RCIA and annulment issues

[Vico]

…I find it hard to believe that other second marriages outside the Catholic church are not blessed by God and He has not bestowed His graces without an annulment of their previous marriage…

I think this is difficult for people to understand. There are both divine law and ecclesiastical law involved.

What is invalidity? For a Catholic at the time of marriage to have a valid marriage, it must receive the approval of the Church per the canon laws. The Church has been given the power to loose and bind sin so can make certain requirements necessary. There is also divine law that must be fulfilled and it has to do with the matters which cannot be dispensed by the Church.

Who receives the sacramental graces specific to marriage? Those in a sacramental marriage (between two baptized) and only when properly disposed.

 

[KJ0706]

Indeed.

But as hard as the process is for converts, the situation is even harder when the convert’s spouse, who is non-Catholic, who does not want to be Catholic, who may object even to the spouse becoming Catholic, is the one with a prior bond – and that marriage, also to a non-Catholic, has to be adjudicated in order to regularise the subsequent union involving the person who wants to become Catholic.

In such a case, neither of the two people with the prior bond have any interest in their marital relationship being investigated or the subject of a determination by a marriage tribunal of the Catholic Church.

This is **exactly **my situation (although my spouse isn’t against me becoming Catholic at all, but she has no interest in it).

 

[Gorgias]

This is **exactly **my situation (although my spouse isn’t against me becoming Catholic at all, but she has no interest in it).

This is why you really should sit down and have a talk with your pastor. There might be the possibility of a pastoral solution that would allow you to move forward and not get caught up in a ‘Catch-22’…!

 

[otjm]

Perhaps the hardest thing for people who are applying for a decree of nullity is finding out that the Church a) absolutely intends to follow Christ, and b) the Church firmly believes and accepts Christ’s statement, that what God has brought together, no one may put asunder.

I have been around long enough to know that people get married, all too often, for any reason, and at times for no reason at all. Emotion, likely, but reason? Nope - as common sense at the time of the marriage would have said “NO WAY!” (yes, screaming it).

The church has about 2,000 years of history, and presuming we all accept that the Holy Spirit has guided it, has obtained not just a little confirmation that people may take the easy way out.

IF Christ took marriage as seriously as He did (and He did not mince words about it), then the Church is bound to take marriage seriously too.

That is not to say that the tribunal process, which Pope Francis has modified to remove the “eternity” of time it takes to process to a decision, cannot be worked on further. The other side of that coin, however, is taking the original exchange of vows seriously enough to do more than give just a lick and a promise to dining out if the parties, or at least one of them, had an impediment as of the day of the exchange of vows, sufficient that they could not form a covenant relationship.

Yes, it is intrusive. Yes, it is painful. Yes, it asks for evidence. Yes, that invades privacy.

However, we are not a community of privacy, We are a community of the Body of Christ, and that means that each and every one of us have a responsibility not just to ourselves, and to a spouse, but to both the community and to Christ.

And we have the sacrament of Reconciliation, because all of us - each and every one - are adept at breaking that responsibility in many ways. and the Church works to assure us, individually and as a community, that we do not take a solipsistic approach to what Christ said about marriage.

And that, for someone who has not been brought up in what the Church teaches about marriage, can be a bitter pill to swallow. But the Church didn’t make the rule; Christ did, and the Church, in following Christ, expresses a need to determine that the first exchange of vows did not come within Christ’s statement - that is, that it was not a covenant relationship.

It is a high standard.

But the Church did not set the standard high. Christ did. And the Church understands that not everyone exchanging vows intended, or was capable of, a covenant relationship, but it needs evidence, other than just the statement of the parties.

The process is a pain. So is finding out that the Church has not received enough evidence (or, sometimes, any evidence) that there was any impediment on that day of vows.

“Come, follow Me. My burden is light…” can sound exceedingly hollow and bereft of any mercy, be it over marriage issues, or any of the multitude of crosses we find ourselves being given. To say otherwise would be to make a lie of reality.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Perhaps the hardest thing for people who are applying for a decree of nullity is finding out that the Church a) absolutely intends to follow Christ, and b) the Church firmly believes and accepts Christ’s statement, that what God has brought together, no one may put asunder.

I have been around long enough to know that people get married, all too often, for any reason, and at times for no reason at all. Emotion, likely, but reason? Nope - as common sense at the time of the marriage would have said “NO WAY!” (yes, screaming it).

The church has about 2,000 years of history, and presuming we all accept that the Holy Spirit has guided it, has obtained not just a little confirmation that people may take the easy way out.

IF Christ took marriage as seriously as He did (and He did not mince words about it), then the Church is bound to take marriage seriously too.

That is not to say that the tribunal process, which Pope Francis has modified to remove the “eternity” of time it takes to process to a decision, cannot be worked on further. The other side of that coin, however, is taking the original exchange of vows seriously enough to do more than give just a lick and a promise to dining out if the parties, or at least one of them, had an impediment as of the day of the exchange of vows, sufficient that they could not form a covenant relationship.

Yes, it is intrusive. Yes, it is painful. Yes, it asks for evidence. Yes, that invades privacy.

However, we are not a community of privacy, We are a community of the Body of Christ, and that means that each and every one of us have a responsibility not just to ourselves, and to a spouse, but to both the community and to Christ.

And we have the sacrament of Reconciliation, because all of us - each and every one - are adept at breaking that responsibility in many ways. and the Church works to assure us, individually and as a community, that we do not take a solipsistic approach to what Christ said about marriage.

And that, for someone who has not been brought up in what the Church teaches about marriage, can be a bitter pill to swallow. But the Church didn’t make the rule; Christ did, and the Church, in following Christ, expresses a need to determine that the first exchange of vows did not come within Christ’s statement - that is, that it was not a covenant relationship.

It is a high standard.

But the Church did not set the standard high. Christ did. And the Church understands that not everyone exchanging vows intended, or was capable of, a covenant relationship, but it needs evidence, other than just the statement of the parties.

The process is a pain. So is finding out that the Church has not received enough evidence (or, sometimes, any evidence) that there was any impediment on that day of vows.

“Come, follow Me. My burden is light…” can sound exceedingly hollow and bereft of any mercy, be it over marriage issues, or any of the multitude of crosses we find ourselves being given. To say otherwise would be to make a lie of reality.

I appreciate what you have written. However, I am not even sure Christ would approve of the annulment process. I don’t know when it began, but the annulment process
was instituted by man.
If God knows and sees everything, He knows how the marriage began and ended.
He knows what led up to a marriage. He knows what brought the marriage to an end.
Speaking from experience, there is sadness and loss even when a bad marriage ends.
People who celebrate the end of a marriage, probably never took the vows seriously to
begin with.

 

[Herculees]

Unfortunately, I don’t believe any of us are qualified to answer your question.
It is best to ask your parish priest for a referral to someone qualified to answer
questions about the annulment process. I will keep you in prayer during my
holy hour Tomorrow morning (Tuesday).

 

[otjm]

I appreciate what you have written. However, I am not even sure Christ would approve of the annulment process. I don’t know when it began, but the annulment process was instituted by man.

Under the authority given to Peter, and in turn to the Church, to bind and loose.

If God knows and sees everything, He knows how the marriage began and ended. He knows what led up to a marriage. He knows what brought the marriage to an end.

However, He has been somewhat parsimonious with providing the Church with information; that is why the Church needs to investigate.

Speaking from experience, there is sadness and loss even when a bad marriage ends.

I get it. I am divorced too. And I am not suggesting otherwise. While I have heard more people say the process was cathartic (unlike Don Ruggero), it is also painful as one is dragging up all the garbage, like tearing off a scab from a fresh wound.

People who celebrate the end of a marriage, probably never took the vows seriously to begin with.

That is likely. However, what occurred after the marriage is not proof that it was not a covenant relationship; it may, or may not provide evidence to support an impediment the day of the vows.

Witnesses are needed, often because they can provide the evidence of an impediment. One or both spouses may have had an impediment as of the day of the vows; and my recollection is that the spouse is invited to participate, but it is not a requirement that they do so.

I understand the dilemma you are in, thoroughly. Your current spouse chooses not to cooperate. The advice I believe has been given - that you get a third party, preferably the priest/pastor to speak with your spouse (and you) may be the best advice possible. It may not be possible for you to convey how much you desire to enter the Church, and how important it is to you (and to your spouse, even if not interested in entering also). I am not trying to beat you up. The Church is not seeking to drag you or anyone else through a bed of hot coals. They are concerned for your salvation. The Church did not make up the rules on a whim, or because they had nothing better to do, or because of some desire to punish you for prior choices. The Church is concerned for your salvation; and they take very seriously Christ’s very plainly spoken statement of divorce. If it is a covenant marriage, then no divorce is possible (in spite of what the State says - who considers all marriages to simply be a contract, to be broken at will), and any subsequent marriage is adultery, plain and simple.

If it was not a covenant marriage, then it was no marriage at all (except for the State) and you are free to marry.

And as to how to proceed - you need to speak with your pastor. There is one alternative, which may not be one you could be open, to but if so, you could live out. But speak with your pastor, as no one here can give you any more advice.

The Church has not promised “fairness”, whatever that may mean. It has promised fidelity to Christ. And that means we all, each and every one of us, has the opportunity to carry the crosses we are given. No one promised that would be fun.

Or fair.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Under the authority given to Peter, and in turn to the Church, to bind and loose.

However, He has been somewhat parsimonious with providing the Church with information; that is why the Church needs to investigate.

I get it. I am divorced too. And I am not suggesting otherwise. While I have heard more people say the process was cathartic (unlike Don Ruggero), it is also painful as one is dragging up all the garbage, like tearing off a scab from a fresh wound.

That is likely. However, what occurred after the marriage is not proof that it was not a covenant relationship; it may, or may not provide evidence to support an impediment the day of the vows.

Witnesses are needed, often because they can provide the evidence of an impediment. One or both spouses may have had an impediment as of the day of the vows; and my recollection is that the spouse is invited to participate, but it is not a requirement that they do so.

I understand the dilemma you are in, thoroughly. Your current spouse chooses not to cooperate. The advice I believe has been given - that you get a third party, preferably the priest/pastor to speak with your spouse (and you) may be the best advice possible. It may not be possible for you to convey how much you desire to enter the Church, and how important it is to you (and to your spouse, even if not interested in entering also). I am not trying to beat you up. The Church is not seeking to drag you or anyone else through a bed of hot coals. They are concerned for your salvation. The Church did not make up the rules on a whim, or because they had nothing better to do, or because of some desire to punish you for prior choices. The Church is concerned for your salvation; and they take very seriously Christ’s very plainly spoken statement of divorce. If it is a covenant marriage, then no divorce is possible (in spite of what the State says - who considers all marriages to simply be a contract, to be broken at will), and any subsequent marriage is adultery, plain and simple.

If it was not a covenant marriage, then it was no marriage at all (except for the State) and you are free to marry.

And as to how to proceed - you need to speak with your pastor. There is one alternative, which may not be one you could be open, to but if so, you could live out. But speak with your pastor, as no one here can give you any more advice.

The Church has not promised “fairness”, whatever that may mean. It has promised fidelity to Christ. And that means we all, each and every one of us, has the opportunity to carry the crosses we are given. No one promised that would be fun.

Or fair.

I think you have me confused with the poster who started the thread. He is the one who wants to enter the Catholic church, but his spouse does not want to get her first marriage annulled and does not want to be Catholic.
I already entered the Church.
I have nothing more to add so will be unsubscribing.
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I understand what the nullity process is about. Again I am 100% certain my marriage
was invalid.
So what would my friend and her husband had done since they had already entered a civil marriage during the annulment process, if the tribunal had ruled his first marriage was valid. Weren’t they in a sense thumbing their nose at the tribunal entering a civil
marriage before the annulment process had concluded? Weren’t they in a sense committing adultery and how were they able to continue receiving the Sacraments?
It was over another two years after their civil marriage before the process came to an end.
Since my divorce I have remained a single mother and now a single grandmother.
My divorce took place 31 1/2 years ago. I have not remarried or had any other relationships. I entered the Church 8 1/2 years ago and have remained a Catholic in
good standing. My road has not been an easy one. I have been battling depression
for quite some time and I have not found this process healing whatsoever. Only reopening of old wounds and reawakening bad memories that I have really never
overcome.
I find it hard to believe that other second marriages outside the Catholic church are not blessed by God and He has not bestowed His graces without an annulment of their
previous marriage.
My first communication with someone after they had received my questionnaire was asking me flat out if it was true. My life has not been easy since day one. I was insulted her first communication with me would begin with this question. I think we sign one or two places what we have written is true. I came away thinking they obviously feel they are being lied to first and tough luck if you don’t have the witnesses
to prove otherwise. I felt no warmth from this woman at all. Strictly business. She
had her job to do and as far as I was concerned was doing it in a rude manner. I am sorry I have had a hard life, but I left nothing out.
So I feel genuinely sorry for anyone having to go through this process. Perhaps if I had become Catholic sooner after the divorce when more witnesses might have been available and I had not lost contact with other potential witnesses or I had lots of family members for emotional support or a fiance waiting and helping me through
the process it might be different, but I don’t.
Sorry this was so long.

I am sorry you have unsubscribed. I hope you will read what I write.

You are like the poster-child of what Pope Francis talks about when he says our current system has failed…failed the Church and failed the people. Your experiences are about what he wants done differently and is moving the Church toward.

The need for discernment that is actual and effectual and that moves beyond where we sadly are now.

The need for pastoral accompaniment that is real and actual and not in name only and not simply bureaucratic process.

An interaction that is marked by the attributes which one reads in the Gospels…and not simply the rote of a canonical procedures manual.

I give thanks to God for Pope Francis every single day. I give thanks for the initiatives and insights and pastoral instincts that are his. In that, he is like Saint John XXIII letting in fresh air. I wish he would open every window, personally; they urgently need to be opened as they were in the time of John.

Like you, I am genuinely sorry for people who go through this, too…above all when they emerge from the process, at whatever stage they emerge and with whatever result [or lack thereof] they emerge with feeling that they were only a file folder and a dossier in the hands of functionaries rather than having the experience that Mary Magdalene or Peter had as the Lord lifted them up from brokenenss to healing and reconciled them to Himself.

 

[otjm]

I think you have me confused with the poster who started the thread. He is the one who wants to enter the Catholic church, but his spouse does not want to get her first marriage annulled and does not want to be Catholic.
I already entered the Church.
I have nothing more to add so will be unsubscribing.
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I thought I was answering your last post, but perhaps in doing so I crossed the two posts over.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I am sorry you have unsubscribed. I hope you will read what I write.

You are like the poster-child of what Pope Francis talks about when he says our current system has failed…failed the Church and failed the people. Your experiences are about what he wants done differently and is moving the Church toward.

The need for discernment that is actual and effectual and that moves beyond where we sadly are now.

The need for pastoral accompaniment that is real and actual and not in name only and not simply bureaucratic process.

An interaction that is marked by the attributes which one reads in the Gospels…and not simply the rote of a canonical procedures manual.

I give thanks to God for Pope Francis every single day. I give thanks for the initiatives and insights and pastoral instincts that are his. In that, he is like Saint John XXIII letting in fresh air. I wish he would open every window, personally; they urgently need to be opened as they were in the time of John.

Like you, I am genuinely sorry for people who go through this, too…above all when they emerge from the process, at whatever stage they emerge and with whatever result [or lack thereof] they emerge with feeling that they were only a file folder and a dossier in the hands of functionaries rather than having the experience that Mary Magdalene or Peter had as the Lord lifted them up from brokenenss to healing and reconciled them to Himself.

Even though I unsubscribed I still received a notification to this thread in my inbox so I did read your reply. I am thankful you have had the experience to understand what
I have been through in the process and continue to go through. Your last paragraph
is spot on!

I also am thankful to Pope Francis and I feel he probably would like to do more, but I believe
he has to take baby steps in the way of reforms.

Thank you for your posts.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I thought I was answering your last post, but perhaps in doing so I crossed the two posts over.

I think you were replying to my posts until your paragraph beginning ‘I understand your
dilemma…’
Then I believe it refers to the poster who started the thread.
I am unsubscribing because I feel like I took over the thread with my own situation and
opinions and overshadowed the OP and his question. I do apologize.

 

[Joe_5859]

Even though I unsubscribed I still received a notification to this thread in my inbox so I did read your reply. I am thankful you have had the experience to understand what
I have been through in the process and continue to go through. Your last paragraph
is spot on!

I also am thankful to Pope Francis and I feel he probably would like to do more, but I believe
he has to take baby steps in the way of reforms.

Thank you for your posts.

I do believe that more reform will come. But it will take time. Perhaps more time than we would like. There’s a lot involved to think through and sort through. And a lot of people involved in the process.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I do believe that more reform will come. But it will take time. Perhaps more time than we would like. There’s a lot involved to think through and sort through. And a lot of people involved in the process.

I agree. I was trying to find some history on annulments in the Catholic Church and it seems the process might have been used mainly by kings early on. There is a lot to
think through and sort through. Unfortunately, the Church does not move quickly and, sadly, there probably are many souls that will slip through the cracks in the meantime.

 

[Joe_5859]

I agree. I was trying to find some history on annulments in the Catholic Church and it seems the process might have been used mainly by kings early on. There is a lot to
think through and sort through. Unfortunately, the Church does not move quickly and, sadly, there probably are many souls that will slip through the cracks in the meantime.

That’s when I realize how important and necessary the mercy of God is. To think that Jesus entrusted the keys of the Kingdom and the salvation of souls to human beings is simultaneously humbling and terrifying. His Spirit is there to guide, of course, but—and this might just be my own anecdotal experience from working within a variety of Catholic places—people still mess things up. We are all sinners. And we are all limited human beings with various weaknesses. I have seen how traumatic it can be for some to hear just an ill-conceived comment or lack of a return email from a priest of other Church employee. I try to remember to pray for mercy daily for myself and also those who may have been driven further away from the Lord through my action or inaction. I can’t see how it works without that mercy.

Sometimes, it makes me wonder what God is thinking entrusting such high stakes propositions with eternal consequences to us weak human beings. But that is when I remind myself that His ways are higher than my ways and that He won’t give anyone the short end of the stick when it comes to Judgment Day. His grace and mercy will supply all we need to overcome. Even when we don’t readily see it all the time.

 

[KJ0706]

Quick update: my first wife was Catholic but we had a civil ceremony so it looks like my side can be handled with a “Lack of Form” proceedure. Much quicker (6 weeks) than a full annulment.

My current wife is still resistant, but I’m hoping to help her come around. I think it’s more about embarassment and what she views as (rightfully) private info. Also having the Church interrogate her parents and friends regarding an old marriage doesn’t sit well.

Still praying, still continuing with RCIA (Rite of Welcoming in two weeks).

Thanks for all the help and advice.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Quick update: my first wife was Catholic but we had a civil ceremony so it looks like my side can be handled with a “Lack of Form” proceedure. Much quicker (6 weeks) than a full annulment.

My current wife is still resistant, but I’m hoping to help her come around. I think it’s more about embarassment and what she views as (rightfully) private info. Also having the Church interrogate her parents and friends regarding an old marriage doesn’t sit well.

Still praying, still continuing with RCIA (Rite of Welcoming in two weeks).

Thanks for all the help and advice.

Glad you are continuing! Praying it works out.
So are you and your wife expected to live as brother and sister or how does that work out?

 

[7_Sorrows]

That’s when I realize how important and necessary the mercy of God is. To think that Jesus entrusted the keys of the Kingdom and the salvation of souls to human beings is simultaneously humbling and terrifying. His Spirit is there to guide, of course, but—and this might just be my own anecdotal experience from working within a variety of Catholic places—people still mess things up. We are all sinners. And we are all limited human beings with various weaknesses. I have seen how traumatic it can be for some to hear just an ill-conceived comment or lack of a return email from a priest of other Church employee. I try to remember to pray for mercy daily for myself and also those who may have been driven further away from the Lord through my action or inaction. I can’t see how it works without that mercy.

Sometimes, it makes me wonder what God is thinking entrusting such high stakes propositions with eternal consequences to us weak human beings. But that is when I remind myself that His ways are higher than my ways and that He won’t give anyone the short end of the stick when it comes to Judgment Day. His grace and mercy will supply all we need to overcome. Even when we don’t readily see it all the time.

I don’t know what the answer is, but I read in 2006 27, 000 annulments were done in the U. S. alone - 49, 000 worldwide. I would like to know out of all those what percentage was granted the declaration of nullity and which were not. I realize each case is different.

 

[buc_fan33]

One other thing to think about regarding the invasion of privacy. In my (albeit limited) experience in handling annulment cases, sometimes, though certainly not always, I’ve actually found it to be a very healing process for people. Many have written about opening up old wounds. Sometimes, it’s bad to open up an old wound, but in the medical field, sometimes it’s also necessary. For instance, if a cut does not heal properly and gets infected, the right course of action may be to make another incision and treat the infection so the cut has a chance to heal properly. I’ve found that often times these old wounds of the heart that get buried actually need to be brough to light, to the Divine Physician, so He can heal them. Certainly, that process can be painful, but if some of these wounds are not healed, they can wreak havoc on a person and on his or her current marriage.

 

[otjm]

I don’t know what the answer is, but I read in 2006 27, 000 annulments were done in the U. S. alone - 49, 000 worldwide. I would like to know out of all those what percentage was granted the declaration of nullity and which were not. I realize each case is different.

Some time ago, CARA did a survey of divorced Catholics. From that survey, they reported that 7% of divorced Catholics had received a decree of nullity, and 8% had not.

From the 8%, the span was from those who started the process and dropped out somewhere along the line (interview with pastor/other individual; started paperwork and did not proceed, proceeded and withdrew, or had a presentation to the tribunal; or had a split between tribunals).

Which leaves 855 of divorced Catholics not even starting the process.

This was several years ago. CARA has a website; but over time, there has been less available to find on the website. Currently, they note the number of people starting the process of requesting a decree of nullity, but it is not clear how that is determined; I would presume official filings with a tribunal. They are not reporting on the website the number of decrees granted.

In the past there has been horror expressed by some given the number of decrees granted. Coupled with that has been statements both by John Paul 2 and Benedict 16 that there have been too many cases which they felt were improperly granted.

Without intending to impune either of their comments, the number of decrees granted has been going down for a long time. Coupled with that is a) most people don’t relaize the number of actual divorces of first marriages among Catholics; and b) the impact of poor, sloppy, and outrageous catechesis starting shortly after Vatican 2 in which the nature of sacraments was lost in the chatter of “love one another”; and c) the phenomenal impact of a secular media upon Catholics.

In any event, it would appear that most tribunals have followed the advice coming from Rome, coupled with a) people simply leaving the Church (and so having no interest in a decree of nullity), and b) to a degree, cases having been heard and decided by those who still attend Mass.

As I don’t know the source of your information, nor whether it was tribunal filings or decrees granted, I can’t respond much. My suspicion is that may be the number granted, but that is only a suspicion.