RCC difficult to join

[theAuthor]

Oh and as for a patron saint, I am a big fan of St Augustine. I once was a “bad boy” and have repented lots, so I kind of relate. I think my wife may choose him too. We have a dictionary of Saints, but it’s a little dry. My namesake -David - would be another, both a man after God’s own heart and yet lead by his passions at times. Also a muso like me. I am guessing the King David of the Bible would be a Saint, right? Can you have more than one patron saint. Ooops I asked a question, I hope Pong will still let me be a Catholic now.

 

[Pong]

You seem to be taking offense to my calling you out for not going to Mass because of your own feelings. Guess what… Catholics have to go to Mass even when they don’t feel like it. Even if they are in a state of mortal sin and cannot recieve the Eucharist they are still obliged to go to Mass (and confession of course). And yes, I am fully aware that people have feelings. I am also aware that they are only that- feelings. Many times in life we are called to act in spite of our feelings.

Ooops I asked a question, I hope Pong will still let me be a Catholic now.

I never chastised you for asking a question. Please point me to the sentence(s) in my previous post where I have done so. It seems to me that you are taking so much offense at my post because I am not telling you what you want to hear.

 

[theAuthor]

You said I needed some humility.

I am pragmatic, real. If peole keep telling me that I am not a Catholic yet (and seem to quite enjoy rubbing my nose in it too; you haven’t been to our RCIA meetings and heard how condescending they can be), then I am not bound to attend Mass weekly. Obviously once I am accepted into the Church, that will change instantly. We attended Church weekly for many years, albeit a different one, and it can be done, especially since I no longer do shifts.

Of course we have to do things we don’t feel like says the man who is about to go to work (I"ll spare you the deatils of what lay ahead today, but it’s a toughy).

It is because of my fervent desire for the Eucharist, that being invited to the Lord’s table and then asked not to eat hurts so much. Jesus even gave bread to Judas, remember? If I committed a mortal sin after my First confession, then that would be different. I would have myself to blame and hate my sin all the more!

Pong, to be honest, as a human being, one of the main reasons I believe in God is because I have feelings. That is God offers me solace during the hard times (like right now), someone to praise and thank when I am overjoyed, a sense of purpose to life, that there is something more, something better after all the pain of this life. It allows me to see beauty and meaning in life. By contrast, to not believe leaves me with a deep sense of loneliness and emptiness (I used to debate atheists, so I tried to see their side), that I cannot stand for more than five minutes.

So really, you are criticsing me as a person (saying I am too emotional), despite the fact that in real life the Holy Spirit is working to change me for the better, just ask my wife. I ask you, as a Christian to love your neighbour. My talents are health and music, so I am a sensitive and feeling person. God made me that way.

 

[NewGuyInChurch]

You said I needed some humility.

I am pragmatic, real. If peole keep telling me that I am not a Catholic yet (and seem to quite enjoy rubbing my nose in it too; you haven’t been to our RCIA meetings and heard how condescending they can be), then I am not bound to attend Mass weekly. Obviously once I am accepted into the Church, that will change instantly. We attended Church weekly for many years, albeit a different one, and it can be done, especially since I no longer do shifts.

Of course we have to do things we don’t feel like says the man who is about to go to work (I"ll spare you the deatils of what lay ahead today, but it’s a toughy).

It is because of my fervent desire for the Eucharist, that being invited to the Lord’s table and then asked not to eat hurts so much. Jesus even gave bread to Judas, remember? If I committed a mortal sin after my First confession, then that would be different. I would have myself to blame and hate my sin all the more!

Pong, to be honest, as a human being, one of the main reasons I believe in God is because I have feelings. That is God offers me solace during the hard times (like right now), someone to praise and thank when I am overjoyed, a sense of purpose to life, that there is something more, something better after all the pain of this life. It allows me to see beauty and meaning in life. By contrast, to not believe leaves me with a deep sense of loneliness and emptiness (I used to debate atheists, so I tried to see their side), that I cannot stand for more than five minutes.

So really, you are criticsing me as a person (saying I am too emotional), despite the fact that in real life the Holy Spirit is working to change me for the better, just ask my wife. I ask you, as a Christian to love your neighbour. My talents are health and music, so I am a sensitive and feeling person. God made me that way.

Whether your are bound to attend or not is irrelevant. If you sincerely wish to become a confirmed member of Christ’s Church, why on earth would you not attend weekly? I attended every week for months before my confirmation, and I always will – I am so glad I did. Why would you not want to attend?? Instead of focusing on yourself during Communion, you should get on your knees and pray that Jesus will be with you on your journey to the day when you will be free to go up there and take part as well. Mass is all about God – not about us.

You have my full support in your journey

God bless,
Eric

 

[theAuthor]

I think I mentioned before that I have received the Eucharist before under special circumstances, and so I know what I am missing.

You make my point: I should be on my knees (correct) asking Jesus to be with me until He can be with me? Do you realise how nonsensical that is?

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, BTW. Jesus died for us. His sacrifice was for us. It is all about us. We are the reason for the Mass. Because Jesus loved us so much that he died for us while we were still sinners. That’s the sacrifice of Calvary and of the Mass in non-bloody form.

Although I fully agree that we worship God and that He made us for Himself and desires our love.

 

[NewGuyInChurch]

I think I mentioned before that I have received the Eucharist before under special circumstances, and so I know what I am missing.

You make my point: I should be on my knees (correct) asking Jesus to be with me until He can be with me? Do you realise how nonsensical that is?

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, BTW. Jesus died for us. His sacrifice was for us. It is all about us. We are the reason for the Mass. Because Jesus loved us so much that he died for us while we were still sinners. That’s the sacrifice of Calvary and of the Mass in non-bloody form.

Although I fully agree that we worship God and that He made us for Himself and desires our love.

Shelve your pride. And by the way, falling on your knees and worshipping while waiting for day when you will be able to take part in Communion normally, is not unreasonable or nonsensical. Stop thinking about yourself for a moment and start going to mass for God. Or are you somehow more worthy than everybody else as they get down on their knees? :ehh:

 

[kage_ar]

Have not read all the way through - have you been through the any of the Rites of RCIA (The Rite of Acceptance, etc.)?

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

We also strongly dislike being called converts. We are already believers. If we were changing from Islam or Judaism, fair enough, but is Catholicism a different religion altogether to the AOG?

All people are continually “converts”. We are called to be continually “converted” into more and more faith.

Don’t take the term “convert” as a pejorative. It’s not.

You’re just less (maybe!) converted than those who can take the eucharist.

Another thing we dislike is being called protestants, since we have never had any ill-feeling towards the RCC, and were not involved in the Reformation. We didn’t know anything about it really (but do now).

Once again, don’t be so sensitive. Do you understand what the Church is, and why you want to be a part of it, or are you willing to give that up because of a silly misunderstanding of a peripheral term?

So my other concern is this:
With my history, if I still have to jump through a million hoops to be received (despite my preist mentor saying I was ready 5 years ago), how are we expected to gain any new members for the RCC?

Uh,… what “million hoops”…?

1. Do RCIA (several months).
2. Do the “Easter Thing”.
3. Tah-dah…!!

…what’s so hard?

You want a drive-thru, perhaps…?

One more thing:
We are told to go to Mass, but cannot receive the Eucharist, despite believing in the Real Prescence, and that hurts. I also wish to make a good cofession and cannot do that either until just before being received into the Church. Even that has been put off until after Easter now because our whole group backed out!
I am told that as long as I am willing to make a good confession ASAP, then that counts. SO why do we confess to a preist at all? Why won’t they just hear my confession so I can have peace?

Your not a member of the body until you’re a member of the body, which requires you’ve been “initiated”.

If you do truly believe, then your confessions are fine and effective as befits your “status”.

If you do truly believe, then a blessing from the Priest is as good as it gets, as befits your “status”.

If you believe, you’ll submit to the “work”, and allow things to come in due time.

If you’re a “protestant”, then you won’t, and you won’t put up with the “work”, as “WORKS” are not of value to you, and you’ll go somewhere else.

In other words,… calm down and keep your eye on the goal, and it’s incomparable value, which is worth ANY amount of work to attain, which makes the paultry “trial” that you’re complaining about now seem utterly trivial.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jmcrae]

You said I needed some humility.

I am pragmatic, real. If peole keep telling me that I am not a Catholic yet (and seem to quite enjoy rubbing my nose in it too; you haven’t been to our RCIA meetings and heard how condescending they can be), then I am not bound to attend Mass weekly.

It seems childish to avoid going to Mass simply because someone was rude to you at your RCIA group.

Obviously once I am accepted into the Church, that will change instantly.

Why? What material difference is there between the strong recommendation of a member of RCIA to attend Mass on a regular basis, at least on the weeks that he has an RCIA meeting to attend, and the obligation of a Catholic to attend Mass at least on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation?

 

[theAuthor]

Newguyinchurch,

Shelve my pride? What like on display (just joking)? Actually, St Augustine teaches (among others) that on the road to sanctification, pride is the last sin to go, so you’re asking a bit much aren’t you?

jmcrae and keikiolu
In our RCIA group we have come up against some very old fashioned ideas and attitudes and especialy legalism. I’m talking the old Cath vs Prot bigotry, the One True Church so all other churches are entirely false (not catechismal, BTW). I am returning legalism for legalism. If it wasn’t for my strong grounding years ago, our RCIA and some posters on this board would have been plenty to put me off joining. Maybe our particular RCIA hasn’t been as good an experience as others have had. There seems to be an expectation to be devoid of all emotion on this board.

Now as for “convert” it is an emotive word for us because we come from a Prot background and it means converting from one religion to another to us (eg from Islam to Christianity). I will try calling my wife’s sponsor a convert tonight (defined as one growing in grace as we all are) and see how we go. When she says it it comes across as superior and prejorative. I have heard people say “God Bless you” like a swear word, too. It’s all in the delivery. If you are in Brisbane, PM me and come over for group tonight!

Once we are accepted, we will be able to receive the Eucharist. That’s the difference. That’s a big reason to go to Mass. As my wife so bluntly says, that’s the “Payoff for fighting to get the kids ready, etc” Then it won’t be so silly to prepare for the Eucharist and not receive.

To be a little vulgar, the church is against the withdrawal method. Why? Because it is not fully giving yourself to the other, and as a priest friend said, would be very frustrating. Yet with the sacrament of the Eucharist we are expected to do just that week after week? Say all the prayers, be in a state ready to receive and oh hang on, gotta stop now.

Sorry, no I am wrong there. To be in a state ready to receive, we would need to make a good confession first too for our previous mortal sins frist, but this too is another strong desire and something I eagerly anticipate too.

 

[jmcrae]

Once we are accepted, we will be able to receive the Eucharist. That’s the difference. That’s a big reason to go to Mass. As my wife so bluntly says, that’s the “Payoff for fighting to get the kids ready, etc” Then it won’t be so silly to prepare for the Eucharist and not receive.

Okay, here’s where the point is being missed.

When we go to Mass, our main purpose in going is not so much to receive the Eucharist (although everyone who can certainly should because obviously for those in the state of grace, there are many graces to be gained from that as well), but rather, to be present when Jesus Christ comes down from Heaven on to the Altar. Whether or not you are receiving on that particular day, the privilege of being at Mass is that you are present, and that you witness that miracle.

Whether or not you are actually receiving, the moment of Transubstantiation is a perfect time to pray for anything that you want. Many RCIA members choose that moment to make an Act of Spiritual Holy Communion at that moment.

Did you know that at one time, even though Sunday Mass was always required, most people only received the Eucharist once a year? At the majority of Masses, only the priest would receive the Eucharist. The people were privileged to be present as Jesus Christ came on to the Altar, but they were not normally expected to receive. Indeed, even in the early part of this century, we hear stories of people being thrilled to be permitted by their Confessors to receive once a month, even with weekly Confession.

To be a little vulgar, the church is against the withdrawal method. Why? Because it is not fully giving yourself to the other, and as a priest friend said, would be very frustrating. Yet with the sacrament of the Eucharist we are expected to do just that week after week? Say all the prayers, be in a state ready to receive and oh hang on, gotta stop now.

No, no, no - Christ comes to the Altar for everyone who is present at the Mass. Not only for those who also are receiving.

There are many graces from receiving the Eucharist, but these can only come to those who are in good standing with the Church as full members, and who are properly disposed at the time to receive.

Sorry, no I am wrong there. To be in a state ready to receive, we would need to make a good confession first too for our previous mortal sins frist, but this too is another strong desire and something I eagerly anticipate too.

I was nervous as a cat for my First Confession, but it was a wonderful experience to think back on, later.

 

[Bernadette64]

David,
In my humble opinion, I recommend seeing your situation as a definite cross, if you don’t already. Since Christ asked that we pick up our crosses and follow Him, do that and offer this time of your life up in union with Christ on the Cross.

God bless you,
Bernadette

 

[theAuthor]

jmcrae,

That was an awesome post. It explained in an explicit way what our RCIA instructors have been able to only hint at, and is certainly a much better reason to be at Mass than we were previously given. It’s funny, I think my wife’s sponsor was trying to tell us what you just did, but couldn’t quite phrase it as well as you did. She said about being present at Calvary which we didn’t quite “get.” She has a huge vocab. so I expected her to be able to phrase things better than she has, but you did a great job there.

I would like to explain that it was always said to me that the Eucharist was the summit of the Mass. That we receive the Lord in two ways at Mass:
1.Table of the Word- good, but it’s on TV anyway and we read the Bible just about daily.
2. At the Table of the Eucharist- to which we were invited to be at but not eat,

It certainly makes me feel less sorry for myself when you talk of people previously being able to receive Him once a year only!

You’ve put me in a dilly of a pickle though. If the point of Mass is to be in the presence of the Lord (when the Bell rings, in that instant of transubstantiation), then how is that better than experiencing the prescence of the Holy Spirit at a prayer meeting at a penticostal Church? The Holy Spirit is one of the God-head, too. What’s more we may be in those last days “when I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh”, so there is no waiting period, You just turn up, raise your heart and hands to the Lord in thanksgiving and praise, and he draws near to you. You might meditate on one of His properties while you are praising Him, like His goodness, or mercy, or power. It is another experience of God which in His soveriegn wisdom he has chosen to give. Another Grace freely given. Oh and BTW, there are charismatic Catholic groups that do this too, so it’s not an either/or proposition.

Bernadette, what I am undergoing at the moment is an attack from the enemy. My life is a constant cross normally. I am one of those who look forward being resurrected as a second chance where life is better. This last couple of weeks, since we are allowed to be received, my life has been hell. I have been plagued by doubts about Jesus even being real, thoughts of suicide, that maybe there is nothing after this life, maybe Augustine was wrong when he said suicide was a one way trip to hell. It’s been horrible. The cross is normal for me, this is worse. They say when you try to move towards God, the enemy will attack you pretty badly. I know I could stop it instantly by siining lots, but I am tenacious.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae,

That was an awesome post. It explained in an explicit way what our RCIA instructors have been able to only hint at, and is certainly a much better reason to be at Mass than we were previously given. It’s funny, I think my wife’s sponsor was trying to tell us what you just did, but couldn’t quite phrase it as well as you did. She said about being present at Calvary which we didn’t quite “get.” She has a huge vocab. so I expected her to be able to phrase things better than she has, but you did a great job there.

Glad I could help.

You’ve put me in a dilly of a pickle though. If the point of Mass is to be in the presence of the Lord (when the Bell rings, in that instant of transubstantiation), then how is that better than experiencing the prescence of the Holy Spirit at a prayer meeting at a penticostal Church?

Because, just like the lady said, this is Calvary. This is you being taken back on a trip through time to that moment on the Cross when your sins were forgiven, once and for all. Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, intact and entire, all for you.

The Holy Spirit is one of the God-head, too. What’s more we may be in those last days “when I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh”, so there is no waiting period, You just turn up, raise your heart and hands to the Lord in thanksgiving and praise, and he draws near to you. You might meditate on one of His properties while you are praising Him, like His goodness, or mercy, or power. It is another experience of God which in His soveriegn wisdom he has chosen to give. Another Grace freely given. Oh and BTW, there are charismatic Catholic groups that do this too, so it’s not an either/or proposition.

I like Charismatic meetings, too - I don’t get to them as often as I’d like, though. The great thing about the Catholic Church is that, once you’re in, you’re all the way in - other people may well be God’s children, too, but we’re the ones with all the coolest toys.

 

[theAuthor]

lol

Yes, I have to agree with you there!

 

[Asa_Ben_Judah]

“The Church is a community. It is more than ideas. It is relationship. An anti-Catholic is not a Catholic. These two terms are contradictory.”

I have grown to love the RCC - much to the concern of my beloved wife - and although I am not able to participate as an official member of the church at the present time I like to think that I can share in its community through my faith in Jesus Christ.

I regularly study Holy Scripture using the book

The International Bible Commentary; A Catholic and Ecumenical Commentary for the 21st Century. Edited by William R. Farmer

Publisher: Liturgical Press (August 1998)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0814624545
ISBN-13: 978-0814624548

It is awesome!

So is Pope Bendict XVI

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

We are told to go to Mass, but cannot receive the Eucharist, despite believing in the Real Prescence, and that hurts. I also wish to make a good cofession and cannot do that either until just before being received into the Church. Even that has been put off until after Easter now because our whole group backed out!

I am told that as long as I am willing to make a good confession ASAP, then that counts. SO why do we confess to a preist at all? Why won’t they just hear my confession so I can have peace?

Hi, I cannot receive the Eucharist either till I go and make a confession. I believe in the Real Presence and do not receive because I respect the Sacrament and don’t want another mortal sin till I go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. But that’s just me.

Would you rather that the Church be as easy to join as the AoG Church, or would you rather that converts (what else are we supposed to call those coming to the Faith?) be schooled in the Catechesis of the one True Church? If you don’t believe the Catholic Church is the One True Church, I don’t think you are ready to become Catholic yet. Your questions about why we need to confess to a priest at all show that RCIA might be a good thing for you (this isn’t a knock against you, but RCIA exists just for this purpose and as a forum to ask the questions you just posed to us in a community-centered manner).

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I see your point in terms of length of time. If it takes so long to learn (and this is anger talking now, sorry), maybe it is more complicated than Jesus intended it to be. Traditionally, Catholicism has been transmitted intergenerationally by large families such as in Ireland, and so one is brought up in the faith as you were.

I notice too that you capitalised the word ONE. That kind of elitist attitude repels potential converts. What’s more it ignores the fact that all trinitarian baptised are your brethren in Christ (straight from the CCC). It is a matter of fact that the church is one, but also that all others are therefore ordered in relation to it. So like it or not, the Calvinist down the road who is anti-Catholic is Catholic so far as he believes what the Church teaches. He will not believe in some doctrines/dogmas and so lacks the fullness of Truth, but his church is not* false*, for it has some truth (say the Nicene creed), but lacks the fullness and beauty of the Lord’s real prescence in the Eucharist.

David,

RCIA has actually made it easier to join the Church than in times past. Think about when historically the bishops were disperse from their diocese, sometimes even living outside of it. Who is there then to do the Confirmation of the Faithful?

Many times people remained catechumens till they were very old in life - attending church but not receiving the Sacraments.

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

jmcrae and keikiolu
In our RCIA group we have come up against some very old fashioned ideas and attitudes and especialy legalism. I’m talking the old Cath vs Prot bigotry, the One True Church so all other churches are entirely false (not catechismal, BTW). I am returning legalism for legalism.

Returning “sin” for “sin”…? You KNOW your sin (legalism) is sin. You only assume that your “enemy’s” sin is really sin.

Excellent…!

If you DON’T believe that the Church (Catholic) IS the one true Church, and don’t understand that the Church doesn’t in fact claim that “all other organizations are ENTIRELY false”, then you’re supposed “education” in the faith is sorely lacking.

(( Yeah,… I’m a little crass today, obviously. I’m just returning “annoyed” for “annoyed”, which I just “condemned” above,… so there’s proof that I’m a goof too,… just like yourself, so we’re in this boat together, eh buckeroo? Let’s be friends…! ))

If it wasn’t for my strong grounding years ago, our RCIA and some posters on this board would have been plenty to put me off joining. Maybe our particular RCIA hasn’t been as good an experience as others have had. There seems to be an expectation to be devoid of all emotion on this board.

If by “emotion” you mean, “agreeing with protestant error”, then you have a good point, and a bad premise.

Now as for “convert” it is an emotive word for us because we come from a Prot background and it means converting from one religion to another to us (eg from Islam to Christianity). I will try calling my wife’s sponsor a convert tonight (defined as one growing in grace as we all are) and see how we go. When she says it it comes across as superior and prejorative.

You’re not PROTESTANT anymore,… right?

So why hold onto those no longer applicable assumptions?

I suggest you DO call your sponsor a “convert”, and then explain to them that by that you mean that they are a fellow Christian on the path of the Church toward “ever greater conversion” to God.

See what happens!

I have heard people say “God Bless you” like a swear word, too. It’s all in the delivery. If you are in Brisbane, PM me and come over for group tonight!

Once we are accepted, we will be able to receive the Eucharist. That’s the difference. That’s a big reason to go to Mass. As my wife so bluntly says, that’s the “Payoff for fighting to get the kids ready, etc” Then it won’t be so silly to prepare for the Eucharist and not receive.

Ugh,… The “payoff” is to be in the presence of THE PRESENCE. How can you expect to get what you’re not due, as established by the authority that you “profess”…!?

Dude,… time to check the location of your head, my friend.

To be a little vulgar, the church is against the withdrawal method. Why? Because it is not fully giving yourself to the other, and as a priest friend said, would be very frustrating. Yet with the sacrament of the Eucharist we are expected to do just that week after week? Say all the prayers, be in a state ready to receive and oh hang on, gotta stop now.

Are you “married” to the Church yet…?

No.

Why would you expect the Church to be unchaste with you?

You’re just dating, my friend,… enjoy that very short and (potentially) very exciting period of discovery and enticement.

Sorry, no I am wrong there. To be in a state ready to receive, we would need to make a good confession first too for our previous mortal sins frist, but this too is another strong desire and something I eagerly anticipate too.

Everything in it’s order and time, as you know.

Reign in your Aussie impatience, dude…!!

Best to 'ya, and enjoy your time in journey. It’s part of the “deal”, and there for a reason.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I have a new Inquirer this week who brought tears of joy to my eyes when she told me that although she looks forward to the day that she can receive, her favourite thing right now is simply to bask in His Presence in the Tabernacle, by coming to Mass every day, and kneeling in prayer in front of it afterwards for as long as she can, before she has to go to work. :heaven:

You know, almost two years before I was able to bring myself to return to the Catholic Church, watching the Mass and Catholic programming on EWTN nourished my soul and gave me courage.

My only impediment was my (literally) damned pride that kept me from changing my ways and making a good confession. Not RCIA, not jumping through hoops… I could not drag myself - or would not drag myself - to make a good confession and revert. But during this dark time, much light was to be had watching Mass on TV. When JP2 died, I cried for a day and a half and got up in the wee hours to watch the funeral live. I knew it was time to come home.

It took me years.

Honestly, conversion is ongoing. It is STILL taking me years. No rest till eternal rest, I am STILL trying to become the Catholic God wants me to be. Reversion or reception isn’t the end of the journey - it is only just the begining.

My heart goes out to those with greater courage and conviction than this coward had for years who cannot recieve right now on their terms. Barring that, there is still much growth to be had in participating - even without communion - in the life of the Church through her Mass.

Don’t despair.