RCC difficult to join

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Adventistnomore, thanks for your kind words. Some kind words from Catholics mean everything to me at the moment. I need them to stay the course.

Jmcrae, I will indeed take your advice and make sure I know my prayers for the Sacrament of Reconciliation back to front to avoid any embarrasment. I am easily embarrased, so thanks for the tip!

Contarini, some good points there. However many Catholics have told me that Peter was the first Pope, the first Bishop of Rome, etc and we both agree he was not the first Bishop of Rome Nor was Rome necessarily the centre of early Chriatianity. That is my point, that if you dig a little bit, it is not so simple after all, and certainly not as simple as many Catholics believe. The word Pope certainly was not bandied about as many Catholics believe, in Peter’s day. Same with the authorship of the gospels. It is important because the whole Catholic faith relies on a few verses (Jesus talking to Peter, and 1 Peter 2), so a scholar who argued for a later authorship could also argue that such verses cannot be taken word for word, and thereby raise doubts as to the Biblical foundation to such doctrines as the primacy of Peter.

As for accepting theistic evolution, it undermines the Bible. Not because I am fundamentalist, but beacuse much of Geneis needs to be at least somehow literal for the rest of the Bible to “work.” I will start a new thread on that one, because it can be shown that if Genesis was not literal in some way, neither are many of Jesus’ words true. So the whole Bible hangs on it.

Techno, I will do as you say, and have done so before. Can you post a link for me of indulgences? ie What indulgences are granted for which acts?
 
Contarini said:
But isn’t that a very good reason for going through the process? If your Catholic beliefs were not as firm as you thought, then it’s good that you have discovered this. I had a very similar experience, and that is one of the reasons I’m not Catholic today.

Edwin
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No. Not at all.

Why not join here:

whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/

I typically find first I believe, then someone questions my beliefs, then I find once again the Church was wiser than me and has faced all these questions before (as Adventistnomore put so kindly), and around it goes. The people above (militant atheists) will certainly give you a good run for your money intellectually. Just join up and start a post, but stipulate you don’t wish to discuss genetics unless you are skilled in that area. So, the answer is no. I have faith that the RCC has the answers to my questions. She always has before. And people like Adventistnomore are there to help, as well as other clever Catholics I know and can throw curly questions to. I don’t think that process of belief and doubt, then belief again will ever end, because I am called to debate and dialogue with people of different beliefs and it requires intellectual honesty and the ability to see the other’s view to do so.👍
 
Dear davidarlette,

Firstly, I hope you will very soon be welcomed into the Catholic Church in such a way that you can participate in the full life of the Church through the sacraments!

Now, you say that only you and one other person would have been received into the Church at Easter Vigil Mass. And that’s why I’m responding to you.

Last night at the Easter Vigil Mass I attended, two people were received into the Church. One was absolutely beaming with joy. The other looked solemn and dignified. And me being a cradle Catholic, I felt so honored, privileged, and blessed to witness these two brand new Catholics coming into the Church! Please do not fear that you would be drawing vain attention to yourself by being only one of two … or even if you had been the only one received into the Church at Easter Vigil. You as a unique individual have so much to share with the rest of us, no matter how many other people are in your situation, and no matter how many other people are there to witness your entrance into the Catholic Church.

There are some of us cradle Catholics who have done our best to learn our Faith and live our Faith, who are in fact enthusiastic even if it doesn’t always show, and who sometimes get battle weary and find it So Refreshing to see new converts.

Interestingly, at the Vatican’s Easter Vigil Mass, the Pope received into the Church only six adults! And they were from different parts of the world, and this was in front of the whole world!

As for being called a convert, during this past Lent, I as a cradle Catholic prayed to my patron saint to convert me. What you as a newcomer to the Faith and I as one born into the Faith have in common is that we are both sinners, and therefore both in need of conversion / a change of heart / repentance.

And should you decide to find a new parish to help you get into the Catholic Church faster, may the Holy Spirit lead you and guide you to where He wants you to be!

~~ the phoenix
 
And thanks to you, Phoenix.

I’ll have to ask why it wasn’t offered for me to join at Easter (just me), but I think our Parish here emphasises the group aspect of it. Hence the reluctance for us to be received individually. My wife is at a different stage to me having grown up in an anti-Catholic home, but wants to join for family unity, and because we have dismissed our old AOG church as becoming too focussed on money. She mainly has/had problems with Marianism and praying to Saints for intercession, since she was brought up believeing these things were wrong…and our Parish is as Marian as you can get!

Thanks for your kind words. I really need as much Catholic support and love as I can get at the moment. Why we don’t like “convert” is because when our sponsor uses it, there is a tone of superiority about it, like :“These people were penticostal like you but saw the light.” She really wants to hear us say how wrong our old church was, and keeps giving us stories of converts which I find repulsive. I’d rather just listen to a good Catholic, especially the Irish, have a joke and share their Faith, you know? It is the air of superiority that gets us. Same with Protestant. We never referred to ourselves as such, and I in my heart have been Catholic since at least 1997. So she kind of misplaces her venom against Luther against us, who until recently new very little of him. Augustine was always my hero, not Luther!
 
We have much in common. Augustine too is my fav and when I came back to the church after 25 years of one foot on a banana peel and the other in hell I studied much, devouring anything and everything I could read. Anyway I decided if Christ founded a church, that He wouldn’t allow me to beleive in something that was false that I believed to be fact. So I blindly believed and He gave me understanding. We don’t believe what the Church teaches because it’s plausible, or that we understand it, but rather because the church IS Jesus. I’m not trying to enlighten you, but humility and obedience to the church is a necessary good. Maybe you could offer up your process as penece for others to be converted.

peace
 
As you say that Peter was the chosen leader…Try william Jergen’s FAITH OF THE EARLY FATHERS for plenty of citation’s of Peters headship, as it were being in Rome and also Peters first epistle shows that he is based in and writing from Babylon, a code word for Rome. The Fathers are awesome, especially if you like to read…all kinds of cool stuff. If you can’t get the book, I’ll give you mine. Send me a message with your address.👍

peace
 
I’m going to say some things, just know that I say them in the nicest manner.

There’s a lot more to being catholic than just knowing the teachings and doing research in the church’s teachings. It’s not a matter of putting in your time or passing classes like a college degree. It is belief, culture, environment, obedience, a way of life. The church isn’t something you read up on and get to be a member of because you deserve it. You have to believe in the church and that the church is right. You have to be willing to give in to church teachings and accept the body of Christ. The church is a way of life, a tool to take part in and grow in and get closer to God throughout life. As the body of christ on earth, it’s something to conform to. The church isn’t something we should expect to conform to us. And that’s a good thing.

From my perspective, it sounds like your pride is getting in the way. It sounds like to me that you feel that you deserve being in the church because you knew some priests for 5 years. It sounds like to me that you want to be able to take part in the sacraments, but yet you want the process to be sped up to conform to you. You and your wife want to be accepted as part of the church, yet you admit that your wife doesn’t even fully understand the mass yet. You want to be accepted in the church, yet you’re too embarrassed to stand in front of the church on easter vigil to do so.

As a previous poster said, even cradle catholics have to spend years of learning before they are given the sacraments. I didn’t get confirmed until I was 17, so I spent 17 years getting into the church. It’s a lifelong thing, and there’s a lot of learning about the church to do. I’m sure you can find other religions that will get you in right away with a prayer and baptism. But frankly, that’s because there’s not a whole lot to understand about those churches.

And frankly, if you’re having doubts, then maybe it’s a good thing it’s taking so long for you to get in. Because some of the stuff you bring up isn’t exactly the kind of attitudes a faithful and believing catholic has.

If I were to offer you advice, I’d tell you to drop the pride, do what the RCIA people ask you to do, take your time and make sure you really want to be in the church. And pray for some help and guidance.
 
Thomasf,

No that was not said in kindness. To pretend that I didn’t know what I know would be pride in reverse, which is just another form of pride. Humility is seeing yourself as you are. So I am not going to pretend I know nothing about the church and the Bible, because that would be lying. I have been studying these things for years.

I rang the priest who Catechised me tonight for 5 years. Yes, I do believe I should be accepted into the Church because he says I am ready, and he really knows me. I can ring him and he accepts me as I am. I don’t have to put on any act for him, and he considers my faith honest and genuine. The normal period of Catechesis is one year. He used to joke with me,“You are the best instructed non-Catholic in Sydney” and wished me to join those years ago, but I was courting an AOG pastor’s daughter at the time and was foolish not to do it…

No you did not spend 17 years getting into the church. You were a child for most of that. I am an adult, It’s different.

It is belief, culture, environment, obedience, a way of life
This is my point. Despite believing what the RCC teaches, I guess I just don’t fit in. Which proves my original point: the Catholic Church is too hard to join. It seems you don’t want me in your club.:mad:

Anyway, my priest friend pulled some strings for me, so I may have another avenue open up. At least some Catholics are accepting.

FullofZeal, I will look for that book. I am sure I can find it, beacuse I have heard of it, So it can’t be too uncommon to get a copy I hope. Otherwise I will gratefully accept your copy (thanks).
I am sure it will help to rebuild my faith.🙂
 
davidarlette said:
Thomasf,

It is belief, culture, environment, obedience, a way of life
This is my point. Despite believing what the RCC teaches, I guess I just don’t fit in. Which proves my original point: the Catholic Church is too hard to join. It seems you don’t want me in your club.:mad:

Anyway, my priest friend pulled some strings for me, so I may have another avenue open up. At least some Catholics are accepting.

🙂
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If you don’t fit in, why do you keep trying to get in?
 
davidarlette said:
Thomasf,

No that was not said in kindness. To pretend that I didn’t know what I know would be pride in reverse, which is just another form of pride. Humility is seeing yourself as you are. So I am not going to pretend I know nothing about the church and the Bible, because that would be lying. I have been studying these things for years.
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He’s not saying that.

What he means is that, all the head knowledge is nothing. Most Catholics don’t know that stuff. It’s not necessary. The necessary thing is the heart-knowledge of Christ in the Sacraments.

Once you’ve got that, then nothing will be able to keep you out of the Church. The worries about which Mass to be received at, the anxiety about what the atheists are thinking, the fuss over the Marian doctrines, etc., the opinions of your family and friends - all that stuff will vanish like smoke in a strong wind, once you’ve got that heart-knowledge of and hunger for intimacy with Christ in the Sacraments.

Nobody is saying that you didn’t learn a lot of very interesting stuff during that five years. Nobody is saying that you aren’t, in fact, the best educated guy (for head knowledge of the Catholic faith) on the planet, as far as that goes.

But none of that has any meaning at all, until you get that heart-knowledge - and once you’ve got that, everyone will know it, because there will be no stopping you. When the RCIA leader says “Jump” you won’t be saying, “But I did this already; I jumped last year already - why do I have to do it again?” you’ll be saying, “How high? And is there anyone else in the group who needs my help with the jumping, because I’ve done this before, and maybe I could help them out with it.”
 
The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are pretty similar on this issue. Did you know that in times passed it was expected for someone to remain a Catchumen for at least three years? Unlike protestant churches where church hopping is accepted, or even expected, joining the RCC is a major committment which is not to be taken lightly.
The other issue is the RCC has enough issues relating to cafeteria Catholcism with craddle Catholics that they want to be sure those joining the Church know that is taught and agree with it.
 
Is RCIA a requirement only for the portion of the world that speaks English or is it world-wide?
 
Well as a recent convert myself, I have to say I was actually pretty pleased with the RCIA process. I found that it was a really great way of getting a good basic understanding of most of what the Church teaches and my own research and reading was a great supplement to that. Our priest was more than happy to answer my questions and discuss things with me so when it came time to be confirmed, I really felt like a member. It was great – I didn’t see it as hoop-jumping at all even though I had spent a good four to five years learning a bit about the Church, in prayer and participating in a few masses here and there beforehand. Really great 🙂
 
thomasf said:
If you don’t fit in, why do you keep trying to get in?
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People being what they are like to have their exclusive little clubs. The RCC is not a country club. It is not based on ettiquite. As the One True Church, it is a matter of salvation for me, so I will keep trying to get in with all of my strength, with every fibre of my being. You, Thomas, have no monopoly on either Her or the Lord. As it turns out, we may be received very soon, since the Parish Priest is visiting us on Thursday night. If someone here has been praying for us, thanks, your prayers are being answered, doors are opening finally.
Thomas, frankly I find your lack of Christian charity appalling. Wasn’t what you just said the equivalent of “Why don’t you just F off!?”

The idea of the RCIA is to instruct people in what the RCC believes, so that they know what Catholicism is all about, what it involves (eg weekly Mass, Reconcilitation). My argument has always been that since I understand these things already then why am I being refused entry? As it turns out, I think I found out today. Our sponsor, who we once thought was lovely is extrremely legalistic and old fashioned and would expect anyone to be perfect before joining. This is the same woman who says that all dancing is evil, that people should not wear nice backless dresses to Mass, etc. However, as my priest friend said, if you had to be perfect before joining, no-one would ever be able to join! 😃

I know of a few who have been received by the Church without doing the RCIA.

jmcrae, have you been listening, sweetie? That is my point! I have the head knowledge and now wish to be in full Communion with the church sacramentally. That has been the whole point of this thread.

all that stuff will vanish like smoke in a strong wind, once you’ve got that heart-knowledge of and hunger for intimacy with Christ in the Sacraments I am tearing my hair out here! That is the whole point of this thread. I strongly desire the sacraments and full Communion with the Church. That is what I am complaining about. That I am not allowed to receive them despite having full knowledge and extreme desire to participate in the Scaremantal life of the Church. I especially desire the sacrament of reconciliation and the Eucharist. I was actually granted a special dispensation to receive the Eucharist a couple of times years ago, so I actually know what I am missing out on.

I am told to attend Mass, but cannot receive the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the summit of the Mass. It’s (sorry if this is vulgar) like being expected to cease lovemaking just prior to orgasm. It is the high point, and I just can’t go to Mass and watch every one else receive the Lord, knowing what I am missing out on. I am a sensitive person, and it just plain hurts.
 
We also strongly dislike being called converts. We are already believers
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Yes, I know exactly what you mean!
Christian is Christian is Christian.
I view my reception as having joined the Catholic Christian. I am not “a Catholic”, I am “a Christian”. Joining the Catholic Church has been a process of returning to faith for me as I had fallen away, but it wasn’t conversion as such. There aren’t titles like Catholic and Methodist in heaven, that’s for sure!
 
For those friendly to our cause to join the Church, please pray for us. I am at the end of my rope, to be honest. I accept and agree with all the Chruch teaches (when I read the Catechism), but some of what is taught in the Church (by our sponsor as it turns out) is not Catechismal. I also know there are many Catholics out there who are accepting of others and believe in a God of Mercy rather than legalism, and I hope very soon to be able to be in full Communion with you.

I have left it in the Lord’s hands. Either thurday night will be about arranging reception into the faith (which we have explicitly asked for), or I will know that it is not the Lord’s will for me to join. ** I spent HOURS praying about this last night. I am stepping out in faith and getting excited at the prospect of being received!**
 
davidarlette said:
For those friendly to our cause to join the Church, please pray for us. I am at the end of my rope, to be honest. I accept and agree with all the Chruch teaches (when I read the Catechism), but some of what is taught in the Church (by our sponsor as it turns out) is not Catechismal. I also know there are many Catholics out there who are accepting of others and believe in a God of Mercy rather than legalism, and I hope very soon to be able to be in full Communion with you.

I have left it in the Lord’s hands. Either thurday night will be about arranging reception into the faith (which we have explicitly asked for), or I will know that it is not the Lord’s will for me to join. ** I spent HOURS praying about this last night. I am stepping out in faith and getting excited at the prospect of being received!**
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Dear David,
I have taken time to read all of the “conversation posts” here. Some have not been as kind and encouraging as they could or should have been. Fortunately, I think you know that is human nature and have taken the high road to most. I think you have been misunderstood in many of your statements. As you said, your priest friend said you were ready and he knows you. Those on this board don’t really know you and can’t from just the little you have written about you, your studies, desires, and frustrations. It would take a much longer time to really know someone and make a judgement than just here on the board.
Trust Jesus, your heart and your priest friend.

The only thing that bothered me about your last post was that you said “or I will know that it is not the Lord’s will for me to join.” I hope you will add “at this time”. I hope it comes about very soon for you or both of you depending on what is decided. Our time is not God’s time so keep that in mind!

I think your current parish may be on the cautious side. I know you would have been welcomed in our parish so do seek out a new parish. Your sponsor can still go with you there unless they don’t think you are ready and it is approved by the priest, but if not, it should not deter you as they should know how they have helped you grow already and encourage you and not squash your enthusiasm or zeal for the Lord and desire for the sacraments.

As for me and my family, we will be praying for you and your wife at this time. I will offer my rosary for you today! Please, know that we are there for you and many others on this board.

May the Holy Spirit guide you and give you strength during this personal trial you are bearing!

In Christ,
SingtotheLord
with praise and thanksgiving!
 
christianley said:
Over 100,000 people in the United States figured out how to join the RCC this year. If they can do it, you can do it.

catholicexchange.com/en/node/60763
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He is working on it as best he can in Australia. Many things may be different there. His Parish certainly didn’t sound very encouraging if they wanted him (them) to wait.

I hope your post encouraged him all the more!

Peace,
SingtotheLord
 
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