. Paul talks about “the day of the Lord” (or Second Coming). We Catholics interpret these passages as speaking about the end times when Christ will come again to judge the wicked and the righteous shall be “always with Lord”. There is no such thing as “stages” to the Second Coming.

The same goes with "“two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left”.

In respect to the fundamentalists version of the rapture: “Catholics find no solid scriptural evidence that Jesus will come two or three more times. We think Scripture is clear that He will only come one more time. Catholics do not see any Biblical evidence as to why Christians should be “spared” the tribulation of the evil one. The Catholic Church feels that all Biblical evidence points to the contrary - that Christians will undergo great persecutions and tribulation. Catholics believe that history bears witness that the Church thrives under persecution.” (davidmacd.com/catholic/raptured_catholics.htm)

 

[reluctant_saint]

Hola.

I come from a Baptist Church. Great foundation! Not-so-good theology. Anyhoo, I was wondering if someone can explain the passages which talk about “two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left” from the Catholic stance.

I know how to deal with the passage from 1 Thessalonians (although I could always use a recap), but these verses stumped me. I would usually retort by saying that the Church never believed in this unscriptural “rapture” rather than becoming theological about it, but it would help me to know how Catholics deal with these passages. It’s hard for me to read them in anything but a fundamentalist light.

When Protestants talk about “two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left” they commonly think that the woman who was taken was raptured away and that woman who was left was not saved. In reality, it is almost the exact opposite. Let’s look at the entire passage from the Gospel of Luke that this is taken from

Luke 17

35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

When Protestants use this scripture to support the rapture, chances are they use the passage from St. Matthew. That’s because the Gospel of Luke totally devastates the doctrine of the rapture, because it records something that was not recorded in the Gospel of Matthew. In the Gospel of Luke, the disciples actually ask Jesus where all these people who are being taken away are going. Rapture believers would say that they are going to be with Jesus, but Jesus says, “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” In other words, those people being taken away are dead. They haven’t been raptured.

Also, Jesus says that this will happen “as in the days of Noah” (Luke 17:26), but as you may recall, in the days of Noah it was the ungodly who were taken away, and not the righteous.

In short, rapture believers interpret this quote backwards. Fortunately, even some of them are willing to admit that this verse doesn’t talk about the rapture. I have a friend going to a Baptist college, and his theology professor believes in the rapture, but rejects this passage as talking about the rapture.

Jesus says, “Where the body is, there the eagles (some translations say “vultures”) will gather.” Those people being taken away are taken away to an eternal death. The is exactly what Catholics believe. When Jesus comes again, only the righteous will be able to stand before him. As the book of Revelation says, those what are not righteous will be struck dead by the sword which comes from the mouth of our Lord. (Rev. 19:15) It’s going to be judgment day, and for some people it’s going to be hell. Makes you look a little differently at the “one taken, one left behind” business, doesn’t it?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Hola.

I come from a Baptist Church. Great foundation! Not-so-good theology. Anyhoo, I was wondering if someone can explain the passages which talk about “two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left” from the Catholic stance.

I know how to deal with the passage from 1 Thessalonians (although I could always use a recap), but these verses stumped me. I would usually retort by saying that the Church never believed in this unscriptural “rapture” rather than becoming theological about it, but it would help me to know how Catholics deal with these passages. It’s hard for me to read them in anything but a fundamentalist light.

Other posters have given quick answers, and as a former I/F Baptist myself, I understand what you’re going through. It’s hard dealing with all the rugs being yanked out from under you, isn’t it?

If you’re a reader, The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen (a former fundamentalist) is excellent.

If you’re more of a listener, The Rapture and the Bible lecture found at the Bible Christian Society is just as good.

 

[Church_Militant]

Other posters have given quick answers, and as a former I/F Baptist myself, I understand what you’re going through. It’s hard dealing with all the rugs being yanked out from under you, isn’t it?

If you’re a reader, The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen (a former fundamentalist) is excellent.

If you’re more of a listener, The Rapture and the Bible lecture found at the Bible Christian Society is just as good.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

John Martignoni’s CDs changed my life…I do what I can to promote his work.

 

[Church_Militant]

I also have this article on my blog. The Rapture?

 

[St_Aloysius]

lol I still go to my old Baptist church with my parents Sundays (I never miss Mass Saturdays, though), and I remember a while back we had a lesson on the rapture. I asked where that was in Scripture and why we should believe that we would be left out of the Great Tribulation. The teachers had no reply. For the rest of class, we discussed how Oprah was going to bring about the End of the World.

Mission accomplished.

 

[allischalmers]

1st Thessalonians 4; 16 and 17 is not about the Lord’s second coming. It says the He descends from heaven but not to the earth. We meet him above the clouds.
John M. and others do an injustice to scripture when they try to use Noah and Lot to discredit the rapture. In the rapture the righteous are take out of the way and the ungodly are left behind to face God’s judgement.
Noah and his family go up into the ark and are carried out of the way of God’s judgement for the ungodly that are left behind.
Lot removes himself and his family from the city ,out of the way, and those who are again left behind face God’s judgement

Are you ready to meet the Lord in the air?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

1st Thessalonians 4; 16 and 17 is not about the Lord’s second coming. It says the He descends from heaven but not to the earth. We meet him above the clouds.
John M. and others do an injustice to scripture when they try to use Noah and Lot to discredit the rapture. In the rapture the righteous are take out of the way and the ungodly are left behind to face God’s judgement.
Noah and his family go up into the ark and are carried out of the way of God’s judgement for the ungodly that are left behind.
Lot removes himself and his family from the city ,out of the way, and those who are again left behind face God’s judgement

Are you ready to meet the Lord in the air?

*14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto** the coming of the Lord **shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.*(KJV)

This passage talks about the dead in Christ rising - also known as the resurrection of the dead, which Jesus says will happen on “the last day.”

John 6:
*40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
…
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. *(KJV)

It doesn’t say the last day before the rapture, or the last day before the 7-year Tribulation, it says THE last day with no other qualifications. Rapture enthusiasts are the ones doing the twisting. When Jesus talks about his return (and Jesus only mentions returning once, not twice) he likens it to the days of Noah. It was Noah and his family who were “left behind” to remain on the earth and multiply, and the rest of the world was taken. It was Lot and his daughters who were “left behind” and not killed while the people of Sodom and Gommorah were taken out of this world. In light of Jesus’ words in the Gospels, being “left behind” is what we want to happen to us! We will meet Him in the air and then we will reign with Him on the earth. Amen!

 

[allischalmers]

*14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto** the coming of the Lord ***shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

**17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up **together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(KJV)

This passage talks about the dead in Christ rising - also known as the resurrection of the dead, which Jesus says will happen on “the last day.”

John 6:
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
…
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

It doesn’t say the last day before the rapture, or the last day before the 7-year Tribulation, it says THE last day with no other qualifications. Rapture enthusiasts are the ones doing the twisting. When Jesus talks about his return (and Jesus only mentions returning once, not twice) he likens it to the days of Noah. It was Noah and his family who were “left behind” to remain on the earth and multiply, and the rest of the world was taken. It was Lot and his daughters who were “left behind” and not killed while the people of Sodom and Gommorah were taken out of this world. In light of Jesus’ words in the Gospels, being “left behind” is what we want to happen to us! We will meet Him in the air and then we will reign with Him on the earth. Amen!

Did you not read verse 17, we which are alive shall be caught up Sound like a rapture to me.

Why are Catholics afraid of the rapture? Do you love the world so much that you do not want to leave it, Do you love all the corruption and violence. Or are you not sure of your salvation?

 

[pete_29]

Did you not read verse 17, we which are alive shall be caught up Sound like a rapture to me.

Why are Catholics afraid of the rapture? Do you love the world so much that you do not want to leave it, Do you love all the corruption and violence. Or are you not sure of your salvation?

Does this mean alive in our faith or alive in our bodies?

 

[allischalmers]

Does this mean alive in our faith or alive in our bodies?

alive in our bodies

 

[pete_29]

alive in our bodies

See, I think it could be interpreted as alive in our Faith in which case we may have died when we meet Christ in the air. Of course I could be wrong and I was being more curious than confrontational. If I seemed confrontational I apologize.

 

[lizaanne]

Please take a listen to THIS podcast about the Rapture. Look at Season One, Episode Eight.

We actually had a viewer call us at Saint Michael’s Media up after seeing this show on television and tell us that he will never set foot in a Protestant church again. Those calls are what we live for.

~Liza

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Did you not read verse 17, we which are alive shall be caught up Sound like a rapture to me.

Nope, I copied and pasted that right from BibleGateway and didn’t read a word of it. Give me a little credit here, please. I was a staunch Baptist for many many years. I know what you read into those verses because I used to think the same thing. Yes, we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, but that will happen at Christ’s Second Coming and not 7 years before. The only indication it gives as to when this event will happen is, “with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.”(verse 16) Matthew 24:31 also refers to a trumpet blast, which is clearly shown to be AFTER the tribulation, when all of Matthew 24 is read in context.

Now, one might say, that maybe that is referring to two different trumpet blasts. That argument doesn’t work, however, because 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 is also used to support a pre-tribulational rapture, yet in verse 52, it says, “at the sound of the last trumpet.” So, how could the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 occur 7 years later, if the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the “last” trumpet.

Why are Catholics afraid of the rapture? Do you love the world so much that you do not want to leave it, Do you love all the corruption and violence. Or are you not sure of your salvation?

I’m afraid of the 19th Century false teaching that permeated the Baptist churches I attended for all those years. I’m afraid of people who read Revelation and the news headlines and try to make connections there, as if Revelation has been in our Bibles for all these years but only now in light of current events has anything worthwhile in it. I’m afraid that Christians who are expecting to escape this world before a “seven year tribulation” will have their faith shaken irreparably when they find they are in the midst of it.

When Christ returns, He will judge the living and the dead and we who have endured to the end will reign with Him on the earth. Hallelujah! Lord Jesus, come quickly!

 

[heisenburg]

Why are catholics so Afraid of the Rapture

First, to make clear, Catholics do not fear the rapture at all. infact, we firmly believe in the rapture… However, we believe it occurs on the last day, after the dead have risen (in fact the dead rising is PART of the rapture), after the great trials.

So, we as a church do believe we will be raptured, just not “Left Behind” rapture.

That being said, Pre trib rapture wasn’t taught by ANYONE prior to the early 1800s. It was hinted at as a thought experiment by a Catholic monk in the Late 1700s, but this is it. The closest you have to anyone prior to this is one quick passage that may or may not be referring to the pre trib rapture by Pseudo-Ephrium(sp). However, it isn;t even certain if the unknown writer really was referring to Pre Trib Rapture or something else.

Saying Catholics fear the Rapture is deliberately false. We detest the theology of Pretrib/Mid trib rapture because it is a false teaching.

How do I know it is false?

because it didn’t exist for almost 1800 years.

The idea was speculated first with deep roots of anti-catholicism, and then scripture was looked for to support it. Why do I say it was conjured up with deep roots in Anti-Catholicism? Look at some of the charts produced by John Darby. On there, a key thing you will see is “The Harlot of Babylon.- The Papacy”

In other words, Pre Trib rapture put forth by Darby, forwarded by Schofield, and popularized by Tim Lahaye has more to do with hatred, and false teaching, and less to do with Christ

Catholics are always criticized for “Adding to the bible” But when looking at Rapture… who really is the one changing scripture here
Catholics that have basically held the same belief for 2000 years, or a small group of protestants the started teaching it less the 200 years ago

In Christ

 

[JonNC]

Lutherans believe the same as Catholics in this matter of the “rapture”. I have a question for Catholics, not as a confrontation, but because I do not know; the creeds tell us that he shall come to judge the living and the dead, how does that belief square with purgatory? In other words, if Christ returns to raise the dead for judgement, how does purgatory fit into this?
Thanks in advance for the information.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

This is an awesome thread; very insightful.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Lutherans believe the same as Catholics in this matter of the “rapture”. I have a question for Catholics, not as a confrontation, but because I do not know; the creeds tell us that he shall come to judge the living and the dead, how does that belief square with purgatory? In other words, if Christ returns to raise the dead for judgement, how does purgatory fit into this?
Thanks in advance for the information.

Purgatory is not for judgment.

Catholics believe that Purgatory is a step before Heaven where believers are cleaned up for the “wedding banquet” of the Lord in Heaven. Not all believers have to go through Purgatory (some go straight to Heaven) but all people in Purgatory eventually make it to Heaven. They are the elect.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism 1030) [davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm](http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm)