Rationale for Second Coming-

[Roamin_Xian]

Is there any basis for the Second Coming in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament? This has been one sticking point for me.

 

[NHInsider]

Well - not explicitly. This is one of the reasons the Jews did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, because He did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies. Those who did believe came to understand (because He told them - John 14) that He would return. So - we understand the OT prophecies of world-wide peace, the lion and the lamb lying down together, etc, as prophecies of the time when the Lord returns - but that is not the way they were understood at the time they were recorded.

hope that helps?

 

[JJ59]

I always thought there was an OT “Day of the Lord” that was a prophecy of the Second Coming? Not sure though, don’t quote me on that.

God Bless.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is a link that you can descern, maybe you will not find all these to be about the 2nd coming but it is helpful geocities.com/cobblestoneministries/2007/OurGodShallCome_SecondComingInHebrewScriptures.html

Many Jews were confused and expected those 2nd coming prophecies to be about His first coming. Many of them were not expecting a suffering servant. As we know some Jews actually got it and they became to first Christians.

 

[Fidelis]

Is there any basis for the Second Coming in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament? This has been one sticking point for me.

The Old Testament was in every way a preparation of the FIRST Coming of the Messiah, and even when that came it was fulfilled beyond their expectations. Any interpretations that one gets out the the OT about Jesus’ Second Coming at the end of time is pure speculation or reading into the text. It simply was not on the radar for ancient Israel.

Having said that, the Jews have their own extra-biblical tradition and beleifs about the consumation of all things that you may find interesting. I recommend you browse around the online Jewish Encyclopedia to see what you can find.

 

[Robin_L.in_TX]

Any interpretations that one gets out the the OT about Jesus’ Second Coming at the end of time is pure speculation or reading into the text. It simply was not on the radar for ancient Israel.

It may not have been on the ancient Jews radar screens (Very funny–they didn’t have radar either) but it was certainly on God’s. The Jews who became Christian didn’t understand how Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies–that’s why Jesus explained it to them on the road to Emmaus.

Saying that Scripture doesn’t allow for a meaning that the original writers intended, totally omits the intent of the Holy Spirit Who inspired the authors. It is important to learn the historical intent of the authors, but that is not enough. One must also try to discern God’s meaning as revealed in and through Jesus, and then try to see what He is telling us today in our lives. God’s Word is transfigurative. He IS. Thus He is speaking to us today in the words written in a very different context. That is why Pope John Paul II always encouraged us to place ourselves within the Scripture readings at Mass–to welcome God’s Word deep within us and allow ourselves to be enlightened and transfigured by Him.

Pope Benedict XVI touches on this in Jesus of Nazareth.

In Christ’s peace and joy,

Robin

 

[Cachonga]

The writers of scripture wrote as they were led by the Holy Spirit, even if they didn’t understand it. John, in his Revelation, talks about the Kings of the East coming with an army of 200 million. At the time this was written the total world population was less than this, and for a long time people assumed it meant an “innumerable amount”. I believe it was in 1968 (certainly the late 1960’s) when Chairman Moa announced that China (East of Israel) had a standing army of 200 million. My point is – regardless of what the writers, or teachers, understood; God has given testimony in the Old Testament of the 2nd coming. If you look at Luke 4:16-21, you will see where Jesus reads from the prophet Isaiah (during the synagogue service). After he reads the scriptures, he closes the book, hands it back and sits down. Why was everyone staring at him? Turn to Isa 61:1-7 and you’ll see what they were expecting to be read. Jesus only read up to the middle of verse 2 (this covers His 1st appearing). From the middle of verse 2 onward covers what can be expected at His 2nd coming. The Jews had 2 “pictures” of Messiah (Conquering King and Suffering Servant; some thought there would be 2 different Messiah’s – which is (in my humble, fallible opinion) why John the Baptist asked “Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?” (Mark 11:3). John certainly knew Jesus was the suffering servant (John 1:29, 36)). When Jesus came to Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, everyone expected Him to assume the throne, throw the Romans out and establish God’s kingdom. When it didn’t happen, it was easy for the religious leaders to incite the crowds to yell “Crucify him” a week later. There are many passages in the Old Testament, as well as the New Testament, which talk about the 2nd coming of Jesus.

Keep searching the Scriptures – there’s a lot to be learned from them!

 

[PJM]

=Roamin_Xian;4967402]Is there any basis for the Second Coming in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament? This has been one sticking point for me.

My dear friend in Christ,

I fear your seeking the “right thing,” in the wrong place.

The Old Testament is fullfilled, made complete and made Perfect in the New Testament.

John 14: 1 “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2* In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you,** I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” *** 5* Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” 6* **Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.” **

The “Second Comming” cannot exit in the Old Testament, because the “Chosen People” failed to recogonize the first comming (That of Jesus as the long awaited Messiah… )

However:
Isaiah 45: "19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. 20 It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; when they cry to the LORD because of oppressors he will send them a savior, ** (MOSES) **and will defend and deliver them. 21 And the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians (through MOSES) ; and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day and worship with sacrifice and burnt offering, and they will make vows to the LORD and perform them. 22 And the LORD will smite Egypt, smiting and healing, and they will return to the LORD, and he will heed their supplications and heal them.

Luje 2" "8 And in that region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9* And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with fear. 10 And the angel said to them, “Be not afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people; 11* for to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12* And this will be a sign for you: you will find a babe wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14* “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!”

Love and prayers,

 

[ryanoneil]

I always thought there was an OT “Day of the Lord” that was a prophecy of the Second Coming? Not sure though, don’t quote me on that.

God Bless.

The “Day of the Lord” is prophecy of Christ’s First coming. At the beginning of Zechariah he concentrates on the sixth-century B.C. historical setting. In the second half of the book he focuses on the Messiah’s coming and the New People He will choose for Himself (made up of Jew and Gentile alike).

The fulfillment of Zechariah (by Jesus) has itself become a prefigurement pointing to His Second Coming. In otherwords, the [end of the Old Covenant age and begining of the Church age] prefigures [the end of the Church age and the beginning of eternity].

 

[Cachonga]

PJM – Is that Isaiah reference correct? When I got to Isa 45:19-22 I get something completely different. I did, however, find your reference in Isa 19:19-22. Also, what version are you using? I looked in the KJV, RSV, ASV, YLT, and NAS, and none of them have Moses in the verses. Is this in a Catholic version, or is it your personal interpretation? There are still things in the Old Testament that haven’t been fulfilled. As I mentioned last time, Isa 61:2-7 (from where Jesus left off reading) says, “… and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;. To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien [shall be] your plowmen and your vinedressers. But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: [men] shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. For your shame [ye shall have] double; and [for] confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.”

ryanoniel - there are many references to “the day of the Lord”. I would point to Jeremiah 46:10 as an example (“For this [is] the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.”). This does not sound like the first coming of Jesus, and it isn’t something that has already been fulfilled, so it is still to come. In Malachi (4:5) we read, “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:” John the Baptist came in the “spirit and power of Elijah”, but the first coming of Jesus was not the “dreadful day of the Lord”. In Revelation we see the 2 prophets in Jerusalem that will (eventually) be killed by the anti-Christ. One of these is Elijah (there is some dispute on who the other one is – my own opinion is that it’s Enoch, other people claim it will be Moses).

 

[ryanoneil]

ryanoniel - there are many references to “the day of the Lord”. I would point to Jeremiah 46:10 as an example (“For this [is] the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.”). This does not sound like the first coming of Jesus, and it isn’t something that has already been fulfilled, so it is still to come. In Malachi (4:5) we read, “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:” John the Baptist came in the “spirit and power of Elijah”, but the first coming of Jesus was not the “dreadful day of the Lord”. In Revelation we see the 2 prophets in Jerusalem that will (eventually) be killed by the anti-Christ. One of these is Elijah (there is some dispute on who the other one is – my own opinion is that it’s Enoch, other people claim it will be Moses).

Read it again. In Rev 11:8 the great city which is mystically called Egypt is Jerusalem. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said their would be no stone of the Temple left standing. The day of the Lord occured in 70 A.D. within the generation the Lord predicted. Was this the Second Coming of the Lord? No. But it was Christ fulfilling the everything in the Old Testament so we can be assured that He will do the same at the end of time.

Events in the Old Testament became prophecies of still future events. Christ fulfilled them within the 70 years between His birth and the visable end of the Old Covenant age. Those events of Christ, themselves become prophecies of still future events at the end of time.

Peace

 

[Cachonga]

So the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was the fulfillment of the Day of the Lord? Jeremiah 46:10 says, "For this [is] the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.” How is the destruction of the Temple by the Roman legions become God avenging himself of his adversaries? Seems to me the Roman Legions would be among God’s adversaries.And what about the sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates? That’s a good distance away from Rome. And where was Elijah before this happened? Certainly you don’t mean John the Baptist? He came for one purpose - to point to Christ. After he pointed out “The lamb that takes away the sin of the world” his ministry began to dry up. Eventually he was imprisoned and beheaded, but this was a long time before the Temple was destroyed. If you think this was Elijah come before the destruction, you have quite an imagination. Tell you what, I’ve given some evidence from scriptures. You’ve attempted to refute it. We both agree that the other is wrong. I didn’t come to argue, just to try and answer the question. I did what I came to do, and so I’m done with this thread.

Pax!

 

[ryanoneil]

So the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was the fulfillment of the Day of the Lord?

Yes. But, I never said it was the final fulfillment.

Jeremiah 46:10 says, "For this [is] the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.” How is the destruction of the Temple by the Roman legions become God avenging himself of his adversaries?

**But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him in reply, "You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and 'coming on the clouds of heaven.’" Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need have we of witnesses? You have now heard the blasphemy; what is your opinion?” They said in reply, “He deserves to die!” (Mat 26:63-66) **

God was “riding on a swift cloud to Egypt” in (Isa 19:1-2). His judgment of the false idols was fulfilled in (Isa 20:1-6) in the form of the Assyrian army’s conquering the Egyptians. How is the destruction of the Egyptians by the Assyrians God avenging himself of his adversaries?

Seems to me the Roman Legions would be among God’s adversaries.And what about the sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates? That’s a good distance away from Rome.

They were His adversaries, but sometimes God uses His enemies to deliver judgment.

As far as specific fulfillment of that particular passage, I don’t know what to say. Jeremiah and the other prophets start by describing specific happenings of their time. Many of these events then become OT types which point toward Christ. So, the “day of the Lord” is when God delivers His remnant from the hands of their oppressors. It happened in the OT then became prophecy. Christ fulfilled them, in the Apocalypse, within a generation. Then that fulfillment became a prophecy of the final fulfillment at the end of time.

Take the case of Isaiah 7:14. Jerusalem was besieged by the Syrians and ten northern tribes of Israel. Jerusalem is spared from its enemies and in fewer than 70 years the ten northern tribes, that rejected David’s heirs, are utterly conquered, dispersed, and left without a trace. Jerusalem was saved but not every descendant of Abraham benefited from that salvation.

The fulfillment of Isaiah (Isa 8:3-4) then pointed to Christ. Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. And the same 70 year pattern unfolded, only this time Jerusalem was the ten northern tribes. The birth of Jesus signaled the coming slavation of God’s faithful remnant and the destruction of the faithless majority. So when Matthew 1:23 uses this prophecy it includes the entire series of events surrounding Isaiah’s time.

So, when St. John writes Revelation he does the same thing. He identifies the “great city” with Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified. Jerusalem is also called Babylon and the harlot.

Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. (Mat 23:36-38)

So, as far as Jeremiah is concerned, I can’t speak to a literal fulfillment. But as far as types are concerned, the closest I could think of would be (Rev 16:12) when he sixth angel emptied his bowl on the great river Euphrates. Its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East. (Rev 16:12)

And where was Elijah before this happened? Certainly you don’t mean John the Baptist? He came for one purpose - to point to Christ. After he pointed out “The lamb that takes away the sin of the world” his ministry began to dry up. Eventually he was imprisoned and beheaded, but this was a long time before the Temple was destroyed. If you think this was Elijah come before the destruction, you have quite an imagination.

I’m speaking of the 70 years of covenental trasition between the beginning of the New Covenant age and the end of the Old Covenant age.

If your thinking of the two witnesses of (Rev 11) that describes the same three and a half Roman-Jewish war with different symbols.

Tell you what, I’ve given some evidence from scriptures. You’ve attempted to refute it. We both agree that the other is wrong. I didn’t come to argue, just to try and answer the question. I did what I came to do, and so I’m done with this thread.

Pax!

That is fine. We can agree to disagree and it is nothing personal. We are all here sharing ideas (and I apologize for going into crusader mode).

Peace!

 

[Roamin_Xian]

I appreciate all the posts

 

[libbybeth]

As I understand it, there is no specific reference in the OT or the Hebrew Bible re the Second Coming; however, the OT does have several references tot he Day of the Lord, which appear to refer to the Second Coming and the End of the World. In the NT, Jesus himself clearly indicated that he would come again; he referred to what would happen before then, and at that time. It seems to tie up with the OT

Libbybeth