RC Sproul interview: Dilemmas of Calvinism

[Contarini]

Ah, well that’s different than the way I heard Sproul & Co. articulate it. And I earlier welcomed anyone to clarify that, so thank you. I certainly understood them to say that the elect not only will not want to reject God, but could not. The choice is gone. It’s not that they continually refuse to reject God, but that rejecting God is no longer even an option.

Well, some things are no longer options–I don’t get up every morning and wonder if I am going to be a church historian or a computer scientist!

The question is, what does it mean for it to be “no longer an option.” I’m pretty confident that Sproul means that the elect no longer want to reject God.

What is your take on this predestination/free will Edwin? Would you go more toward Calvin or perhaps the Catholic position, linked to earlier. Or perhaps something else?

Well, there isn’t just one Catholic position on this issue, but insofar as there is I thoroughly agree with it–that is to say, I think that the things repudiated by the Catholic Church with regard to predestination need to be repudiated. I would describe myself as a Wesleyan Thomist–I am a somewhat reluctant and questioning Thomist on the philosophical side of things (though I’m thinking more of St. Thomas himself than the later Thomists, so perhaps the term is misleading), but I believe in universal prevenient grace, so I reject the later Thomist distinction between sufficient and efficient grace.

Edwin

 

[MarcoPolo]

I believe in universal prevenient grace, so I reject the later Thomist distinction between sufficient and efficient grace.

Does that mean the elect are chosen by God from the beginning of time? IOW, He did not “foresee” who would freely react to grace and then name those people the elect?

I’m just not versed enough in the subject to immediately recognize the tern “universal prevenient grace.”

 

[MarcoPolo]

In keeping with this subject…I am listening to Christopher Cuddy when he was on CAL. He said something I had forgotten, that Calvinists (with varying degree of nuance) believe in double predestination, i.e. that God also predestines some people for hell.

Shouldn’t Sproul and Brown have mentioned this if it’s half the equation? I’m also guessing this is the crux of where Catholics part ways with Calvinistic predestination.

 

[Keef]

Hey everyone, Sorry I’m late to the party, I’m a former student of Spruol works and went to RTS Jackson for seminary, If i can help in some way please fire a question at me. I should be able to you help understand the reformed view in any way I can. My background is similar to Akins. but I was a youth pastor in the PCA not a full blown pastor. So my answers maybe simpled. My teaching style was based on tacking deep seminary topics and breaking them down to the Sunday school level but I will do my best.

 

[MarcoPolo]

If i can help in some way please fire a question at me.

What is your take on the questions in posts 19 and 43 in this thread?

 

[Keef]

What is your take on the questions in posts 19 and 43 in this thread?

question 43-There are two views of predestination in reformed protestantism. One is suprelapsarianism and infralpasarianism. The latter is the view held by the majority of modern calvinists and doesn’t hold to the belief that God made a decree before the foundations of the world to save some and damn others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supralapsarianism_and_infralapsarianism

With that said the ideas is God is not actively working with the reprobate in order to bring about their damnation. He has simply “passed them over”. With the elect he is bringing them into salvation with Christ be giving them the gift of faith, opening the heart and the eyes, and ears (spiritually speaking) to see, receive and obey the truth and preserving them to their salvation to the end of their lives. Man would never seek God on his own without the divine intervention of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the sinner who is already dead in trespasses and sins.

Question 19. Yes, In the short answer the born again new creature in Christ has lost his will to reject Christ because of his new nature he has been given by Christ. Although in this life he will struggle with the desires of his old sinful natures because he is still in the flesh He could never ultimately in the end renounce Christ and truly been among the elect.

I have been through the in’s and out of Presbyterian exams and I feel I have given you basic but valid answers for that view of predestiantion. You can see how the best and brightest theologians down through the centuries have tried to wrestle these issues who have fallen on both sides of the coin and one could write volumes on the subject.

The common misunderstanding of the Calvinist view is that man doesn’t have a will to do whatever he wants. In the Calvinist view man CAN DO whatever he wants and that’s the problem. Without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit man would never choose the true and living God.

God bless you. I hope that helps and have a Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[MarcoPolo]

With that said the ideas is God is not actively working with the reprobate in order to bring about their damnation. He has simply “passed them over”.

Does everyone who is passed over go to hell?

Question 19. Yes, In the short answer the born again new creature in Christ has lost his will to reject Christ because of his new nature he has been given by Christ. Although in this life he will struggle with the desires of his old sinful natures because he is still in the flesh He could never ultimately in the end renounce Christ and truly been among the elect.

Interesting…so there is a loss of free will. So if the earthly being is sinful, what is the Calvinistic view on Purgatory?

 

[Keef]

Does everyone who is passed over go to hell?
Yes, they do according to the Calvinistic view.
Interesting…so there is a loss of free will. So if the earthly being is sinful, what is the Calvinistic view on Purgatory?

The Calvinist view of purgatory is that it is a false doctrine created by the Roman Catholic church and is not scriptural. The Calvinist believes he’s sanctification will be complete when he dies and enters heaven.

 

[Keef]

oops I made it look like my answer to your first question is your quote trying to fix that. Sorry

 

[MarcoPolo]

The Calvinist believes he’s sanctification will be complete when he dies and enters heaven.

Oh my…he will be without sin while still here on earth??

 

[Contarini]

Does that mean the elect are chosen by God from the beginning of time? IOW, He did not “foresee” who would freely react to grace and then name those people the elect?

I’m just not versed enough in the subject to immediately recognize the tern “universal prevenient grace.”

Sorry for using shorthand. This is the Wesleyan concept that God moves everyone in such a way as to enable their salvation, with humans then having the free will to reject God. In other words, our ability to choose God comes not from our natural free will (which, as St. Augustine taught, is unable of itself to turn toward God) but from the gracious moving of God “going before” (this is what “prevenient” means) our own action.

Edwin