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zaida
Guest
Im reading the Orthodox Way and the more I learn the more I love…I also love my own RC faith…how much can/should we incorporate in our spirituality from the orthodox?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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JW55
Guest
You don’t name anything specifically. Catholics and the Orthodox share most core beliefs but there are some differences. In a general sense, I would say if you are Catholic you must not deviate from those beliefs that are required by our church. The Orthodox faith is a beautiful faith and I personally can’t see anything wrong with incorporating Orthodox prayers or certain customs in your personal worship, if there is not a conflict. of course in public Catholic worship you would want to follow the practices of the Mass as the church requires. The Eastern Catholic church Divine Liturgy may provide a happy medium for you.
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Peter_J
Guest
Are you familiar with the website byzcath.org/ (Byzantine Catholic Church in America)?
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zaida
Guest
Thank you so much for the responses…Ive been on the byzantine forum and I get a lot out of it…
I am reading “the orthodox way”
I think my idea is that of course I will follow RC theology - but at times, explore icons, ideas such “theosis” (which I believe we call “divinization” in our RC faith - but we probably dont emphasize it as much as the Orthodox?
I do have the “Eastern rite” in the back of my mind, as well…but since I’m a relatively knew catholic (going on 3 years), I don’t want to start thinking about changing…and I love the RC faith, and many elements of RC spirituality
I am reading “the orthodox way”
I think my idea is that of course I will follow RC theology - but at times, explore icons, ideas such “theosis” (which I believe we call “divinization” in our RC faith - but we probably dont emphasize it as much as the Orthodox?
I do have the “Eastern rite” in the back of my mind, as well…but since I’m a relatively knew catholic (going on 3 years), I don’t want to start thinking about changing…and I love the RC faith, and many elements of RC spirituality
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Dorothy
Guest
Keep in mind that the pope is the visible head of the Church, beginning with Saint Peter. The Byzantine Catholic Church is under the pope. The Orthodox have a different view on that. Unfortunately, there was a schism thousands of years ago.
With regard to “theosis” and “divinization”, we have the Doctors of the Church on prayer. Some of them are St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lixieux, St. Catharine of Siena, and others.
You may even be interested in finding out if there are Third Orders near you that you can visit, to see what they are like. There are Lay Carmelites (O.Carm.), Secular Carmelites (O.C.D.), Lay Dominicans, and others. One can see if they have a calling by attending some of their meetings.
I have two Catholic friends that yearly attend an icon-writing retreat. The five-day retreat was led by an Orthodox master at writing icons. Their particular retreat was held at a Catholic Monastery. of contemplative nuns.
The icons they “wrote”, praying all the time while doing so, were extraordinary!
Peace,
Dorothy
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rben20
Guest
Eastern spirituality is part of the Church, it is the other lung of the Church as St. Pope John Paul II said. There is nothing wrong with being drawn to the eastern spirituality and learning to breath with both lungs as we are called to do.
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Peter_J
Guest
A couple add-ons …
If you’re looking for forums, I agree that byzcath has a good one. There’s also one here, forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=119
Are there any Eastern Catholic (or Orthodox) parishes in your area? I realize you’re not thinking about visiting them at this stage, but I’d just like to get the whole picture.
Blessings,
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babochka
Guest
This shouldn’t be an issue for exploring Byzantine spirituality. Most Byzantine Catholics rely upon Orthodox sources. There is nothing in Orthodox spirituality that is incompatible with Catholicism.
Of course, since the OP is interested in Othodox/Byzantine spirituality, a better recommendation might be St. Athanasius, also a doctor of the Church.
This would be an excellent way to explore some variations of western spirituality, but it won’t really allow one to explore what is found in the Byzantine East.
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FollowChrist34
Guest
I thoroughly agree with this West/East lung approach. Eastern spirituality has richness and vibrancy that can enhance RC (or West) faith to a great degree.
I have thought for years about visiting Orthodox, Eastern Catholic or Byzantine prayer services. Recently I started thinking about this again.
I notice just searching online though re the Orthodox that this warm, fuzzy “other lung” approach is not necessarily… reciprocated. I get the impression that quite a few Orthodox don’t have much use for the Pope or the RC. Can someone speak to this - an honest assessment of Orthodox views of RC? (I know we are in schism - I am looking to learn what everyday Orthodox faithful think and feel about RCs.)
I always hear RCs talk with such touching romanticism and admiration for the Orthodox Church. And I should say I had a Greek Orthodox friend years ago who really admired and respected the Catholic Church, knew more about it than I did at the time. But it is an understatement to say that all Orthodox don’t necessarily share this view. They are not Sancho Panza to our Don Quixote. Many seem to see our fondness and lung mentality as quite condescending - insulting, even - in complete disregard of the Orthodox belief that they are the true Church, without the Pope. That said, I think often those espousing these anti RC views are the most ill-informed among the Orthodox faithful.
(Perhaps this should go on another thread…I am just posting here because I am kind of in the same spot - I deeply admire the spirituality of the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches and having been looking at maybe visiting one this fall.)
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Dorothy
Guest
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I tried my best with the little I know about this subject. However, the op did ask this, which prompted the response I made:
“I think my idea is that of course I will follow RC theology - but at times, explore icons, ideas such “theosis” (which I believe we call “divinization” in our RC faith - but we probably dont emphasize it as much as the Orthodox?”
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HeartnSoulMan
Guest
A member of the orthodox church who is trying his best to live a holy life can tell a lukewarm catholic many things that will seem wonderful because in their foundation they are based on Catholic truth and experience.
The more impressed you are with orthodox spirituality I would guess is in direct connection to how little you really know or have experienced about catholic spirituality.
Don’t overlook the 70,000 saints we have who have been canonized for their spirituality and/or faithfulness.
If you begin to understand the depth of St. John of the Cross and St. Thomas Aquinas, as well as St. Theresa, St Anthony of Padua, St Joseph of Cupertina and St Mary Margaret or modern saints like St, Mother Theresa and St Padre Pio and a thousand others.You will find little to gain your attention from any other religion.
We are members of the one true and apostolic church filled with saints and miracles because of our spirituality, no other compares.
The more impressed you are with orthodox spirituality I would guess is in direct connection to how little you really know or have experienced about catholic spirituality.
Don’t overlook the 70,000 saints we have who have been canonized for their spirituality and/or faithfulness.
If you begin to understand the depth of St. John of the Cross and St. Thomas Aquinas, as well as St. Theresa, St Anthony of Padua, St Joseph of Cupertina and St Mary Margaret or modern saints like St, Mother Theresa and St Padre Pio and a thousand others.You will find little to gain your attention from any other religion.
We are members of the one true and apostolic church filled with saints and miracles because of our spirituality, no other compares.
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Peter_J
Guest
You are correct right: “two lungs” is very much a Catholic idea. (Well maybe not just Catholic. Certainly I cannot recall hearing any Anglican speak against it. I just mean that “two lungs” is pretty foreign to Orthodox thinking.)
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babochka
Guest
But remember that “orthodox” spirituality is Catholic. The Catholic Church and experience is not limited to the Latin Rite, and the Eastern Churches have also produced thousands of saints. If the OP is drawn to the spirituality of the Christian East, how is that to be discouraged any more than someone who is drawn to Carmelite spirituality vs. Franciscan spirituality? Our spirituality is distinct from that which is typically found in the Latin Rite, but it is every bit as Catholic and its existence enriches the Body of Christ. If Byzantine spirituality resonates with a person, and following the path that has been followed by thousands of saints before draws that person to Christ, why would you discourage a person from that path?
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brittrossiter
Guest
I personally do not think it is insulting; I think that one of the greatest tragedies of Christendom was how the Schism has deprived both the East and the West of the piety, traditions, and unique spiritual expressions of all of the respective Churches.
I also know of many Orthodox who embrace and encourage the study the pre-schism Western fathers (St. Benedict of Nursia, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory, St. Martin of Tours, etc.), and I even know of some who have spoken warmly of post-schism figures such as Teresa of Ávila.
Yet I am not surprised by your statement that you have seen other Orthodox expressing contrary views.
Trying to avoid too much detail in this post, lest this thread get derailed.
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zaida
Guest
Hi everyone and thank you SO much for all your responses - this is all very helpful to me…(The OP)
A few answers to questions and then some more questions of my own:
1)One person asked if Ive visited an eastern rite or orthodox church - Ive met, on the byzantine forum, an the eastern rite section of CAF, a lovely woman who has invited me to an eastern rite service…due to a strange summer, involving traveling and unwell family members, and life being a bit chaotic, I have not yet been able to do so…but I will keep in touch with her…
A few answers to questions and then some more questions of my own:
1)One person asked if Ive visited an eastern rite or orthodox church - Ive met, on the byzantine forum, an the eastern rite section of CAF, a lovely woman who has invited me to an eastern rite service…due to a strange summer, involving traveling and unwell family members, and life being a bit chaotic, I have not yet been able to do so…but I will keep in touch with her…
- I love that idea of icon-writing workshops, and that roman catholics are taking part - will have to look into that!
- Someone advised checking out certain Saints who have writing and whose lives explored “divinization” or “deification”…I have always been interested in Padre Pio…I would imagine I could safely read up on and explore saints from both the latin/eastern rite AND the orthodox churches safely? (If I “take to” an orthodox saint, who is not a Catholic Saint, is that ok?)
- John Paul and the “two lungs” quote - did he mean that about the Esatern rite in full communion…or was he incorporating the orthodox too?
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HeartnSoulMan
Guest
The orthodox church has authentic sacraments and a true priesthood but they are of their own free will cut off the complete membership in the one true catholic church.
There is only one true church begun by Christ, there is only one mystical body of Christ and it is the catholic church. This life of Christ which is the Catholic Church do not extend to the orthodox schism, the protestant churches or any other heretical church… .
There are serious differences in our theologies. For example the equality of the persons in the Holy Trinity. For us this is a dogma. Denying this would be required to become an authentic orthodox and right away you are a heretic.If our theologies were equal or the same there would not be a schism they would be a different rite within our church as we have eastern rite Catholics but they are not orthodox.
There is no such thing as a Christian covenant with God. There is only a Covenant with God in His Church and His keeper of the keys. There is only a Catholic Covenant with God., the new covenant… The Catholic church extends grace to others outside of our church by its will to save souls. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
There is only one true church begun by Christ, there is only one mystical body of Christ and it is the catholic church. This life of Christ which is the Catholic Church do not extend to the orthodox schism, the protestant churches or any other heretical church… .
There are serious differences in our theologies. For example the equality of the persons in the Holy Trinity. For us this is a dogma. Denying this would be required to become an authentic orthodox and right away you are a heretic.If our theologies were equal or the same there would not be a schism they would be a different rite within our church as we have eastern rite Catholics but they are not orthodox.
There is no such thing as a Christian covenant with God. There is only a Covenant with God in His Church and His keeper of the keys. There is only a Catholic Covenant with God., the new covenant… The Catholic church extends grace to others outside of our church by its will to save souls. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
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zaida
Guest
Hi HeartSoulMan - Thank you, and I understand all your points, and certainly know about the theological differences, and the RC view. As my original post and subsequent posts show, I’m more concerned now with looking at places where the traditions meet, and where I can explore orthodox spirituality without violating the teaching of the RC Church.
Other posters- if you can see my post right before heartandsouls - and my particular question re “two lungs of the Church” - it would seem that Pope John meant the eastern rite (as opposed to Orthodox) but then, why is it considered offensive by some orthodox (if it wasn’t referring to them…) if you know what I mean? From earlier posts, some people implied that its considered a beautiful idea (this 2 lungs) but others are offended by it?
Thanks everyone and blessings!
Other posters- if you can see my post right before heartandsouls - and my particular question re “two lungs of the Church” - it would seem that Pope John meant the eastern rite (as opposed to Orthodox) but then, why is it considered offensive by some orthodox (if it wasn’t referring to them…) if you know what I mean? From earlier posts, some people implied that its considered a beautiful idea (this 2 lungs) but others are offended by it?
Thanks everyone and blessings!
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HeartnSoulMan
Guest
In the attempt since Vatican 2 to reconcile the orthodox and the protestants many things have been allowed to placate various groups. In the end protestants are further from the truth then they were fifty years ago. Since then they have allowed woman priest and practicing homosexual bishops. They have done these things to make sure we all understand that they have no desire to be Catholic. It would have been better in my opinion to stick to the truth and let them know that without the Catholic churches assistance not one member of the human race can gain salvation.
It would have been better to let them know the differences and stuck to creating holy people as witnesses instead of spending fifty years renouncing holy people. They began right after Vatican 2 with vocation signs that said Saints need not apply. I know bishops who removed all statues and pictures of the BVM so they would’t offend outsiders and probably himself. He even had the pictures and statues of the BVM destroyed in the monastery that he was superior in at the same time as being the local bishop.
I have witnessed miracles attached to the reception of sacraments and others tied to the recitation of the Holy Rosary. Our faith is Christ among his people. The Catholic Church is in a mystical way Heaven on Earth. Unfortunately it is filled with sinners and now we have some in the hierarchy>
They talk about holy communion for divorced remarried Catholics. No one mentions that the remarriage would not be recognized because it is civil. The person has also sinned against the precepts of the church requiring all Catholics to marry within the Church. To this is scandalous behavior and the responsibilities that may exist to people in the Catholic Marriage. The responsibilities to the first and perhaps only spouse must be dealt with in justice and obedience to the sacraments and the laws of the church before you can look at the possibility of either spouse if they can be granted an annulment being allowed to marry in the church provided they can meet the criteria which they would have failed the first time or they would not be granted an annulment and they would be married until death. These people have no ability to attend confession and Bishops and Cardinals think that we can offer them Holy Communion, preposterously demonic.
It would have been better to let them know the differences and stuck to creating holy people as witnesses instead of spending fifty years renouncing holy people. They began right after Vatican 2 with vocation signs that said Saints need not apply. I know bishops who removed all statues and pictures of the BVM so they would’t offend outsiders and probably himself. He even had the pictures and statues of the BVM destroyed in the monastery that he was superior in at the same time as being the local bishop.
I have witnessed miracles attached to the reception of sacraments and others tied to the recitation of the Holy Rosary. Our faith is Christ among his people. The Catholic Church is in a mystical way Heaven on Earth. Unfortunately it is filled with sinners and now we have some in the hierarchy>
They talk about holy communion for divorced remarried Catholics. No one mentions that the remarriage would not be recognized because it is civil. The person has also sinned against the precepts of the church requiring all Catholics to marry within the Church. To this is scandalous behavior and the responsibilities that may exist to people in the Catholic Marriage. The responsibilities to the first and perhaps only spouse must be dealt with in justice and obedience to the sacraments and the laws of the church before you can look at the possibility of either spouse if they can be granted an annulment being allowed to marry in the church provided they can meet the criteria which they would have failed the first time or they would not be granted an annulment and they would be married until death. These people have no ability to attend confession and Bishops and Cardinals think that we can offer them Holy Communion, preposterously demonic.
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RyanBlack
Guest
Would you explain what you’re talking about? The Orthodox do not deny the equality of the persons in the Holy Trinity.
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zaida
Guest
HeartSoulMan - I see you feel strongly about what you are writing about, and have many important points - but can I please respectfully ask that you start a different thread - my thread is about something totally different - and I’m feeling it is being a bit derailed -
for others - please see my last few posts - Im OP and have a few other questions/comments -
Blessings to all -
for others - please see my last few posts - Im OP and have a few other questions/comments -
Blessings to all -
- Status