RCC interprets 2 Cor 5 17:20 incorrectly

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onetimeposter

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When I saw the RCC justify the ministry of reconciliation by using 2 Cor 5 17:20, it was instrumental in leading me away from the Church. It nearly knocked me off my chair when I read within the Catechism what the Church claims this passage instructs.

'And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,
namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

I was shocked to discover that the mighty RCC actually had this in their catechism as evidence that the ministry of reconciliation as we know it today, was given to them by Christ Jesus.

This passage is only talking about the spreading of the gospels and has absolutely nothing to do with reconciliation. Please read carefully my bolded parts, please notice that this is about the apostles spreading the **MESSAGE **of reconciliation…which is God has RECONCILED the world to himself through Christ. It finishes off with a plea, be RECONCILED to God.

The ministry of reconciliation, clearly, clearly even to a layman, is about spreading the good news and is not about auricular confession to an ordained priest.

When I saw the RCC prop this scripture up as justification…I couldn’t believe it…the problem is, as Catholics, you aren’t allowed to interpret scripture, even when it clearly states the opposite of what the Church teaches.

How can anyone (let alone an institution that claims a special authority given to them by Christ himself) read that and honestly believe it is a reference to a ministry of going out, hearing confessions, assigning penance and proclaiming absolution?

…and some Catholics accuse protestants of forcing their meaning into scripture.
 
You’ve said I am dead wrong, but then you offered no explanation as to how the Church could possibly interpret the scripture in the way in which they have.

:confused:
 
Christ [has] given us the ministry of reconciliation …

What do you think “the ministry of reconciliation” means?

You’ve interpreted it as being the same as “the ministry of preaching”. But it’s obviously a different term and a different concept.
 
onetimeposter said:
When I saw the RCC justify the ministry of reconciliation by using 2 Cor 5 17:20, it was instrumental in leading me away from the Church.
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Which Church document were you reading that detailed the use of this verse? Perhaps we can read it in context and go through it together. I think that would help.
 
Church_Militant said:
You’re dead wrong on this one. Not surprising that you have left the Catholic faith, you apparently don’t know it well enough to practice it to begin with, which makes gullible enough to be deceived by well meaning people with Bibles. Have a look at My Testimony.
Then you might want to reconsider your beliefs after reading the following articles on my blog. “I Find No Sacraments In the Bible” he said.

Catholic Confession
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Hey, I read your testimony, it was powerful man. Also, I enrolled in that Catholic Home study thing. Hopefully it will deepen and enrich my faith like it did yours. God Bless.
 
reggieM said:
Christ [has] given us the ministry of reconciliation …

What do you think “the ministry of reconciliation” means?

You’ve interpreted it as being the same as “the ministry of preaching”. But it’s obviously a different term and a different concept.
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Sir, four words…the ministry of reconciliation…clearly hold a different meaning than you want to believe.

You cannot pick 4 words out of a passage and hold it up and say…there ya go, it must mean this, look at the words.

Please, the scripture as a whole…not just 4 words…those words take on a different meaning within the passage…a very clear meaning I might add…the message of reconciliation…be reconciled to God!
 
MarcoPolo said:
Which Church document were you reading that detailed the use of this verse? Perhaps we can read it in context and go through it together. I think that would help.
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Only God forgives sin

1441 Only God forgives sins.[39] Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: “Your sins are forgiven.”[40] Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.[41]

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the “ministry of reconciliation.”[42] The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: “Be reconciled to God.”[43]

The Church makes this claim of authority through 2 Cor 5:18, but this passage has nothing to do with the exercise of the power of absolution, but with the spreading of the Gospel…read 2 Cor 5: 18 carefully.

Do you notice in the CCC that they leave out the word MESSAGE from the scripture. Yikes, as that is a very important word in the text.

Please don’t just rip out 4 words and claim, ’ yep, it says it right there’…but those 4 words in context of what is actually being said in the entire passage.

The footnote 42 is # 2 Cor 5:18.
 
Church_Militant said:
Yes I have. Read the Catholic Confession article. All of that is relevant to your post, but I’m not wasting forum bandwidth and time in c&p something that I’ve already dealt with. Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?

That is a great explanation.
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I know why RC’s confess to a priest, I know inside and out why they do, I’ve read the entire newadvent.com thread on reconciliation numerous times…I have read a multitude of resources on Catholic confession, I’ve gone to confession a multitude of times in my life.

If you will not directly defend your Church’s interpretation of the scripture in question, then please, you have no business posting in an apologetics thread that asks a specific and direct question.
 
“We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Exactly. Confession involves a priest, who absolves sins in the name of Jesus. This makes sense, from a RCC view.
 
als10062008 said:
“We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Exactly. Confession involves a priest, who absolves sins in the name of Jesus. This makes sense, from a RCC view.
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Makes sense to a RCC point of view…I agree. The RCC is forcing their interpretation as being infallible…but their interpretation ignores the plain message of the passage.

The RCC view is out of context…it is clearly about the MESSAGE of reconciliation…the opening sentence clearly states that God has reconciled the world through Jesus Christ…

Be reconciled to God!..through Jesus! The Ministry of reconciliation is the MESSAGE of reconciliation that is telling everyone that God has reconciled the world through christ…be reconciled to God ( Through Christ, as he was sent to reconcile the world)

Nothing has yet been said to support the RCC’s incorrect interpretation of the scripture.

This scripture seems only to have been molded by the RCC to support the institution of forgiveness only by confessing to one of their ordained priests.
 
onetimeposter said:
The ministry of reconciliation, clearly, clearly even to a layman, is about spreading the good news and is not about auricular confession to an ordained priest.
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Even to a layman?

Earlier you assert that “this is about the apostles spreading the **MESSAGE **of reconciliation. . .” You are already admitting that this passage includes the distinction of apostle and laity.

This distinction is made even clearer by the we-you relationship: “*We *implore you . . .” And this imploring by the apostles is done “on behalf of Christ”.

This distinction between apostle and laity is apparent in the beginning of the very next chapter: “As God’s fellow workers *we *urge *you . . .” *The role of being “God’s fellow workers” further accentuates the uniqueness of the apostles’ “we” in relation to the “you” of the lay Corinthian recipients.

The apostles are “apostles” precisely because it is *Christ *who sent them – it is *Christ *who authorized *them *to be his “ambassadors” with such an authority that Paul can claim that the exercise of this ambassadorship is “as if *God *were appealing through” them.

Therefore, it is safe to conclude, as you have previously asserted, that “this is about the **apostles **. . .” (emphasis mine), for *God *is the authority who gave *them *the “ministry of reconciliation” and entrusted to *them *the “message of reconciliation”.

It cannot be overemphasized enough that this “message of reconciliation” is described as being entrusted not to just anyone but to them: the apostles.

This *apostolic *ministry of being entrusted with the “message of reconcilation” does not conflict with the Catholic position. In fact, reconciliation in the Catholic Church is grounded on the appeal by the successors in this ministry for *Christians *(recall that Paul was appealing to Corinthian Christians) to be “reconciled to God”. Without this apostolic appeal, the Sacrament of Reconciliation would be unintelligible.

When the apostolic ministry of reconciliation, as described by Paul, is examined in conjunction with Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18, and especially John 20:21-23 the foundations for the Sacrament of Reconciliation come into clearer view:

God, who forgives sins, sends Jesus, his Son, who has “authority on earth to forgive sins” and *personally *(not generically, to be figured out on one’s own) declares to a sinner, “Your sins are forgiven”. Jesus in turn sends his apostles and gives them this authority, since they act as his ambassadors, being “living icons” of Christ, so to speak.

The Catholic Church stands in continuity with this apostolic sending. And it is within the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and especially the prayer of absolution, that the continuity with what Paul wrote about the “ministry of reconciliation” given to the *apostles *and the “message of reconciliation” entrusted to *them *comes alive here and now:
God, the Father of mercies,
through the death and resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins
in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit.

Amen.
​
 
onetimeposter said:
When I saw the RCC justify the ministry of reconciliation by using 2 Cor 5 17:20,
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Here is what the CCC has to say about that passage
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/620.htm

If you have a quote from 2 Cor 5 in mind from the Catechism other than this, please quote it.
onetime:
it was instrumental in leading me away from the Church. It nearly knocked me off my chair when I read within the Catechism what the Church claims this passage instructs.
Click to expand...
Here’s the search engine for the Catechism. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Please be more specific. What passage from the Catechism are you speaking of?
onetime:
'And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,
namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

I was shocked to discover that the mighty RCC actually had this in their catechism as evidence that the ministry of reconciliation as we know it today, was given to them by Christ Jesus.

This passage is only talking about the spreading of the gospels and has absolutely nothing to do with reconciliation. Please read carefully my bolded parts, please notice that this is about the apostles spreading the **MESSAGE **of reconciliation…which is God has RECONCILED the world to himself through Christ. It finishes off with a plea, be RECONCILED to God.

The ministry of reconciliation, clearly, clearly even to a layman, is about spreading the good news and is not about auricular confession to an ordained priest.

When I saw the RCC prop this scripture up as justification…I couldn’t believe it…the problem is, as Catholics, you aren’t allowed to interpret scripture, even when it clearly states the opposite of what the Church teaches.

How can anyone (let alone an institution that claims a special authority given to them by Christ himself) read that and honestly believe it is a reference to a ministry of going out, hearing confessions, assigning penance and proclaiming absolution?

…and some Catholics accuse protestants of forcing their meaning into scripture.
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here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church (29 passages) says about forgiving sins.
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=forgive&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

In general here is a quick reference to the subject

Forgiveness
asking for forgiveness in prayer, 1425, 2631, 2838-45
conversion and, 2608
is denied to the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, 1864
family as a school for granting, 1657, 2227
God’s forgiveness as a sign of His omnipotence, 277
God’s grace as the origin of, 2010
must be given to whoever trespasses against us, 2840, 2845
only God grants, 1441
power of, 981
sacraments as ways to receive, 987, 2839
See also [Penance and Reconciliation](Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church - Index P and Reconciliation)

forgiveness of sins
of all sins is possible, 982
Baptism and, 403, 977-80, 1226, 1263
Christ brings about, 987, 1741
Christ justifies men, 615, 1708
Christ, the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world,” 523, 536, 608
Christ, “satisfaction for our sins,” 615, 1708
the Church’s power to forgive sins, 981
different ways to obtain, 1434, 1437, 1452
as an effect of justification, 2018
effects of, 1443, 1473
Eucharist and, 1393, 1846
forms of penance and ways to obtain, 1434-39
God alone can forgive sins, 430-31, 1441
as God’s gift of love, 734
Holy Spirit and, 984
offering of Christ to the Father for our sins, 606-18
for our sake God made Christ to be sin, 602-03
priests as instruments to forgive sins, 1421, 1486, 1520
as reconciliation with the Church, 1443
and the sacrament of Penance, 1496
sacrifice of Christ for the remission of the sins of man, 536, 545, 610, 613
 
onetimeposter said:
Do you notice in the CCC that they leave out the word MESSAGE from the scripture. Yikes, as that is a very important word in the text.
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Ah, here is where I see the problem is. As the Catechism reads: *…the apostolic ministry is charged with the “ministry of reconciliation.” The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: “Be reconciled to God.”*The paragraph does not state that this is what the “sacrament” of Reconciliation per se is based on. It is leading into that, but first it is establishing that the apostles are charged to advance Christ’s work of reconciling man with God, after the Fall. After all, Jesus told them, “Whoever hears you, hears Me” (Lk 10:16) and thusly, Christ does make His appeal through His apostles. The apostles are indeed charged with this “message” to all the world: that the means to be reconciled to God is via Jesus Christ. After establishing this larger scope, then the Catechism leads specifically into the sacramental dimension…

Now, very clearly, the Catechism states that only God forgives sins. Very true. And in the sacrament of Reconciliation, it is Christ who forgives sins, through the priest. The apostles were given Christ’s same authority (Jn 20:21). In fact, they regularly did things that ONLY Jesus could do: They miraculously healed like only Jesus can do (Act 3:7), exorcised demons like only Jesus can do (Mk 6:13), raised the dead like only Jesus could do (Act 9:40), etc… So it is no surprise that they can forgive sins like Jesus. After all, all authority on heaven and earth had been given to Jesus (Mt 28:18), who sent the apostles in the same way (Jn 20:21). If you keep the Apostles’ power to exorcise, heal, raise the dead, etc… and lop off the power to forgive, then you fracture what Christ said and promised to His apostles (Jn 20:21-23).
 
onetimeposter said:
When I saw the RCC justify the ministry of reconciliation by using 2 Cor 5 17:20, it was instrumental in leading me away from the Church. It nearly knocked me off my chair when I read within the Catechism what the Church claims this passage instructs.

'And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,
namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

I was shocked to discover that the mighty RCC actually had this in their catechism as evidence that the ministry of reconciliation as we know it today, was given to them by Christ Jesus.

This passage is only talking about the spreading of the gospels and has absolutely nothing to do with reconciliation. Please read carefully my bolded parts, please notice that this is about the apostles spreading the **MESSAGE **of reconciliation…which is God has RECONCILED the world to himself through Christ. It finishes off with a plea, be RECONCILED to God.

The ministry of reconciliation, clearly, clearly even to a layman, is about spreading the good news and is not about auricular confession to an ordained priest.

When I saw the RCC prop this scripture up as justification…I couldn’t believe it…the problem is, as Catholics, you aren’t allowed to interpret scripture, even when it clearly states the opposite of what the Church teaches.

How can anyone (let alone an institution that claims a special authority given to them by Christ himself) read that and honestly believe it is a reference to a ministry of going out, hearing confessions, assigning penance and proclaiming absolution?

…and some Catholics accuse protestants of forcing their meaning into scripture.
Click to expand...
Which paragraph of the Catechism?
 
onetimeposter said:
Only God forgives sin

The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: “Be reconciled to God.”[43]

The Church makes this claim of authority through 2 Cor 5:18, but this passage has nothing to do with the exercise of the power of absolution, but with the spreading of the Gospel…read 2 Cor 5: 18 carefully.

Do you notice in the CCC that they leave out the word MESSAGE from the scripture. Yikes, as that is a very important word in the text.

Please don’t just rip out 4 words and claim, ’ yep, it says it right there’…but those 4 words in context of what is actually being said in the entire passage.

The footnote 42 is # 2 Cor 5:18.
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FIRST, the Catholic Church does not rip out 4 words, but sees this in the context of the whole scriptures.

SECOND, MESSAGE is not left out, but depends on your translation. Both the King James and Douay-Rheims use ‘word of reconciliation’.

THIRD, Remember this is under the heading; Only God Forgives Sin.
The ministry of reconciliation, clearly, clearly even to a layman, is about spreading the good news and is not about auricular confession to an ordained priest.
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And you make the mistake of either/or which we see so often. The good news is spread and we are told “Be reconciled to God”, so it is BOTH.

Kotton 👍
 
Vincent said:
Therefore, it is safe to conclude, as you have previously asserted, that “this is about the **apostles **. . .” (emphasis mine), for *God *is the authority who gave *them *the “ministry of reconciliation” and entrusted to *them *the “message of reconciliation”.

This *apostolic *ministry of being entrusted with the “message of reconcilation” does not conflict with the Catholic position. In fact, reconciliation in the Catholic Church is grounded on the appeal by the successors in this ministry for *Christians *(recall that Paul was appealing to Corinthian Christians) to be “reconciled to God”. Without this apostolic appeal, the Sacrament of Reconciliation would be unintelligible.
[/INDENT][/INDENT]
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This is not exclusively about the apostles.

And all this is from God, who has reconciled us ( everyone on earth) to himself through Christ and given us ( How can us mean everyone and then us only mean the apostles in the same sentence?) the ministry of reconciliation,
Code: 
namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to **us** ( again, Paul is writing a letter to the Corinthians, he is talking about Christians, and not about a special group of men...the **US **doesn't make sense if you believe he is talking about the apostles )  the message of reconciliation.
So we( He could be talking about himself and the apostles) are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us ( He could again be talking about himself and the apostels)). **We **implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

See here, the US does make sense that he is talking about himself and the apostles, as it is in context with we.

But earlier, the us in context, is about everyone, as God has reconciled us through Christ. If us in that paragraph means only the apostles and Paul…then God is only reconciling with Paul and the apostles and we know that that isn’t the truth. The us meaning everyone is exactly where the ministry of reconciliation is found.
**
So how can the Church claim that ministry of reconciliation is only about the ordained clergy? ( not mention, it is about the message of reconciliation, being reconciled to God through Jesus and not about confession to a priest)**

The end, WE IMPLORE you…be reconciled to God…how do you get reconciled to God? Paul mentioned it in the first sentence…who has reconciled us to himself through Christ.

What is the ministry of reconciliation…?

…entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

What is the message of reconciliation?

It is to spread the good news that God has reconciled the world through the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ.
 
The OP seems to think that this one tiny piece of scripture is the entire basis for the Church’s teaching because it is mentioned in the CCC.

I see the usage of that verse not as the foundation upon which to build the doctrine, but rather a bit of background explanation regarding the mission of the Church. The mission of the church is to carry Christ’s redeeming work (which reconciles mankind to the Father) forward in time. Preaching the Gospel and forgiving sins are non-mutually exclusive, necessary, and interdependent aspects of that mission. Both are easily supported in scripture.

And to the OP - Kindly refrain from childish remarks like “mighty RCC” and the accusation that Catholics are incapable of or forbidden to interpret scripture. We tend not to be so arrogant as to think that as individuals we have the only possible interpretation. You may also be interested to learn that it is very unlikely that the church has any kind of dogmatic teaching on what the verse in question definitively means.
 
quasimodo said:
The OP seems to think that this one tiny piece of scripture is the entire basis for the Church’s teaching because it is mentioned in the CCC.
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This is from the CCC…

**But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the “ministry of reconciliation.”[42] **

This is the foundation that entrusts the Church with what the Church calls the ministry of reconciliation.

If this scripture is incorrectly interpreted ( as I believe it clearly is) doesn’t the entire ministry fall apart like a house of cards?
 
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