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7_Sorrows
Guest
How many hours are spent by the Tribunal working on these annulments?!
If some take up to 4 years that would be a lot of hours!
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If some take up to 4 years that would be a lot of hours!
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Gorgias
Guest
The process has been streamlined to a certain extent, and recently, by Pope Francis.
In addition, there are so many variables in nullity cases, and so many different types of situations out there, that it’s not particularly helpful to compare any one nullity case to any other one (especially since we don’t know the details of either of the cases!).
Umm… the Orthodox Churches aren’t in communion with Rome. That’s the whole point of them remaining distinct from the Catholic Church.
Are you, perhaps, thinking of the Eastern Rite Churches (Ukrainian Catholic, Maronite, Greek Catholic)? They are in communion with the pope – which makes them ‘Catholic’! – but they do not allow “divorce and remarriage”.
You’ve never worked in a Catholic parish, then (or, perhaps in any situation in which one deals with the public), have you? Let me assure you: people – even Catholics!
– will say whatever is necessary to say in order to get what they want. The human ability to rationalize is quite stunning. (“Oh, it’s ok if we lie to our priest… it’s for a good cause, anyway!”)
Because it acts as expert testimony. Remember, what the tribunal is looking for is proof that there was an impediment or missing consent at the time of the wedding. One’s ‘testimony’ to a marriage counselor could provide precisely that kind of evidence.
7 Sorrows:
With all due respect… I think you’re using the term “valid” in a different way than what the Church means when it speaks of “validity” of a marriage.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
Without going into details, the circumstances involving my marriage definitelyThe process has been streamlined to a certain extent, and recently, by Pope Francis.
In addition, there are so many variables in nullity cases, and so many different types of situations out there, that it’s not particularly helpful to compare any one nullity case to any other one (especially since we don’t know the details of either of the cases!).
Umm… the Orthodox Churches aren’t in communion with Rome. That’s the whole point of them remaining distinct from the Catholic Church.
Are you, perhaps, thinking of the Eastern Rite Churches (Ukrainian Catholic, Maronite, Greek Catholic)? They are in communion with the pope – which makes them ‘Catholic’! – but they do not allow “divorce and remarriage”.
You’ve never worked in a Catholic parish, then (or, perhaps in any situation in which one deals with the public), have you? Let me assure you: people – even Catholics!
Because it acts as expert testimony. Remember, what the tribunal is looking for is proof that there was an impediment or missing consent at the time of the wedding. One’s ‘testimony’ to a marriage counselor could provide precisely that kind of evidence.
With all due respect… I think you’re using the term “valid” in a different way than what the Church means when it speaks of “validity” of a marriage.
qualifies.
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Gorgias
Guest
Right – and I would never request you share those details publicly on an internet site – but, by that, do you mean “there was an impediment to marriage or a problem with consent at the time of the wedding, which was unknown to one or both of the spouses at that time, or the form of the wedding was lacking or defective”? 'Cause… that’s what validity speaks to, and that’s what a tribunal has competency to determine.
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Horton
Guest
The laity who help with Tribunal marriage cases are trained volunteers. They are trained by the diocese to be advocates. The priest of the diocese assigns the case to the advocate while he oversees the process.
The initial paperwork is to determine what type of case it is, basically a full case or a paperwork case. Then they either send the long questionnaire or request the documents to prove their was an impediment to that marriage.
Marriage cases can be difficult and trying, but it is the method the Church uses. To the OP please make an appointment with your advocate and priest to help explain the problems you are having with your wife not cooperating. They can advise you to your very specific issues. While these forums are great to get general advice no one here can address the specific issues in your case.
I would suggest you continue with RCIA, pray for your wife, and trust God.
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WilliamE
Guest
While I have never worked in a Catholic parish, I spent many years dealing with the public - mostly in situations where people aren’t at their best. It’s certainly true that people will lie to get what they want. And as you observed, Catholics are no different than anyone else in that regard. My point was that the result of the examinations of marriages by the tribunal probably does not result in a determination of validity that is significantly more accurate than a self-reporting system would be. I’m sure that petitioners (and witnesses) lie to the tribunal all the time. I suspect that the occasional valid marriage that is prevented from getting a decree of nullity is more than offset by the objectively invalid marriages of those who cannot get an annulment due to circumstances beyond their control. If the Church wanted to establish a system of keeping folks out, there is probably not a better way of achieving that goal than the current annulment scheme.You’ve never worked in a Catholic parish, then (or, perhaps in any situation in which one deals with the public), have you? Let me assure you: people – even Catholics!
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Gorgias
Guest
Just curious: on what do you base that assertion? What information or insight are you privy to, that leads to that conclusion?
Or are you just cynical about the process?
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Phemie
Guest
I would bet that the average Catholic has no idea what renders a marriage invalid and wouldn’t know what to lie about. I’ve talked to people who were witnesses in an annulment case and who, even after that marriage was declared invalid had no idea why. Being familiar with the couple and the situation at the time of the wedding, I had a pretty good idea.
In fact, so ignorant of what renders a marriage invalid are some couples that one in our parish even replied “no” to the question about accepting children during the wedding rite! Priest was shocked but proceeded with the rest of the ceremony.
I’ve been privy to one marriage that was only celebrated because the groom felt pressure from the KofC. He had transferred in to our local Council from another Council and been elected to the executive. He was cohabiting and had a child which caused great distress to older Council members - it says a lot that the younger members thought there was nothing wrong with this. They had a quick wedding and were separated within the year.
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WilliamE
Guest
As I’m sure you correctly surmised, I am not privy to any inside information as to how the Church operates. As I mentioned in the post from which you took your quote, I have several years experience working with people in situations where they are not at their best. Situations that they are highly motivated to get out of and are not above being dishonest to make that happen. I guess it is from this experience that I have developed a bit of “insight” into how people think and act.
And yes, I am highly cynical about the annulment process.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
Sadly, I have to agree. Even though it has been updated or streamlined or reformed to a small degree it is too bureaucratic. If they are concerned about people not telling the truth I think it would be wise to have sessions with someone like they do for marriage counseling. These could be anywhere from 6 months to a year.
The Catholic Church should be showing mercy to those wanting to come into the fold. Instead they are treated like criminals who need to be punished.Like I said, I am not going into details, but mine should be pretty cut and dry or black and white. But it put so much stress and sadness going through the process because I had been through varying degrees of trauma back in those years plus I lost two parents 3 months apart not too long before I was divorced. It definitely opened up old wounds and much emotional suffering. Of course, it is not over as I don’t have an answer yet and probably won’t for a year.
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Horton
Guest
The Catholic Church is merciful in all things. Making sure couples are in a sacramental marriage and/or out of situation that could be grave matter is showing mercy.
While I get you personally are having a difficult time with this now, your experience is just that, your story. Making a blanket statement that the Church doesn’t show mercy and treats people like criminals is disrespectful.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
That is how you are made to feel when they are questioning your honesty and integrity. Who is to say the witnesses are going to be truthful? I have a friend who was widowed and she met a divorced man. Both are Catholic. They lived together and during that time filed for the annulment. 18 months later they entered into a civil marriage without an answer yet from the tribunal. I don’t know what the ruling was, but they were receiving the Sacraments all the while. When I got paperwork back from the tribunal it said I could not marry until a determination had been made. That was fine because I was not and am not in a relationship. Since my friend was already in a civil marriage, did the tribunal feel pressured to annul the marriage? They finally married in the Catholic Church. Were they given favoritism since both were cradle Catholics?
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
You might wish to listen to more of the daily Mass homilies of Pope Francis as he speaks of the failures, the miserable failures, which he addresses so well.
This is not just the story of 7 Sorrows – it is a horror lived by a vast number of people, as those of us who have worked in tribunals and as parish priests well know.
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Horton
Guest
Everyone who not currently in civil marriage is told to not marry until the tribunal process is done and a decision is made. From the information you have provided regarding your friend, it appears she wasn’t following the correct path in her relationship with her now husband. It seems she decided to ignore Church teaching and follow her own will rather the will of God.
Tribunals make decisions based on facts & information, not who is a cradle catholic or who is currently civilly married.
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Horton
Guest
I understand the process is difficult, I’ve been through it myself. But rather that dwelling on the difficulty and making assumptions about the motives of the Church & tribunal, I educated myself about the process. I went to training to become an advocate for those going through the process. I wanted to take my experience and turn it into something useful. I believe we are given a choice when going through difficult circumstances, we can either use it to grow or we can use it as an excuse to be miserable. I choose growth, I had enough misery prior to being received in the Church.
I get that the process is very difficult, almost impossible, in some areas of the world. In the US people at least have access to priests and tribunals. When they come to these forums to ask questions about marriage, divorce, annulments…we should be helpful rather than negative. We all have our own stories in these areas, most of us have had pain in these areas. We need to bring it to God in prayer and trust in His plan for our lives.
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Gorgias
Guest
OK… but, what does “too bureaucratic” mean? If the Church is trying to find out whether there was a problem with ‘consent’, or the presence of a (previously undisclosed) impediment, how would you suggest that the Church discover such a circumstance?
They’re really not. That was the presumption that WilliamE was making.
Fair enough. Again, I’d like to ask your opinion: how does one show mercy to a person who fully intends to continue sinning?
Not sure how you’re getting that from a process that asks for information.
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WilliamE
Guest
Then I guess I’m confused. If they are not trying to find the truth of the situation, what are they doing?
Well, one could begin by not assuming that the person in question is sinning. Instead of a process that leaves people out in the cold due to missing witnesses, the passing of time, etc., simply ask them: “On what do you base your assertion that your previous marriage was invalid?” If the reply seems reasonable and convincing, and there is no evidence to the contrary, grant them their request for an annulment. As some on here are only too aware, it is often impossible to provide ironclad evidence as to the state of a previous marriage. Under the current system, people in that situation are just out of luck.
As I observed in an earlier post, and am repeating here for emphasis:
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7_Sorrows
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Gorgias
Guest
Not sure how you’re reading it that way. We are concerned with the truth. 7 Sorrows asked whether we were concerned that people are lying. That seems to be your (unattributed) assertion.
A divorced-and-civilly-remarried person is in an adulterous relationship. That’s an objective truth. Is that the “assumption” you’re talking about?
Umm… nullity is a legal process. Imagine your proposition in the field of civil law: “on what do you base your assertion that the defendant is guilty?” … and then allow a person unversed in the law to make their case. (That really wouldn’t work very well… wouldn’t you say?)
Remember, too, that the answer that a layperson would give would likely speak to events that occurred during the marriage. That’s not what the nullity process tries to suss out. Rather, it’s asking about a situation that exists leading up to and at the time of the marriage ceremony. Are you still sure that a person who does not have a background in canon law could give a sufficient and convincing answer? :nope:
That’s because, by the law of the Church, “marriage enjoys the favor of the law.” In other words, those who go through the Church’s process for valid marriage are presumed to be in a valid marriage. It just plain can’t be any other way – if it were, then we’d be saying that every marriage is presumed to be invalid! That’d be chaos! That’d be unsettling for the majority of folks who are married in the Church!
So… since putatively valid marriages are considered valid, then we have to have a means – an “ironclad” means, as you put it! – to establish that a previously-presumed-valid marriage is not valid.
Does that help you see the problem here? The nullity process must be rigorous, in order to protect the institution of marriage itself!
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7_Sorrows
Guest
I understand what the nullity process is about. Again I am 100% certain my marriageNot sure how you’re reading it that way. We are concerned with the truth. 7 Sorrows asked whether we were concerned that people are lying. That seems to be your (unattributed) assertion.
A divorced-and-civilly-remarried person is in an adulterous relationship. That’s an objective truth. Is that the “assumption” you’re talking about?
Umm… nullity is a legal process. Imagine your proposition in the field of civil law: “on what do you base your assertion that the defendant is guilty?” … and then allow a person unversed in the law to make their case. (That really wouldn’t work very well… wouldn’t you say?)
Remember, too, that the answer that a layperson would give would likely speak to events that occurred during the marriage. That’s not what the nullity process tries to suss out. Rather, it’s asking about a situation that exists leading up to and at the time of the marriage ceremony. Are you still sure that a person who does not have a background in canon law could give a sufficient and convincing answer? :nope:
That’s because, by the law of the Church, “marriage enjoys the favor of the law.” In other words, those who go through the Church’s process for valid marriage are presumed to be in a valid marriage. It just plain can’t be any other way – if it were, then we’d be saying that every marriage is presumed to be invalid! That’d be chaos! That’d be unsettling for the majority of folks who are married in the Church!
So… since putatively valid marriages are considered valid, then we have to have a means – an “ironclad” means, as you put it! – to establish that a previously-presumed-valid marriage is not valid.
Does that help you see the problem here? The nullity process must be rigorous, in order to protect the institution of marriage itself!
was invalid.
So what would my friend and her husband had done since they had already entered a civil marriage during the annulment process, if the tribunal had ruled his first marriage was valid. Weren’t they in a sense thumbing their nose at the tribunal entering a civil
marriage before the annulment process had concluded? Weren’t they in a sense committing adultery and how were they able to continue receiving the Sacraments?
It was over another two years after their civil marriage before the process came to an end.
Since my divorce I have remained a single mother and now a single grandmother.
My divorce took place 31 1/2 years ago. I have not remarried or had any other relationships. I entered the Church 8 1/2 years ago and have remained a Catholic in
good standing. My road has not been an easy one. I have been battling depression
for quite some time and I have not found this process healing whatsoever. Only reopening of old wounds and reawakening bad memories that I have really never
overcome.
I find it hard to believe that other second marriages outside the Catholic church are not blessed by God and He has not bestowed His graces without an annulment of their
previous marriage.
My first communication with someone after they had received my questionnaire was asking me flat out if it was true. My life has not been easy since day one. I was insulted her first communication with me would begin with this question. I think we sign one or two places what we have written is true. I came away thinking they obviously feel they are being lied to first and tough luck if you don’t have the witnesses
to prove otherwise. I felt no warmth from this woman at all. Strictly business. She
had her job to do and as far as I was concerned was doing it in a rude manner. I am sorry I have had a hard life, but I left nothing out.
So I feel genuinely sorry for anyone having to go through this process. Perhaps if I had become Catholic sooner after the divorce when more witnesses might have been available and I had not lost contact with other potential witnesses or I had lots of family members for emotional support or a fiance waiting and helping me through
the process it might be different, but I don’t.
Sorry this was so long.
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