Rationalizing Free Will

[jjb5985]

Here is something I’ve had trouble with. Many people bring up the issue of free will in relation to Gods’ omnipresence and omnipotence, meaning that if God created everything with the knowledge of how it all would turn out, we don’t have free will. We are just going along according to God’s plan. Now, I know the various arguements against this, however, I realized the difficulty explaining this comes even without factoring God into the equation.

Let me explain. Even if we take God out of it, if a person with a set genetic code is put into a certain enviornment, will their actions be a result of simply the interaction between their genes and environment? If you took 20 people with the exact same genes and managed to raise them all in the exact same environment with the exact same experiences (purely hypothetical), would they all basically turn out the same and make the same exact decisions? If not, what would cause the difference?

This has nothing to do with how God fits in as I am wondering about how to explain the very concept of having a free will. It seems as though I intuitively believe in free will, but its hard to logically explain it. I feel like it may just be beyond what I can comprehend, but saying we can’t understand it is often seen as a cop out by those looking for answers.

Anyone have a good explanation or source of explanation?

 

[Maranatha]

Let us know if this essay addresses your concerns.

Freewill and Predestination

If God is not love but only knowledge, then it is difficult or impossible to see how human free will and divine predestination can both be true. But if God is love, there is a way.

more

 

[Mike_Brick]

Even if we take God out of it, if a person with a set genetic code is put into a certain enviornment, will their actions be a result of simply the interaction between their genes and environment? If you took 20 people with the exact same genes and managed to raise them all in the exact same environment with the exact same experiences (purely hypothetical), would they all basically turn out the same and make the same exact decisions? If not, what would cause the difference?

This has already been done in studies on identical twins, who’s DNA is the same, and who were raised in the same invironment at the same time. Often their personality, intellect and behaviors are different. Were they truly identical in every way, that would prove we would be nothing but “animals”, and that would refute the creation narrative. Mankind is different than animals, and have intellect and free will. Anyone who has had temptation, and resisted that urging proves humans are different than animals who act out instinct alone.

 

[scylla]

To state that there is no free will is an evil thought. Even if actions are so far removed from God, if there were no free will and with Gods infinite knowledge any action would be forseen and actually God’s action.
So God would be responsible for any sin, which is why this is such an evil concept. It is attributing every sin to God and not to man, as nothing is man’s fault. This is attractive to man as from the beginning we have never wanted to own up to our own actions. We all remember Adam blaming the sin on the woman that God gave him.
Sin is always someone elses fault, but eliminating free will attributes all sin to God.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[JimG]

Obviously if we do not have free will, then all our actions are determined, not by us, but by natural forces. If that is the case, we have no control over our actions, and all laws, (which try to regulate behavior) should be repealed. No one can be held responsible for actions over which they have no control.

The corollary is that if we are only matter, then determinism is a given. We cannot escape it. Only if we have a rational, immaterial soul as part of our makeup, can we escape determinism and be capable of choice.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Let me explain. Even if we take God out of it, if a person with a set genetic code is put into a certain enviornment, will their actions be a result of simply the interaction between their genes and environment? If you took 20 people with the exact same genes and managed to raise them all in the exact same environment with the exact same experiences (purely hypothetical), would they all basically turn out the same and make the same exact decisions? If not, what would cause the difference?

Science would say, “yes sort of”. In fact the environment contains some random events at the sub-atomic level which are inherently impossible to control or predict. The mechanism of the cell is so sensitive that one tiny change can quickly amplify to an observable difference.

According to our current theories, free will should not exist. So there is obviously something very radically wrong with our ideas about how the world works. However exactly what that something is, we don’t know.

 

[Melchior]

Here is something I’ve had trouble with. Many people bring up the issue of free will in relation to Gods’ omnipresence and omnipotence, meaning that if God created everything with the knowledge of how it all would turn out, we don’t have free will. We are just going along according to God’s plan. Now, I know the various arguements against this, however, I realized the difficulty explaining this comes even without factoring God into the equation.

Let me explain. Even if we take God out of it, if a person with a set genetic code is put into a certain enviornment, will their actions be a result of simply the interaction between their genes and environment? If you took 20 people with the exact same genes and managed to raise them all in the exact same environment with the exact same experiences (purely hypothetical), would they all basically turn out the same and make the same exact decisions? If not, what would cause the difference?

This has nothing to do with how God fits in as I am wondering about how to explain the very concept of having a free will. It seems as though I intuitively believe in free will, but its hard to logically explain it. I feel like it may just be beyond what I can comprehend, but saying we can’t understand it is often seen as a cop out by those looking for answers.

Anyone have a good explanation or source of explanation?

We have free will but it is over-rated and overemphasized. When we elevate our will we bring demote God just a bit. God’s sovereignty trumps our free-will without intruding on it. He chooses where, when and how we will be born. He chooses our family, country, culture and time period. We have a free will with some parameters. But the way some Christians - whether Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, focus on human free will as if we had a completely autonmous free will or that we are free to make any choice are kidding themselves. God is sovereign in all things. It is a mystery how our free will (which is quite limited in the big picture) works within God’s framework but it does. I think the focus should be more on God’s providence, sovereignty and yes, predestination. I would honestly hate to think I am slave to my choices. God is bigger than our will. He allows it and uses it, but he does not need our permission and he more than knows and outcome he ordains it (no I don’t mean he creates people for Hell). Free will has to be understood in that context.

We don’t choose to be born or most of our circumstances. We can make choices only within these parameters. We also don’t choose when we die. That too is God’s realm.

Mel

 

[jjb5985]

Just to make it clear, I am not denying free will. I believe in it, but my question regards how I would logically explain this to someone (an atheist for instance) outside the context of God if that is even possible. It seems even randomness at a quantum level wouldn’t explain things fully as we still don’t control that.

I guess what gets me thinking is that I believe I have free will, but I think what if there was someone with my exact same dna who had all the same experiences I had from the moment of conception, (not possible realistically as we can’t have the same parents, same location in space, same quantum randomness taking place, same diet, same experiences 100%and so on even with identical twins) how would that person act or choose any differently than I currently do? What is it beyond my environment and dna that makes me choose one choice over another?

I guess it seems to me free will only becomes possible to explain with God because then you can say it “is beyond us”. Yet, that always seems like a cop out, especially to an atheist or agnostic who is asking you for answers.

 

[JimG]

I guess it seems to me free will only becomes possible to explain with God because then you can say it “is beyond us”.

Free will, to be free, must not be beyond us, but rather inherent to us.

Philosophically speaking, one need to go so far as to invoke God; one need only conclude than we are at some level more than matter.

 

[Mike_Brick]

Just to make it clear, I am not denying free will. I believe in it, but my question regards how I would logically explain this to someone (an atheist for instance) outside the context of God if that is even possible. It seems even randomness at a quantum level wouldn’t explain things fully as we still don’t control that.

I guess what gets me thinking is that I believe I have free will, but I think what if there was someone with my exact same dna who had all the same experiences I had from the moment of conception, (not possible realistically as we can’t have the same parents, same location in space, same quantum randomness taking place, same diet, same experiences 100%and so on even with identical twins) how would that person act or choose any differently than I currently do? What is it beyond my environment and dna that makes me choose one choice over another?

I guess it seems to me free will only becomes possible to explain with God because then you can say it “is beyond us”. Yet, that always seems like a cop out, especially to an atheist or agnostic who is asking you for answers.

I took the liberty to highlight your statement above to illustrate something possibly questionable in your line of thinking, namely, what MAKES you choose one thing over another. If you are made to choose, you are not human, you’re only an animal acting out its instinct. Because of part of their nature, humans are somewhat predictible, but because of their higher nature they are not absolutely predictible. Before retiring 3 years ago, I spent over 33 years in law enforcement and have learned humans are not only a product of their DNA and environment, but a product of their choices. Many people believe much of crime is a result of poverty, yet the period of the Great Depression in the United States, where there was a lot of poverty, was a period of a much lower rate of crime than today where there is a lot of affluence. And to go a step further why is it that some humans rise above their so called environment to a life of greatness, while others fall well below what was expected of them? While all of the answers to WHY are very complex, choice must exist, there must be room for folks to choose by their own WILL. We’re there no free will there is only incident and maybe accident, nothing else. We only have to look at groups of people to see they are not “MADE” to do something or the other, (with the exception of psychotics, who seem to be lacking that freedom of choice).

I hope I haven’t confused you. There are many, many people, especially the more Calvinistic protestants that believe man is so depraved there is nothing he/she can do to change, and God made them that way. What a sad, hopeless existence that must be, to only be a less than human creature acting out what God did to them!

Peace

 

[Catholic_Dude]

We have free will but it is over-rated and overemphasized. When we elevate our will we bring demote God just a bit. God’s sovereignty trumps our free-will without intruding on it. He chooses where, when and how we will be born. He chooses our family, country, culture and time period. We have a free will with some parameters. But the way some Christians - whether Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, focus on human free will as if we had a completely autonmous free will or that we are free to make any choice are kidding themselves. God is sovereign in all things. It is a mystery how our free will (which is quite limited in the big picture) works within God’s framework but it does. I think the focus should be more on God’s providence, sovereignty and yes, predestination. I would honestly hate to think I am slave to my choices. God is bigger than our will. He allows it and uses it, but he does not need our permission and he more than knows and outcome he ordains it (no I don’t mean he creates people for Hell). Free will has to be understood in that context.

We don’t choose to be born or most of our circumstances. We can make choices only within these parameters. We also don’t choose when we die. That too is God’s realm.

Mel

The only time free will is “overrated and overemphasized” is when people want an excuse to sin and trick their conscience into thinking they are fine.

There is no “elevating” our free will above God, nobody who believes in free will makes such a claim because we realize it does no such thing. Infact its really only Catholics that can understand such verses as in the Lord’s Prayer where we say “Thy Will be Done” because we realize the greatest freedom is to recognize God’s Will and WILLINGLY submit to it.

There is a lot of truth to your post but at the same time you should recognize nobody is making the claim free will is somehow undermining God or even attempting to.

 

[jjb5985]

I took the liberty to highlight your statement above to illustrate something possibly questionable in your line of thinking, namely, what MAKES you choose one thing over another. If you are made to choose, you are not human, you’re only an animal acting out its instinct. Because of part of their nature, humans are somewhat predictible, but because of their higher nature they are not absolutely predictible. Before retiring 3 years ago, I spent over 33 years in law enforcement and have learned humans are not only a product of their DNA and environment, but a product of their choices. Many people believe much of crime is a result of poverty, yet the period of the Great Depression in the United States, where there was a lot of poverty, was a period of a much lower rate of crime than today where there is a lot of affluence. And to go a step further why is it that some humans rise above their so called environment to a life of greatness, while others fall well below what was expected of them? While all of the answers to WHY are very complex, choice must exist, there must be room for folks to choose by their own WILL. We’re there no free will there is only incident and maybe accident, nothing else. We only have to look at groups of people to see they are not “MADE” to do something or the other, (with the exception of psychotics, who seem to be lacking that freedom of choice).

I hope I haven’t confused you. There are many, many people, especially the more Calvinistic protestants that believe man is so depraved there is nothing he/she can do to change, and God made them that way. What a sad, hopeless existence that must be, to only be a less than human creature acting out what God did to them!

Peace

Yes, I suppose it would be better to say “allows” you to choose or some other wording.

I hate it when people make so many excuses for their decisions (not saying some excuses aren’t legitimate) because in my mind they are free to choose and aren’t slaves. Yet, when it comes to explaining this belief, it only seems self evident. I can’t really come up with a logical defense for why someone “freely” chose something vs. choosing it because they were in a sense programmed to choose via the interaction between their genes and environment.

Two people can grow up in a poor environment and one may choose a life of crime and another to not commit crimes. But a person who doesn’t believe in free will could always argue that the person who chose not to commit crimes still made that choice based on the disgust they felt in that environment. The other person chose to commit crimes because it was all they knew.

A non believer in free will would say anyone with the same dna and life experiences would all make the same choices assuming both the experiences and dna were 100% the same. (not just a similar environment, but exactly the same experiences down to every single blink of the eye) This is not humanly possible, but it is still hard to argue against this type of reasoning as I haven’t found anything that could “prove” them wrong.

I’m playing devil’s advocate in a sense with some of this. I’m merely trying to play the role of what I may hear so I know how to defend free will.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

If God even for a moment could give the angels in heaven free will, then how much more should the spiritully labotomized not be given it for less than a thousand years. People whom he should not even regard as much according to the world. Where the week are ill afforded its grace.

 

[Mike_Brick]

Yes, I suppose it would be better to say “allows” you to choose or some other wording…

…I can’t really come up with a logical defense for why someone “freely” chose something vs. choosing it because they were in a sense programmed to choose via the interaction between their genes and environment.

If you get entangled in discussion with any person who believes people are “programmed to choose via the interaction between their genes and environment”, run, don’t just walk away. You cannot come up with anything logical enough for them, when what they believe defies all logic. They believe humans are only animals, no more, no less. Take a look around, could all man-made things you see be produced by animals?

Yes, the things people do often defy logic and you may never understand their choice. But if human, their action is choice even if bad!

 

[jjb5985]

If you get entangled in discussion with any person who believes people are “programmed to choose via the interaction between their genes and environment”, run, don’t just walk away. You cannot come up with anything logical enough for them, when what they believe defies all logic. They believe humans are only animals, no more, no less. Take a look around, could all man-made things you see be produced by animals?

Yes, the things people do often defy logic and you may never understand their choice. But if human, their action is choice even if bad!

Yes, I suppose. I just feel like many atheists/agnostic argue against the idea of free will with an all powerful God. In order to argue against this, I would have to show that despite God creating us with a particular genetic code and knowing what kind of lifestyle we would be born into, we can still have free will. I would have to show our choices are more than merely products of these two things interacting. Sense I can’t currently explain free will, I don’t really have much of a comeback therefore failing to show them anything. In their minds, a lack of explanation for this from Christians who say this is what they believe can make religion look illogical.

Although I haven’t really had to debate too many of these people in person, I would rather be prepared. Hence, apologetics forum.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Even if we take God out of it, if a person with a set genetic code is put into a certain enviornment, will their actions be a result of simply the interaction between their genes and environment? If you took 20 people with the exact same genes and managed to raise them all in the exact same environment with the exact same experiences (purely hypothetical), would they all basically turn out the same and make the same exact decisions? If not, what would cause the difference?

Hello jjb,

I have seen identical twins, clones with the same genetic code you might say, raised in the same exact enviorment (family), who were exact opposite one another in regard to morality. There is no need for speaking as if this was a hypothetical situation.

God exists outside of physical time which He created. God looks at the whole of physical time from creation to the end of time as a human looks at a three inch piece of yarn. Simply because God can see physical time and all the free willed choices man makes in physical time, in the same way a human looks at a three inch peice of yarn, doe not mean that God effects or causes what the free willed choices will be. Free will means freedom from the control of God’s will.