RCC's view on Islam

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I saw this on another thread and was surprised. Can you help me understand how the RCC makes a statement of this magnitude in its catechism how it is reconciled against Scripture? Scriptures like John 14:16, John 3:16, 1 John 2: 21-25, and so many other verses.

"841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Please understand, I am not starting an argument. I am curious how the RCC’s justifies such a statement; besides what is in the statement itself. For instance, Jew’s deny Jesus as the Messiah. Why are they not included when they obviously recognize God as the Creator and God of Abraham?
 
First, the Catechism does address the Church’s relationship with the Jewish people in the immediate, two preceeding paragraphs:

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

The Catechism in this section is about what the Catholic Church is, and moves from there outward, to non-Catholic Christians, to Jews, to Muslims, to others.

What would be incorrect is to think the Catechism is saying that all roads are equal paths to God: it does NOT say this. And neither does it mean that Islam teachings are salvific: they are not.

It’s recognizing what common truths we do have with other faiths. It doesn’t mean other faiths have the fullness of truth, and it doesn’t teach that other faiths have truths that are sufficient. Islam does recognize the truth of monotheism. It recognizes that God is transcendant above all and is the creator of all. Islam is neither atheist, deist, or pantheist, but truly monotheist. In respect to what can naturally be known according to looking at nature (in contrast to divine revalation), the monotheistic faiths have much in common. Even within divine revelation, they also have some things in common, from recognizing God’s relationship to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and even Moses. Muslims even praise Jesus as among the greatest of those who’ve known God and who will come again (though we know this isn’t sufficient). They are a people descended from Abraham’s son, Ishmael. Now, we certainly have many differences and disagreements. That includes many profound differences in theology and ideas of salvation. But we do have some common ground with them, which the Catechism is recognizing. But it’s not calling it equal or a faith sufficient for salvation in itself. As noted, if you read the entire section, the Church is explaining its relationship with different groups in an ever broadening fashion.

It would help to read the entire section. Here is a little more (but not all)

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334​

The paragraphs after this explain the Church’s view of what it means for there to be no salvation outside the Church. Did you read only paragraph 841 or the whole section? Context… context… context…

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
 
I’m not crazy about the friendly language on Islam in the CCC…but this is all Vatican II which is about reaching out to others and not alienating them.

A good way to look at it is… “The plan of salvation” does not mean Muslims are saved.

Muslims are part of the “plan of salvation” just as Pharaoh (Exodus 9:12) was part of the “plan of salvation” for the Jews.

And we must believe in hell but we don’t have to believe that anyone in particular is there. God is the only one who knows people’s hearts. And he knows if they have rejected the gospel message or not. So let’s the leave the judging of particular souls to Father of Mercy. 🙂
 
I saw this on another thread and was surprised. Can you help me understand how the RCC makes a statement of this magnitude in its catechism how it is reconciled against Scripture? Scriptures like John 14:16, John 3:16, 1 John 2: 21-25, and so many other verses.

"841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Sure. The Catechism does not contradict those Scriptures because the Catechism does not deny that Jesus is necessary for salvation. That is what those Scriptures teach – we have to accept Jesus as the Christ in order to be saved. When the Catechism says that God’s “plan of salvation” includes Muslims, it’s not denying that. God does have a plan for Muslims to be saved – it’s the plan revealed in those Scriptures: accept Jesus as the Christ, and you will be saved. “For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13. Just because someone is Muslim right now doesn’t mean God has abandoned them – He has a plan for them and is reaching out to save them. They are included in His plan of salvation because He plans for them to be saved – by accepting the Gospel.

Also, it is important to point out that God has a way to save people who have never heard the gospel. Jesus talks about this in John 15:22-24 – “If I had not come among them, they would have no sin. … If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin.” See also Acts 10:34-35 and Romans 2:14-16. If someone has never heard of the Gospel, and of what Jesus did for us and our responsibility to accept Him and live by His teachings, God won’t hold them accountable for something they’ve never heard of – He will hold them accountable for the things they can know, like believing in His eternal power and divinity which can be understood from creation, and following the dictates of the natural law, which are written on the human heart. There is evidence in Scripture that if a person follows these principles, even if he has never heard the gospel or read the Bible, God will provide for such a person’s salvation. But that’s God’s business – our business is to spread the Gospel and save people the way God has shown us, by making disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of Jesus, and teaching them all that He has commanded us. And the Catechism is clear that this is one of our duties to our Muslim brethren.
Please understand, I am not starting an argument. I am curious how the RCC’s justifies such a statement; besides what is in the statement itself. For instance, Jew’s deny Jesus as the Messiah. Why are they not included when they obviously recognize God as the Creator and God of Abraham?
Jews are included, read a few paragraphs before the one you quoted:

CCC 839-840 – “The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, the first to hear the Word of God. The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. … And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.”

Notice that: even if you’re Jewish, you still can’t be saved without Jesus. If you haven’t heard the Gospel, and you live your life in accord with the natural law and honor God as the One Eternal Creator, that’s one thing, and God may provide some way for you to be saved, but it will somehow be through Jesus even if you’ve never heard the Gospel. And in any case, we’re supposed to do our best to make sure that everyone Does hear the Gospel, because it is by hearing and receiving the Gospel that God has entrusted to His Church the mission of converting the nations – including Jews and Muslims.

I hope that helps. Please let me know. God bless.
 
I saw this on another thread and was surprised. Can you help me understand how the RCC makes a statement of this magnitude in its catechism how it is reconciled against Scripture? Scriptures like John 14:16, John 3:16, 1 John 2: 21-25, and so many other verses.

"841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Please understand, I am not starting an argument. I am curious how the RCC’s justifies such a statement; besides what is in the statement itself. For instance, Jew’s deny Jesus as the Messiah. Why are they not included when they obviously recognize God as the Creator and God of Abraham?
Pretty much its just what it says. They believe in the same God as we do the God of Abraham. While they do not recognize Christ as God, as do the Jews, in no part means that we do not all believe in the One true God, the God of Abraham.

But that is as far as it goes. The Pope explains that while we pray to the same God, that is about as far as having much in common. While they acknowledge the One true God, they follow the teachings of Mohammad.
 
I have a huge problem with the concept that Muslims worship the same god. We can tell from everything they believe.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” Isaiah 55:8-9.
 
I have a huge problem with the concept that Muslims worship the same god. We can tell from everything they believe.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” Isaiah 55:8-9.
Are you saying that there exists another god that they worship? Or that they worship a god that doesn’t exist?
 
Are you saying that there exists another god that they worship? Or that they worship a god that doesn’t exist?
That they worship a god that does not exist. There is no more a real Allah than there is a real Neptune.
 
I have a huge problem with the concept that Muslims worship the same god. We can tell from everything they believe.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” Isaiah 55:8-9.
So your saying they worship a different God? Are you saying there is more than one God? Don’t forget, they too trace their roots back to Abraham, and feel they worship the God of Abraham. So what God do you feel they are worshipping?
 
That they worship a god that does not exist. There is no more a real Allah than there is a real Neptune.
Allah is just the term for god. If you go to some Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, you will hear the word Allah. Are you saying the God of Abraham does not exist?
 
That they worship a god that does not exist. There is no more a real Allah than there is a real Neptune.
Interesting. So when they pray, what is the response of the one true God who does in fact exist? Does this God “hear” them or relate or interact with them in any way?
 
Allah is just the term for god. If you go to some Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, you will hear the word Allah.
This I know. It is not the name, that is just a label. It is the whole set of beliefs that go with the name. For instance, God has set out a moral code for us to follow, what He expects of mankind. “Allah” has a different moral code, different expectations, which alone shows that “he” is a construction of man.
 
I saw this on another thread and was surprised. Can you help me understand how the RCC makes a statement of this magnitude in its catechism how it is reconciled against Scripture? Scriptures like John 14:16, John 3:16, 1 John 2: 21-25, and so many other verses.

"841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Please understand, I am not starting an argument. I am curious how the RCC’s justifies such a statement; besides what is in the statement itself. For instance, Jew’s deny Jesus as the Messiah. Why are they not included when they obviously recognize God as the Creator and God of Abraham?
Don’t forget John 3:18- “Those who do not believe in the son are condemned already”.
 
This I know. It is not the name, that is just a label. It is the whole set of beliefs that go with the name. For instance, God has set out a moral code for us to follow, what He expects of mankind. “Allah” has a different moral code, different expectations, which alone shows that “he” is a construction of man.
What if Mohammed just made up those rules, and they worship the true God without realizing what the true God teaches? Is that possible, in your opinion?

Muslims remind me of this Bible verse:

“I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not according to knowledge.” Romans 10:2.
 
Having at least in broad terms an understanding of what God requires is in my view intrinsic to believing in God
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21
 
So your saying they worship a different God? Are you saying there is more than one God? Don’t forget, they too trace their roots back to Abraham, and feel they worship the God of Abraham. So what God do you feel they are worshipping?
Let’s say you have a friend, Peter. You’ve known Peter since childhood. You know Peter to be kind and generous. He is obedient to his parents and a good student at school. He is a good athlete. He is a championship swimmer.

Another guy comes along, let’s call him Muhammad. Muhammad claims to know Peter too. But the Peter Muhammad describes is mean and cruel. He tortures animals. He hates his parents. He’s a poor student. And he doesn’t know how to swim.

Both people claim to know Peter. But the Peter they describe is completely different. Is the “Peter” you know the same as the “Peter” Muhammad knows? It could be the same person…maybe he has just shown you one side of his personality and has shown Muhammad another side. Maybe one of you misunderstood somewhere along the line. Who knows? So yes, you could say that your “Peter” is the same person as Muhammad’s “Peter.” You could also say you know different “Peters.”
 
Let’s say you have a friend, Peter. You’ve known Peter since childhood. You know Peter to be kind and generous. He is obedient to his parents and a good student at school. He is a good athlete. He is a championship swimmer.

Another guy comes along, let’s call him Muhammad. Muhammad claims to know Peter too. But the Peter Muhammad describes is mean and cruel. He tortures animals. He hates his parents. He’s a poor student. And he doesn’t know how to swim.

Both people claim to know Peter. But the Peter they describe is completely different. Is the “Peter” you know the same as the “Peter” Muhammad knows? It could be the same person…maybe he has just shown you one side of his personality and has shown Muhammad another side. Maybe one of you misunderstood somewhere along the line. Who knows? So yes, you could say that your “Peter” is the same person as Muhammad’s “Peter.” You could also say you know different “Peters.”
Ahh. You miss the point. They are not claiming to know a different Peter.

There is only one God. This we all agree on. So if there is only one God, then they must be worshipping the same God that we do, but with a completely different understanding of that one God. Remember, they claim to be worshipping that same God of Abraham that the Jews do. That is why we can say they worship the same God.

Tell me, do you believe we worship the same God as the Jews? Because the argument is the same. They have a different understanding than we do. So the God is the same, the understanding is different.

I once heard Dr. Anders give a fantastic explanation on Called to Communion.
 
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