RCC's view on Islam

[James248]

Good, thorough summary of the Church’s belief with respect to the salvation of non-Christians, if I say so myself.

For what it’s worth (maybe not much except for information), Judaism does believe your religion as well as that of Islam are sufficient unto themselves for salvation.

Salvation for those people of other religions POSSIBLE not guaranteed. And if a person who is of another religion and is invincibly ignorant, they are saved ONLY through CHRIST. As for those who AREN’T invincibly ignorant, they have no salvation.

 

[1neophyte]

Good, thorough summary of the Church’s belief with respect to the salvation of non-Christians, if I say so myself.

For what it’s worth (maybe not much except for information), Judaism does believe your religion as well as that of Islam are sufficient unto themselves for salvation.

Sorry for the noob-ish question, but what is the Jewish understanding of salvation? I realize there are many sects of Judaism, but I was under the impression that Jewish teaching is that there is no afterlife.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

No where did I state that. Please don’t misrepresent what I said. One cannot grasp the Entity of Allah, and one’s ability to grasp His wisdom and His predestination is also impaired, but one can grasp His attributes. If your position was valid then the Church Fathers would have never adopted philosophical language such as ousia and hypostases to begin with. There are countless verified reports of the many miracles performed by the Prophet (S), even after his death; but I will assume you will not accept his prophethood based on this. And this is why we judge by the content of doctrine, and so your apparent rejection of reason is invalid.

It’s a mystery of faith…sort of like transubstantiation…

The Church Fathers do their best to put into words the mysteries of God…but those words will never do it justice, nor can we ever fully understand it in this life.

If I could explain the Trinity to you, then I would be God and you could worship me.

 

[meltzerboy]

Sorry for the noob-ish question, but what is the Jewish understanding of salvation? I realize there are many sects of Judaism, but I was under the impression that Jewish teaching is that there is no afterlife.

Most Jewish teaching today follows the Pharisaic tradition and therefore does speak about an afterlife. The details of the World to Come, however, are largely unknown since they are not specified in the Torah. For many Jews, salvation is a concept that applies more to the Jewish people as a collective entity in the present world than to individual salvation by means of a heavenly reward. As in most things, however, Jews do not agree with one another on such ideas, particularly when the issue involved is not doctrinal. Nonetheless, this earthly life is the focus of Judaism, and with regard to the present life and our obligations toward G-d, our fellow man, animals, and the planet, details abound in the Law.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

No where did I state that. Please don’t misrepresent what I said. One cannot grasp the Entity of Allah, and one’s ability to grasp His wisdom and His predestination is also impaired, but one can grasp His attributes. If your position was valid then the Church Fathers would have never adopted philosophical language such as ousia and hypostases to begin with.

One of the things I like best in Islam is the concept of “bi la kayfa…” which I’m sure you’re familiar with. In other words, “We believe something to be true but without knowing how.” This is the Trinity. We can only know it from hints in Scripture, but ultimately we cannot understand it (and certainly not enough to “prove” it with logic or philosophy). It is a mystery.

 

[drblank1]

First, the Catechism does address the Church’s relationship with the Jewish people in the immediate, two preceeding paragraphs:

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

The Catechism in this section is about what the Catholic Church is, and moves from there outward, to non-Catholic Christians, to Jews, to Muslims, to others.

What would be incorrect is to think the Catechism is saying that all roads are equal paths to God: it does NOT say this. And neither does it mean that Islam teachings are salvific: they are not.

It’s recognizing what common truths we do have with other faiths. It doesn’t mean other faiths have the fullness of truth, and it doesn’t teach that other faiths have truths that are sufficient. Islam does recognize the truth of monotheism. It recognizes that God is transcendant above all and is the creator of all. Islam is neither atheist, deist, or pantheist, but truly monotheist. In respect to what can naturally be known according to looking at nature (in contrast to divine revalation), the monotheistic faiths have much in common. Even within divine revelation, they also have some things in common, from recognizing God’s relationship to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and even Moses. Muslims even praise Jesus as among the greatest of those who’ve known God and who will come again (though we know this isn’t sufficient). They are a people descended from Abraham’s son, Ishmael. Now, we certainly have many differences and disagreements. That includes many profound differences in theology and ideas of salvation. But we do have some common ground with them, which the Catechism is recognizing. But it’s not calling it equal or a faith sufficient for salvation in itself. As noted, if you read the entire section, the Church is explaining its relationship with different groups in an ever broadening fashion.

It would help to read the entire section. Here is a little more (but not all)

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334​

The paragraphs after this explain the Church’s view of what it means for there to be no salvation outside the Church. Did you read only paragraph 841 or the whole section? Context… context… context…

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Trust me, I believe is context. I keep preaching that to other posters.

I was just asking about what another poster had posted in another thread. So just to summarize, the CCC is only saying they (Muslims and Jews) have a common thread of understand who God is, but still still cannot receive salvation until they come to Jesus as Savior?

 

[drblank1]

Hi drblank1. The distinction is that the Jews are acknowledged by Christianity to have actually been part of God’s plan of salvation. As a people they do not simply *profess *to hold the faith of Abraham. Theirs IS the faith of Abraham, a faith that comes from true divine revelation. They are, as JPII called them, our elder brothers in the faith. Muslims share in the plan of salvation to the extent they profess to be part of that lineage and seek to adore the same One God of both Judaism and Christianity, although Christianity does not accept the inspiration of the Quran. That is the distinction that is being parsed out carefully in the CCC.

I hope I helped. Feel free to follow up if I didn’t address your question.

Peace,
Robert

That is helpful. Thanks Robert.

 

[Wesrock]

Trust me, I believe is context. I keep preaching that to other posters.

I was just asking about what another poster had posted in another thread. So just to summarize, the CCC is only saying they (Muslims and Jews) have a common thread of understand who God is, but still still cannot receive salvation until they come to Jesus as Savior?

The Church’s teaching on invincible ignorance applies to all human kind, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc… but in general, yes.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”​

As to the extent of that, well… there’s a variety of opinion among Catholics. But not all roads are equal, nor is a muslim faith (or other) and such in itself a saving faith. The paragraph isn’t saying those who practice Islam are, by practicing Islam, on the road to salvation. The context of that section is speaking of the common ground between Muslims and Catholics (because there is some), and takes an increasingly broadening path. It starts with speaking about what the Church is, how Christians in divided communities fit in and their relationship to the Church, then Jews, then Muslims, then other…

 

[Wesrock]

That is helpful. Thanks Robert.

That was a great and concise post by Robert.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

The Church’s teaching on invincible ignorance applies to all human kind, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc… but in general, yes.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”​

As to the extent of that, well… there’s a variety of opinion among Catholics. But not all roads are equal, nor is a muslim faith (or other) and such in itself a saving faith. The paragraph isn’t saying those who practice Islam are, by practicing Islam, on the road to salvation. The context of that section is speaking of the common ground between Muslims and Catholics (because there is some), and takes an increasingly broadening path. It starts with speaking about what the Church is, how Christians in divided communities fit in and their relationship to the Church, then Jews, then Muslims, then other…

I think Wesrock makes a good point here. The Catholic Church does not teach indifferentism. This is not saying that "if you are a good Muslim, or Jew, or Hindu, you will be saved. Rather, it is one’s internal response to the grace of God working in your life, whether you be Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Trust me, I believe is context. I keep preaching that to other posters.

I was just asking about what another poster had posted in another thread. So just to summarize, the CCC is only saying they (Muslims and Jews) have a common thread of understand who God is, but still still cannot receive salvation until they come to Jesus as Savior?

Hello again drblank1. About the phrase “until they come to Jesus as Savior” I think you may find that where non-Christians are concerned Catholic doctrine is more forgiving than some Protestant interpretations. (I don’t know where you are coming from.) I know there are some Protestant groups who believe that unless someone deliberately makes an express declaration that they are accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior they are destined for Hell.

While we agree that such an act is a beautiful thing, and that all Christians (Catholic and otherwise) should have a deep and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, we do not say that where someone is prevented from making such a declaration because of their “invincible ignorance” that they are thereby damned. Instead, we hold out hope that Jesus will save those who are prevented by good faith lack of understanding from doing so. Instead, we believe that it is possible for Jesus (who is not bound by the sacraments) to accept their response to the grace that they have received, even if they do not know explicitly that their relationship with the Divine is indeed with Jesus Christ. I’m paraphrasing the doctrine for the sake of brevity. But this is a distinction that I feel is pertinent to the conversation.

Peace,
Robert

 

[meltzerboy]

Hello again drblank1. About the phrase “until they come to Jesus as Savior” I think you may find that where non-Christians are concerned Catholic doctrine is more forgiving than some Protestant interpretations. (I don’t know where you are coming from.) I know there are some Protestant groups who believe that unless someone deliberately makes an express declaration that they are accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior they are destined for Hell.

While we agree that such an act is a beautiful thing, and that all Christians (Catholic and otherwise) should have a deep and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, we do not say that where someone is prevented from making such a declaration because of their “invincible ignorance” that they are thereby damned. Instead, we hold out hope that Jesus will save those who are prevented by good faith lack of understanding from doing so. Instead, we believe that it is possible for Jesus (who is not bound by the sacraments) to accept their response to the grace that they have received, even if they do not know explicitly that their relationship with the Divine is indeed with Jesus Christ. I’m paraphrasing the doctrine for the sake of brevity. But this is a distinction that I feel is pertinent to the conversation.

Peace,
Robert

I understand that distinction does exist. We Jews accept you both as you are within your religions, whether Catholic or Protestant (or Orthodox), and believe that G-d does too with regard to the World to Come.

 

[drblank1]

Hello again drblank1. About the phrase “until they come to Jesus as Savior” I think you may find that where non-Christians are concerned Catholic doctrine is more forgiving than some Protestant interpretations. (I don’t know where you are coming from.) I know there are some Protestant groups who believe that unless someone deliberately makes an express declaration that they are accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior they are destined for Hell.

While we agree that such an act is a beautiful thing, and that all Christians (Catholic and otherwise) should have a deep and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, we do not say that where someone is prevented from making such a declaration because of their “invincible ignorance” that they are thereby damned. Instead, we hold out hope that Jesus will save those who are prevented by good faith lack of understanding from doing so. Instead, we believe that it is possible for Jesus (who is not bound by the sacraments) to accept their response to the grace that they have received, even if they do not know explicitly that their relationship with the Divine is indeed with Jesus Christ. I’m paraphrasing the doctrine for the sake of brevity. But this is a distinction that I feel is pertinent to the conversation.

Peace,
Robert

Robert, very thoughtful and concise insight. .

Just to let you know that I do come from the more conservative belief that a personal relationship with Jesus is necessary for salvation. That without it, there is no hope. That we are without excuse, even in invincible ignorance (Romans 1:20). And also Jesus’ emphasis on the Great Commission. Why go out an evangelize the world if others could be safe in ignorance, right?

I do believe invincible ignorance covers the unborn, infants, and young children prior to willfully sinning.

Not arguing. Just giving my viewpoint. To be honest, I wish for your view to be valid.

 

[1neophyte]

Robert, very thoughtful and concise insight. .

Just to let you know that I do come from the more conservative belief that a personal relationship with Jesus is necessary for salvation. That without it, there is no hope. That we are without excuse, even in invincible ignorance (Romans 1:20). And also Jesus’ emphasis on the Great Commission. Why go out an evangelize the world if others could be safe in ignorance, right?

I do believe invincible ignorance covers the unborn, infants, and young children prior to willfully sinning.

Not arguing. Just giving my viewpoint. To be honest, I wish for your view to be valid.

I was in the middle of responding to you when you changed “hope” to “wish”. Just out of curiosity, why the change?

 

[meltzerboy]

Robert, very thoughtful and concise insight. .

Just to let you know that I do come from the more conservative belief that a personal relationship with Jesus is necessary for salvation. That without it, there is no hope. That we are without excuse, even in invincible ignorance (Romans 1:20). And also Jesus’ emphasis on the Great Commission. Why go out an evangelize the world if others could be safe in ignorance, right?

I do believe invincible ignorance covers the unborn, infants, and young children prior to willfully sinning.

Not arguing. Just giving my viewpoint. To be honest, I wish for your view to be valid.

Is that the viewpoint of most Protestant denominations, or are they split down the middle on this issue?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert, very thoughtful and concise insight. .

Just to let you know that I do come from the more conservative belief that a personal relationship with Jesus is necessary for salvation. That without it, there is no hope. That we are without excuse, even in invincible ignorance (Romans 1:20). And also Jesus’ emphasis on the Great Commission. **Why go out an evangelize the world if others could be safe in ignorance, right? **

I do believe invincible ignorance covers the unborn, infants, and young children prior to willfully sinning.

Not arguing. Just giving my viewpoint. To be honest, I wish for your view to be valid.

Thanks for the response. As for the question I highlighted above, the Church teaches that just because we have hope someone may still be saved because of invincible ignorance, that’s no excuse for not evangelizing the ignorant. We have a right and an obligation to evangelize. Unfortunately, too many Catholics see this teaching on invincible ignorance as an excuse for not evangelizing. It makes me want to smack my head. The logic is simply untenable. Just because a person may be saved in ignorance does not mean they will be saved. There is no safety in ignorance. We are all accountable for the moral law that God has written on our hearts. One is much less likely to get mired in sin and fall away from salvation if one knows Jesus Christ, his Gospel, and his Church.

Peace,
Robert

 

[drblank1]

I was in the middle of responding to you when you changed “hope” to “wish”. Just out of curiosity, why the change?

For me, “hope” would mean it could be true. But I don’t believe that. So I felt “wish” is a more precise positional word to use.

 

[drblank1]

Is that the viewpoint of most Protestant denominations, or are they split down the middle on this issue?

I believe it is the viewpoint of most Protestants. But I am not an expert on the matter by any means.

 

[drblank1]

Thanks for the response. As for the question I highlighted above, the Church teaches that just because we have hope someone may still be saved because of invincible ignorance, that’s no excuse for not evangelizing the ignorant. We have a right and an obligation to evangelize. Unfortunately, too many Catholics see this teaching on invincible ignorance as an excuse for not evangelizing. It makes me want to smack my head. The logic is simply untenable. Just because a person may be saved in ignorance does not mean they will be saved. There is no safety in ignorance. We are all accountable for the moral law that God has written on our hearts. One is much less likely to get mired in sin and fall away from salvation if one knows Jesus Christ, his Gospel, and his Church.

Peace,
Robert

Understood Robert. I find your questions and responses very intelligent for interfaith discourse.

 

[SalamKhan]

It’s a mystery of faith…sort of like transubstantiation…

The Church Fathers do their best to put into words the mysteries of God…but those words will never do it justice, nor can we ever fully understand it in this life.

If I could explain the Trinity to you, then I would be God and you could worship me.

Sometime ago, an Eastern Orthodox Christian pointed out to me that the Church Fathers did not criticise the beliefs of the pagans based on the accuracy of their recorded evidence and passed down knowledge, but that they criticised them based on the content of their beliefs.