RCIA and annulment issues

[KJ0706]

Good morning,

I’m finishing the initial part of RCIA and it’s been great. Quick background: Divorced (civil marriage). Married to current spouse for 10 years. I have no issues going through the annulment process and understand its purpose but my wife (also divorced from a prior civil marriage) has no interest in going through the annulment process on her end.

Initially annulment was explained to me as filling out paperwork and providing documentation. Now I’ve found out that they need four witnesses to ask about my first marriage (which ended 16 years ago)? Again, I’m okay with that. My current spouse wants no part of this. She has no contact with her ex (doesn’t even have an address or phone number) and isn’t becoming Catholic (she’s not anti-Catholic, but has no interest in converting) and doesn’t want to go through the annulment process.

If it was just a matter of sending the Church her old marriage and divorce records that would be fine, but filling out a huge questionnaire, giving contact info for her friends to receive phone calls, mail, regarding a marriage she’s all but forgotten about? No thanks.

So that puts me in a position where, of course, I can’t continue with RCIA because the Church can annul my first marriage but not recognize my current one. I personally don’t understand why this is a big deal (we had a non-religious marriage) but I know the Church does.

This is upsetting to me because it looks like I’ll have to quit RCIA. I suppose I could go to some other church but they just don’t hold an attraction for me the way the Catholic Church does.

As an aside, as many others have said, this seems like a strange request (accepting my current marriage) since it wasn’t a Catholic one and my wife isn’t doing RCIA.

Am I out of luck, I guess, is what I’m asking.

 

[juno24]

First, let me say, “Welcome to the forums.” I’m sorry to hear you are running into some turbulence with regard to the previous marriages. I am not married, never have been, and am not a convert, so I have little to offer in that regard. I would suggest that you make an appointment with the pastor of your parish and all 3 of you meet to discuss this. It seems as though you have some idea of what the annulment process is for, but you don’t really have a true understanding. BOTH the prospective spouses must be free to marry, and since both of you have previous marriages, BOTH of them must be examined. You both must be free to marry one another. Think of it like this: say you have never been married, but you fall in love with someone who is already married. While YOU are free to marry, the person you’ve fallen in love with is not, because she’s already married. You can’t just marry her anyway. Right now, BOTH of you are presumed to be married to OTHER people, so both marriages must be examined for nullity.
Again, though, like I said, make an appointment with your pastor and discuss this. He can go over all the details of the process, as well as why both marriages must be examined.
Good luck to you, and God bless you on your journey.

Good morning,

I’m finishing the initial part of RCIA and it’s been great. Quick background: Divorced (civil marriage). Married to current spouse for 10 years. I have no issues going through the annulment process and understand its purpose but my wife (also divorced from a prior civil marriage) has no interest in going through the annulment process on her end.

Initially annulment was explained to me as filling out paperwork and providing documentation. Now I’ve found out that they need four witnesses to ask about my first marriage (which ended 16 years ago)? Again, I’m okay with that. My current spouse wants no part of this. She has no contact with her ex (doesn’t even have an address or phone number) and isn’t becoming Catholic (she’s not anti-Catholic, but has no interest in converting) and doesn’t want to go through the annulment process.

If it was just a matter of sending the Church her old marriage and divorce records that would be fine, but filling out a huge questionnaire, giving contact info for her friends to receive phone calls, mail, regarding a marriage she’s all but forgotten about? No thanks.

So that puts me in a position where, of course, I can’t continue with RCIA because the Church can annul my first marriage but not recognize my current one. I personally don’t understand why this is a big deal (we had a non-religious marriage) but I know the Church does.

This is upsetting to me because it looks like I’ll have to quit RCIA. I suppose I could go to some other church but they just don’t hold an attraction for me the way the Catholic Church does.

As an aside, as many others have said, this seems like a strange request (accepting my current marriage) since it wasn’t a Catholic one and my wife isn’t doing RCIA.

Am I out of luck, I guess, is what I’m asking.

 

[YADA]

As a person who went through RCIA and who had married, divorced and remarried a divorced person which necessitated both of us going through the anullment process I can feel your angst and I definitely have empathy with you.

I also can understand that your wife is relunctant …what causes me concern is her inability to see how important this is to you and your faith journey. Uniting your life to another becoming one flesh means you sacrifice your own desires at times.

I am so thankful my second marriage was centered in Christ and lived out anchored each week in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass …it is what held us together when life through us challenges … something we only realized we needed two years after our initial marriage …the angst and fear (that one or both of us would not recieve that decision) the annullment process wrought was nothing compared to the joy of that 5 minute ceremony blessing our marriage in the Church.

Good luck …I pray your wife will consider your spiritual well being and participate for your sake and the health and well being of your marriage.

 

[KJ0706]

My wife sees how important this is, but she doesn’t want any part of digging up her past or having the Church as her friends a bunch of questions about a marriage that ended over a decade ago.

I can see her point. This is something uniquely Catholic. I didn’t know there would be this much detail, either; I thought I’d provide paperwork. The idea of complete strangers calling up people to ask them a bunch of questions seemed…strange to me. Especially since annulments had been described to me as “no big deal” and relatively painless (many people don’t have contact info for their ex spouses and I was told annulments are usually just a rubber stamp if you weren’t in a prior Catholic marriage).

Evidently, it’s more complicated than I thought. : )

 

[7_Sorrows]

I have been Catholic for 8 1/2 years and just began my annulment process over a year ago. I probably won’t get an answer for another yesr. I am not remarried nor engaged, but since it is no cost in my diocese now I decided to get it over with.
I don’t want to discourage you or your current wife, but I find the whole process miserable. My marriage took place 29-33 years ago! I provided 2 witnesses, but they wanted more. I plainly said I wasn’t putting anyone else through this. My two witnesses complained and were shocked at the questions they had to answer. I am in agreement with the Catholic church on everything except this. It really needs to be reformed. I am not sure if my post will be deleted, but so be it.
I love being Catholic except for this annulment situation. I am a Catholic in good standing since I have not remarried and am not in a relationship so I can receive the Sacraments.
I would make an appointment to sit down with the person in charge of annulments at your parish and explain your wife’s reluctance or to have her hear from this person why you both need annulments of your first marriages.

 

[7_Sorrows]

My wife sees how important this is, but she doesn’t want any part of digging up her past or having the Church as her friends a bunch of questions about a marriage that ended over a decade ago.

I can see her point. This is something uniquely Catholic. I didn’t know there would be this much detail, either; I thought I’d provide paperwork. The idea of complete strangers calling up people to ask them a bunch of questions seemed…strange to me. Especially since annulments had been described to me as “no big deal” and relatively painless (many people don’t have contact info for their ex spouses and I was told annulments are usually just a rubber stamp if you weren’t in a prior Catholic marriage).

Evidently, it’s more complicated than I thought. : )

YES! Much more complicated and much more than a rubber stamp!

I sometimes wonder how many others might be entering the Catholic Church or staying if it weren’t for this process!

 

[Catholic1954]

Good morning,

I’m finishing the initial part of RCIA and it’s been great. Quick background: Divorced (civil marriage). Married to current spouse for 10 years. I have no issues going through the annulment process and understand its purpose but my wife (also divorced from a prior civil marriage) has no interest in going through the annulment process on her end.

Initially annulment was explained to me as filling out paperwork and providing documentation. Now I’ve found out that they need four witnesses to ask about my first marriage (which ended 16 years ago)? Again, I’m okay with that. My current spouse wants no part of this. She has no contact with her ex (doesn’t even have an address or phone number) and isn’t becoming Catholic (she’s not anti-Catholic, but has no interest in converting) and doesn’t want to go through the annulment process.

If it was just a matter of sending the Church her old marriage and divorce records that would be fine, but filling out a huge questionnaire, giving contact info for her friends to receive phone calls, mail, regarding a marriage she’s all but forgotten about? No thanks.

So that puts me in a position where, of course, I can’t continue with RCIA because the Church can annul my first marriage but not recognize my current one. I personally don’t understand why this is a big deal (we had a non-religious marriage) but I know the Church does.

This is upsetting to me because it looks like I’ll have to quit RCIA. I suppose I could go to some other church but they just don’t hold an attraction for me the way the Catholic Church does.

As an aside, as many others have said, this seems like a strange request (accepting my current marriage) since it wasn’t a Catholic one and my wife isn’t doing RCIA.

Am I out of luck, I guess, is what I’m asking.

PLEASE make an appointment with the pastor as soon as possible to discuss this problem. He will give you good advice. There is no need to stop your participation in the RCIA process at this time; leave everything in the hands of the Holy Spirit and He will work everything out in His own time.

 

[Casilda]

I would not be seeking answers here or anywhere online. If your rcia director was like ours, not much better advice there, either. I would stick with asking the priest and for him to refer you to an annulment specialist, a canon lawyer, whatever they are called. Met one once, very knowledgeable fellow.

My mom had the witnesses eons ago but no one could find her first husband who abandoned her and my half brother. Without that the church could not proceed. Leaving her a divorced mom with a young boy to raise in a time when divorcees were frowned upon. Luckily she met my future dad and they were together until death parted them. Yes, the bureaucracy needs some merciful human intervention instead of outdated forms used by pencil pushers.

 

[Gorgias]

Good morning

Hi, KJ! Welcome to the forums!

You mention in your posts that both you and your current wife have previous “civil marriages”, and that the whole nullity process seems confusing because your previous marriages “weren’t Catholic ones” (let alone that your wife isn’t attempting to enter into the Catholic Church).

Maybe it might make sense to talk a little bit about the Catholic understanding of Christian marriage.

I’m guessing (by virtue of the fact that you’re being advised that you both need full nullity case proceedings) that you both are baptized Christians? If that’s the case, then it’s not the case that you have merely “civil marriages” – the Catholic Church would say that, since you met all the obligations that your Christian communities placed on you for a valid wedding, then therefore you two each have prior Christian, sacramental marriages. That’s a pretty big deal.

On one hand, the Catholic Church can’t exactly look at your past Christian communities and say “sorry… they don’t have sacramental marriage”; that would be treating them as if they (and their rules and policies) don’t count. Since (I’m assuming) ya’ll entered into your marriages as part of those communities, then the Catholic Church honors those commitments.

On the other hand, the Catholic understanding of Christian marriage comes into play here. We look to God’s words in Genesis and Jesus’ in the Gospels, and teach – along with Jesus – that marriage “until death do you part” is what “God intended from the beginning”, indeed!

So, the question becomes whether you and your current wife were free to marry ten years ago. Although the civil government, looking at your civil divorces, would say “sure!”, the Church is asking whether a prior sacramental bond existed.

Now, as part of that process, they aren’t going to ask what happened during your previous marriages – they’re only going to ask, “was there anything leading up to the wedding that would have made the (previous) marriage invalid? Perhaps there was a certain lack of consent for one or both spouses? Perhaps there was an impediment to marriage that made a valid marriage impossible?”

In order to do this, they need the statements of the spouse(s) and some witnesses. In my experience, though, they don’t go “calling up and chatting” with your witnesses – there’s a questionnaire that they send them.

I can understand your wife’s reticence to participate in such a process, especially if she doesn’t agree with the Church’s stance of “till death do us part” without the prospect of divorce.

What’s in play, of course, is that your current marriage isn’t a “non-religious marriage.” By virtue of your identities as Christians, your marriage would be sacramental. It’s not that you’re seeking the nullity of “Catholic marriage”; it’s that you two putatively entered into Christian marriages, and that’s what’s at stake.

There are still questions to be asked, of course, and perhaps your pastor might be willing to explore them with you. Has he told you that you “have to quit RCIA”? I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion unless it’s been told to you by the pastor.

 

[KJ0706]

This issue is that my (current) wife isn’t going to give any information regarding her ex, or any witnesses, and she doesn’t want to fill out a 54 question form. In short, she’s not interested in participating at all. She put this behind her when she divorced over a decade ago and isn’t going to bring it up.

And the Church isn’t going to process my annulment without processing hers.

And I can’t enter the Church without an annulment.

 

[Marysann]

Who told you that the Church won’t handle your annulment case because your wife refuses to cooperate? This situation is not as uncommon as you might think.

 

[KJ0706]

Who told you that the Church won’t handle your annulment case because your wife refuses to cooperate? This situation is not as uncommon as you might think.

That’s what the annulment reps at my church are telling me; they need to handle my annulment and my wife’s at the same time; they can’t do mine by itself because we are married.

I’m working on my wife. She didn’t have a problem with providing marriage and divorce docs but the idea of witnesses and someone searching Google to find her ex does not sit well with her.

 

[Casilda]

That’s what the **annulment reps **at my church are telling me; they need to handle my annulment and my wife’s at the same time; they can’t do mine by itself because we are married.

I’m working on my wife. She didn’t have a problem with providing marriage and divorce docs but the idea of witnesses and someone searching Google to find her ex does not sit well with her.

This is your problem. Call the diocese office and ask for a canon lawyer. Those ‘reps’ are probably malinformed volunteers that do way more harm than good. They did not know how to handle my case in seven different parishes. My husband and I had only ever been married to each other. The ‘problem’ according to them was that I was a Catholic who married a Protestant and I was never confirmed AND my husband now wanted to convert. Seriously, I got many different labels to wear for what exactly the state of my marriage was. We had to seek an Eastern Catholic priest to sort it out. The problem was the Roman diocese practice of herding people towards volunteers, instead of dealing directly with a priest.

 

[Marysann]

Ok, I was confused. I thought your ex-wife refused to cooperate. You should be able to proceed with your case even if your wife doesn’t want to do it at this time. Please contact a canon lawyer for advice. I you can’t find a canon lawyer locally, contact the St. Joseph Foundation. It is a group of lay people who help people to protect their rights under canon law. They provide their services free of charge and are supported by donations. Here is contact info:

The St. Joseph Foundation
85882 Water Works Rd.
Hopedale, OH 43976
Phone: 740-937-2054
Fax: 866-257-6883

Please don’t quit RCIA.

 

[Gorgias]

That’s what the annulment reps at my church are telling me

What do you mean by ‘annulment reps’ – the pastor or another priest or a deacon? Or does your parish have lay volunteers who help out RCIA attendees with nullity questions?

If it’s the latter, then get an appointment with your pastor. The ‘reps’ (whoever they are) are telling you what usually happens, not what has to happen.

And, your pastor might be willing to talk with you about how you might proceed with RCIA, given the situation.

 

[KJ0706]

What do you mean by ‘annulment reps’ – the pastor or another priest or a deacon? Or does your parish have lay volunteers who help out RCIA attendees with nullity questions?

Lay volunteers. Retired couple who handles all the paperwork without involving anyone at the parish. They take all the paperwork, then send me a questionnaire and ask for four witnesses. Once this is all completed they forward it to the diocesian tribunal. Then I wait.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Lay volunteers. Retired couple who handles all the paperwork without involving anyone at the parish. They take all the paperwork, then send me a questionnaire and ask for four witnesses. Once this is all completed they forward it to the diocesian tribunal. Then I wait.

Have you started the process yet? Have you received the questionnaire? It is a long and slow process I will warn you in advance. It took 4 years for an acquaintance of mine.

 

[KJ0706]

Have you started the process yet? Have you received the questionnaire? It is a long and slow process I will warn you in advance. It took 4 years for an acquaintance of mine.

No. I’ve sent in all of my documents but my current spouse is reluctant to send hers in. Hence, I’m stuck.

 

[7_Sorrows]

No. I’ve sent in all of my documents but my current spouse is reluctant to send hers in. Hence, I’m stuck.

I am sorry you are having to go through this when you are so eager to join the
Church.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m sorry to hear of your troubles. I know that this is a big obstacle for many that want to come into the Catholic Church. It can truly test your resolve, to be sure. As one who handles RCIA at my parish, I have seen this first hand. I concur with the advice that it would be a good idea to talk to your pastor about all this. He is in a far better position to advise you than any of us here. And, no doubt, he would be happy to do so.

Perhaps this is something you already know, but I like to try to encourage people to see it from the Church’s perspective.

In Catholic teaching, we take the sacraments very seriously. That is why we are always asking for documentation regarding Baptisms, for example. We need to know for sure where and how and if a person was baptized because the sacrament cannot be repeated.

The Church also takes marriage very seriously, such as Jesus’ teaching that marriage is for life and what God has joined, man must not separate. This is why people cannot just get divorced and marry someone else.

But, the Church acknowledges that there are many cases (in the present day in particular where the understanding of marriage is so poor) where people do not validly enter into marriage even though they go through the motions and file all the right paperwork. This is where the annulment process comes in. It is the means by which the Church can investigate these former bonds in order to figure out whether or not a marriage actually took place. And if it is determined that a prior bond did not take place, then the person is free to marry someone else.

In cases like yours, that means investigating the prior marriages for both of you because you both need to be free to marry in order to be married in the Catholic Church.

And this does require an investigation, because the Church takes this seriously. If it was just a matter of looking at a few documents and one-page form from one person’s perspective, it would be very difficult for those entrusted with investigating to form a clear judgment. The margin for error would be much higher.

So, as much as it can be painful and tedious and just plain difficult, the hard questions must be asked. Multiple sources must be consulted. Both parties must have the opportunity to share their side of the story. Through this process, the tribunal office (the office at the diocese that handles these cases) can get to a place where they can more confidently render a just judgment.

I had a guy this past year drop out of RCIA for this very reason. He himself had not been previously married, but his wife had been. She wasn’t even in RCIA, so it was difficult for either of them to understand why she had to go through the annulment process. It dredged up a painful past relationship that they had both already put behind them, and they didn’t want to have to go through that. I get that. I really do. But, what is the Church supposed to do? Grant an annulment with no investigation? Pretend that the prior marriage bond makes no difference? That would certainly make my job easier and more pleasant, but then we have just undermined the Church’s teaching on marriage and its permanence. The whole teaching becomes effectively meaningless because it no longer matters whether people get divorced and remarried in any circumstance. Indeed, that is exactly what has happened in many Protestant denominations who have opted for the easier, less confrontational route.

It’s a tough situation all around. No denying that. There is no easy answer that will make the whole process easy and painless for everyone involved. I get why that is frustrating to people. I do. So many other sins of our past life need simply be brought to Confession to have the slate wiped clean and make entry into the Church possible. But not with divorce and remarriage. For that, it takes a long process of answering all sorts of personal questions and putting friends and family on the spot to do the same. That’s no one’s idea of a good time.

Pope Francis has been making attempts at reform to make the process less painful, but there is only so much that can be done. I don’t really see a way around it.

My advice (in addition to talking to your pastor which, again, I greatly encourage you to do) is to take it to prayer. Pray for wisdom. Pray for courage. Pray about the ways you can talk this over with your wife. Pray for the whole process. Pray, pray, and pray some more! That’s the only way through it.

I will say a prayer for you and your family.