RCC's view on Islam

[Gabriel_of_12]

SalamKhan;14745073]Sometime ago, an Eastern Orthodox Christian pointed out to me that the Church Fathers did not criticise the beliefs of the pagans based on the accuracy of their recorded evidence and passed down knowledge,

The CCC still teaches this today.

but that they cr iticised them based on the content of their beliefs.

That is very debatable. History officially records the Church Fathers defending their unchanged Catholic faith during their martyrdom’s, letters, and councils. When ever one of their own members were found teaching something other. Their criticism never went over and against any particular pagan belief’s or understanding, but against their own (Christian) members who tried to introduce such pagan belief’s or understanding’s into Christianity. Let us be clear here. The Pagans and non-believers possessed the political powers to send our Catholic Saints and Martyrs to their deaths for their Catholic faith. I believe you have been misinformed.

Trinity is never a definition that attempts to define God or divide God into multiple deities. Many past and present philosophical ideas falsely attempt to discredit or define a Trinity that never exist’s nor ever reaches the true faith understanding of the Trinity.

In short Trinity is divine revelation, revealed to our humanity threefold (perfection). Divine revelation is made From only One God the Father, One Word of God incarnate, One God who is Spirit. Though this divine revelation is made to our humanity in time and space distinctly and personally, by God the Father who speaks His Word, Who is God Incarnate, Sends His Love who is God the Holy Spirit. God is distinct in His divine revelation, yet we believe by divine revelation God is never divided, separated or confused. God is One, divinely revealed in three persons distinctly. I believe false philosophical ideas have trouble defining divine revelation in the term “persons”, which is another thread.

To the OP, the CCC does not critique or address the faith of Islam in particular. The CCC is addressing the Muslim who submits to the One Creator God. This we have in common with both Jews and Muslims. When one begins to misinterpret the CCC by adding the tenants or practices of Judaism and Islam, one missed, or is overreaching what the CCC teaches about our shared faith, in only One God with Muslims (not Islam) and our elder brother the Jew (not judaism).

Peace be with you

 

[Contarini]

Sorry, you misunderstand. Read my post again–I didn’t miss the point at all, I made exactly the point you are making–they both claim to know the same friend, Peter. And yes, that’s my point–they have a completely different understanding of “Peter.”

The Jews are another matter altogether–even in the Old Testament the idea of God evolved from one period to another. Likewise the Christian concept has evolved–same God, but a better understanding. Christians don’t think it’s somehow a different God, or that the Jews were mistaken, they simply think that they have a fuller understanding of the same God.

The Muslims don’t claim that their idea of God “evolved” from the Christian/Jewish God; they simply believe Christians and Jews are wrong, and they are right. Totally different approach. Keep in mind Muhammad got his Bible stories from Gnostic Gospels; of course Muslims would say it came directly from God through Gabriel. But you can trace some of the Bible stories in the Qur’an (Jesus making clay birds and making them live so they fly away for example) directly to Gnostic Gospels.

Well, they don’t claim that their idea “evolved,” because they claim to be restoring the true understanding that Jesus and the OT prophets had. I don’t see how that helps your side of the argument at all–quite the reverse.

Edwin

 

[Vonsalza]

Well, they don’t claim that their idea “evolved,” because they claim to be restoring the true understanding that Jesus and the OT prophets had.

Did Ericaspirit claim something to the contrary?

 

[dronald]

Is that the viewpoint of most Protestant denominations, or are they split down the middle on this issue?

It’s pretty common in basically all Evangelical churches. There is an urgency in our Christian beliefs to tell the world about Jesus so they will not be condemned. For the purpose of staying on topic: All Muslims who do not put their faith in Jesus, repent of their sins, and continue to let Him do His sanctifying work will be condemned to hell. Jesus nor Paul were light on this point.

Muslims do not worship our God. Jesus is our God and if “they would have known the father they would know Him also”. The Holy Spirit is our God, the One they blaspheme by often referring to Him as Gabriel.

Our God is trinitarian, and no amount of later mythologies surrounding Abraham, Moses and Jesus will get me to believe that Muslims worship the same God that we do.

 

[adf417]

It’s pretty common in basically all Evangelical churches. There is an urgency in our Christian beliefs to tell the world about Jesus so they will not be condemned. For the purpose of staying on topic: All Muslims who do not put their faith in Jesus, repent of their sins, and continue to let Him do His sanctifying work will be condemned to hell. Jesus nor Paul were light on this point.

Muslims do not worship our God. Jesus is our God and if “they would have known the father they would know Him also”. The Holy Spirit is our God, the One they blaspheme by often referring to Him as Gabriel.

Our God is trinitarian, and no amount of later mythologies surrounding Abraham, Moses and Jesus will get me to believe that Muslims worship the same God that we do.

Hi dronald,

I assume you would put Jews into this same catagory also, correct? If so, my question would be - at what moment in time did all Jew’s not know or no longer know the Father?

Peace!!!

 

[dronald]

Hi dronald,

I assume you would put Jews into this same catagory also, correct? If so, my question would be - at what moment in time did all Jew’s not know or no longer know the Father?

Peace!!!

I don’t put anyone into any categories, I only believe what Jesus said. I also don’t want to be offensive but the fact is that the Gospel it’s self is offensive to those who don’t know Christ.

Jesus is the stone rejected by the builders that has become the cornerstone and there is salvation in no one else. The Jews are the builders, Jesus is the cornerstone that they reject. (Acts 4:11-12)

The Jews that heard the message of the apostles turned to Christ and knew the father at that time, and all Jews who do the same will know the father. The fullness of God has now been revealed though Jesus Christ and all that reject Him since His coming know neither Him not the Father.

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
John 8:42‭-‬43 ESV

 

[adf417]

I don’t put anyone into any categories, I only believe what Jesus said. I also don’t want to be offensive but the fact is that the Gospel it’s self is offensive to those who don’t know Christ.

Jesus is the stone rejected by the builders that has become the cornerstone and there is salvation in no one else. The Jews are the builders, Jesus is the cornerstone that they reject. (Acts 4:11-12)

The Jews that heard the message of the apostles turned to Christ and knew the father at that time, and all Jews who do the same will know the father. The fullness of God has now been revealed though Jesus Christ and all that reject Him since His coming know neither Him not the Father.

This doesn’t answer my question. If you cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint the moment in which all Jews no longer knew the father back then why do you seem to think you can p(name removed by moderator)oint that moment now?

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
John 8:42‭-‬43 ESV

Peace!!!

 

[dronald]

This doesn’t answer my question. If you cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint the moment in which all Jews no longer knew the father back then why do you seem to think you can p(name removed by moderator)oint that moment now?



Peace!!!

Because I can only speak of what I know from what our God has taught us. We know that Paul says that all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law, and all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law. Paul speaks of an urgency to let people know that there is Salvation in no one else but Christ. Of course Jesus agrees with this point.

So “when exactly did every Jew everywhere no longer know the father?” I would say at the point of Jesus’ Resurrection and Ascension or perhaps before for many, I don’t know, I do not know their hearts or how the will and mind of God works with every philosophical question regarding salvation; I only know what God has told us.

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 1:20‭-‬25 ESV
bible.com/59/1co.1.20-25.ESV

This is what I preach. Christ crucified. If people see it as a stumbling block or folly then I’ll still preach it. Anyone who wants to be saved of their sins right now needs to know this, repent and be baptized. So while I do not have all the answers to every question, I can say that all need to believe in Jesus and repent in order to be saved.

 

[adf417]

This is what I preach. Christ crucified. If people see it as a stumbling block or folly then I’ll still preach it. Anyone who wants to be saved of their sins right now needs to know this, repent and be baptized. So while I do not have all the answers to every question, I can say that all need to believe in Jesus and repent in order to be saved.

Then one could see where this could be a bit out of line, especially sense all believers don’t agree with you.

Muslims do not worship our God. Jesus is our God and if “they would have known the father they would know Him also”.

Peace!!!

 

[dronald]

Then one could see where this could be a bit out of line, especially sense all believers don’t agree with you.

Peace!!!

That’s not even close to true and I don’t believe that you’ve proven a single thing in your conclusion.

People can know with complete confidence certain truths like Jesus was resurrected and Muslims don’t believe in our trinitarian God without knowing everything about who is saved, when and how.

I’ve explained my position quite clearly and it’s fine if people disagree.

 

[adf417]

That’s not even close to true and I don’t believe that you’ve proven a single thing in your conclusion.

People can know with complete confidence certain truths like Jesus was resurrected and Muslims don’t believe in our trinitarian God without knowing everything about who is saved, when and how.

I’ve explained my position quite clearly and it’s fine if people disagree.

I never intended to prove anything but that the readers now have something else to consider when pondering your personal conclusion.

Peace!!!

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Well, they don’t claim that their idea “evolved,” because they claim to be restoring the true understanding that Jesus and the OT prophets had. I don’t see how that helps your side of the argument at all–quite the reverse.

Edwin

I’ve been away from this thread for a while, so this answer may be redundant.

In any case, I agree with you: Muslims claim to have a “restored” or “original” understanding of revelation that is superior to the Talmud or New Testament, both of which have been corrupted in their view.

But of course this supports my view (that Jews/Christians have a different understanding of the nature of God than Muslims). If you read any of the stories (for example, take the story of Joseph in Egypt) in the Bible and in the Qur’an, you will see that the stories have similarities but are actually quite different.

 

[Contarini]

I’ve been away from this thread for a while, so this answer may be redundant.

In any case, I agree with you: Muslims claim to have a “restored” or “original” understanding of revelation that is superior to the Talmud or New Testament, both of which have been corrupted in their view.

But of course this supports my view (that Jews/Christians have a different understanding of the nature of God than Muslims). If you read any of the stories (for example, take the story of Joseph in Egypt) in the Bible and in the Qur’an, you will see that the stories have similarities but are actually quite different.

Of course the stories are different. And of course the view of God is different. But the fact that Christians use the OT more or less “straight” while the Muslims have their supposedly “corrected” version of the stories does not mean that the Islamic picture of God is radically different while the Jewish and Christian pictures are the same, if that’s what you are saying.

To say this radically trivializes the Trinity.

What about the Islamic story reflects a radically different view of God?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Of course the stories are different. And of course the view of God is different. But the fact that Christians use the OT more or less “straight” while the Muslims have their supposedly “corrected” version of the stories does not mean that the Islamic picture of God is radically different while the Jewish and Christian pictures are the same, if that’s what you are saying.

To say this radically trivializes the Trinity.

What about the Islamic story reflects a radically different view of God?

The Jewish view of “God” shows a development even within the OT, so it should be no surprise that it continues to develop within the NT. I’m afraid I don’t understand your comment about “this radically trivializes the Trinity.” ???

A lot of things show a radically different view of God in Islam. First, of course, they deny the Trinity. They deny the divinity of Jesus. And if you look at the word “love” in both the NT and the Qur’an you will find “God is love” in the NT and a host of quotations about love of God and love of neighbor, and the opposite–the love of God for man; and it’s almost always unqualified. In the Qur’an, half the mentions of “love” are negative–“God does NOT love the …” and the other half are positive but qualified: “God loves those who …” In the NT we are told to pray to “Our father…” in a very familiar way. That does not and would not occur in the Qur’an–God is much more distant and formal. I could go on. Islam is fairly (very?) consistent in its view of God.

So, yes, a radically different view of God.