RCIA and annulment issues

[CradleJourney]

I am sorry you have unsubscribed. I hope you will read what I write.

You are like the poster-child of what Pope Francis talks about when he says our current system has failed…failed the Church and failed the people. Your experiences are about what he wants done differently and is moving the Church toward.

The need for discernment that is actual and effectual and that moves beyond where we sadly are now.

The need for pastoral accompaniment that is real and actual and not in name only and not simply bureaucratic process.

An interaction that is marked by the attributes which one reads in the Gospels…and not simply the rote of a canonical procedures manual.

I give thanks to God for Pope Francis every single day. I give thanks for the initiatives and insights and pastoral instincts that are his. In that, he is like Saint John XXIII letting in fresh air. I wish he would open every window, personally; they urgently need to be opened as they were in the time of John.

Like you, I am genuinely sorry for people who go through this, too…above all when they emerge from the process, at whatever stage they emerge and with whatever result [or lack thereof] they emerge with feeling that they were only a file folder and a dossier in the hands of functionaries rather than having the experience that Mary Magdalene or Peter had as the Lord lifted them up from brokenenss to healing and reconciled them to Himself.

Don Ruggero - Thank you for writing this. It touches on some personal struggles I have experienced in this area and it truly helps to know someone “gets it”. A person who’s never dealt with one of these questionnaires or had a loved one need to deal with one may not grasp how horrid it is to be expected to type up one’s deepest emotions and private issues then send them off blindly by mail or email to a group of people you have never seen, never spoken too, know nothing about, and know they know nothing at all of you except what you’ve typed - and for those of us with experience in online communications, we well know how easily it is for something to be misunderstood.

Again, my thanks for your recognition of the flaws in the current system and I join in prayer for continued reflection and discernment on prudent improvements in the near future.

CJ

 

[Gorgias]

It touches on some personal struggles I have experienced in this area and it truly helps to know someone “gets it”. A person who’s never dealt with one of these questionnaires or had a loved one need to deal with one may not grasp how horrid it is to be expected to type up one’s deepest emotions and private issues then send them off blindly by mail or email to a group of people you have never seen, never spoken too, know nothing about, and know they know nothing at all of you except what you’ve typed - and for those of us with experience in online communications, we well know how easily it is for something to be misunderstood.

Again, my thanks for your recognition of the flaws in the current system and I join in prayer for continued reflection and discernment on prudent improvements in the near future.

CJ,

Great post!

Here’s my question, though: what would you do to improve the system? I mean, you speak eloquently about sending your questionnaire off to others whom you never see. But, what might you suggest as an alternative? Would it really be easier to ask you to travel to your diocesan tribunal, so that you could sit down with someone and tell your story? (Wouldn’t the complaint then be “they made me sit down in an office with someone I never saw before, and face-to-face, tell them my deepest emotions and private issues!”…?)

On one hand, it seems to me that people are railing against the process, when what they really are unhappy with is the Church’s doctrine regarding marriage. If we can’t find a way to suggest changing the process without changing what the process tries to discover, then it’s really the belief system we want to change.

And please don’t just dismiss me with a “you don’t know unless you are forced to go through it yourself” … I’m one of those who found the process cathartic.

 

[Gorgias]

Quick update: my first wife was Catholic but we had a civil ceremony so it looks like my side can be handled with a “Lack of Form” proceedure. Much quicker (6 weeks) than a full annulment.

Great news!

(To tell the truth, I was hoping for just such a discovery when I kept advising “go talk to your pastor!”… but honestly, I was hoping you’d find that this was the case with your current wife’s first husband. It’s exactly these kinds of details that must be sought in each case which is why it’s impossible to give generic advice over the internet. And, of course, no one wants to give false hope to someone, just to have it dashed.)

Still praying, still continuing with RCIA (Rite of Welcoming in two weeks).

Even greater news!

I’ll be praying for ya’ll!

 

[7_Sorrows]

CJ,

Great post!

Here’s my question, though: what would you do to improve the system? I mean, you speak eloquently about sending your questionnaire off to others whom you never see. But, what might you suggest as an alternative? Would it really be easier to ask you to travel to your diocesan tribunal, so that you could sit down with someone and tell your story? (Wouldn’t the complaint then be “they made me sit down in an office with someone I never saw before, and face-to-face, tell them my deepest emotions and private issues!”…?)

On one hand, it seems to me that people are railing against the process, when what they really are unhappy with is the Church’s doctrine regarding marriage. If we can’t find a way to suggest changing the process without changing what the process tries to discover, then it’s really the belief system we want to change.

And please don’t just dismiss me with a “you don’t know unless you are forced to go through it yourself” … I’m one of those who found the process cathartic.

Please don’t turn this around and blame us because we don’t have an idea how to change the process. As Don Ruggero stated, a complete overhaul of the process is needed.

 

[Gorgias]

Please don’t turn this around and blame us because we don’t have an idea how to change the process. As Don Ruggero stated, a complete overhaul of the process is needed.

No blame; just a question. If you feel wronged by the process, what would you suggest in order to make the process better (while still maintaining what the process is attempting to discover)?

 

[Horton]

Please don’t turn this around and blame us because we don’t have an idea how to change the process. As Don Ruggero stated, a complete overhaul of the process is needed.

I think it’s a fair question. There was no blame in Gorgias question. What would a “complete overhaul of the process” look like? The doctrine can’t be changed, so what can be?

The Church needs certain information to process a marriage case. What can be changed in order to gather that information?

 

[Horton]

Quick update: my first wife was Catholic but we had a civil ceremony so it looks like my side can be handled with a “Lack of Form” proceedure. Much quicker (6 weeks) than a full annulment.

My current wife is still resistant, but I’m hoping to help her come around. I think it’s more about embarassment and what she views as (rightfully) private info. Also having the Church interrogate her parents and friends regarding an old marriage doesn’t sit well.

Still praying, still continuing with RCIA (Rite of Welcoming in two weeks).

Thanks for all the help and advice.

Great news! Would your wife be willing to sit down with an advocate to help explain the process? No one is going to interrogate anyone, the tribunal just gathers information. That information doesn’t go anywhere except in a tribunal file, as in it is handled as confidential information. Advocates may not talk to anyone regarding what is in the file. Even in your situation, an advocate for your wife would not be able to talk to you about her case.

 

[ffg]

It’s great that the OP’s situation seems to be moving along.

The array of experiences with annulments is as wide as east to west. The process can seem like a cross as heavy as Jesus’, or be a quick painless process.

A family member was ‘lucky’ (however much luck comes with the pain of being tricked) that the annulment went quick because as it seems, the guy faked the whole thing to not be sent to his home country as his paperwork was timing out.

There have been some good ‘church perspective’ posts with good info.

I’m sure processes can be improved.

It’s good to consider since we can get lost and frustrated with the work involved and the sinners that do the work, the effort made by the Church is on behalf of the annulment seeker.

Does anyone know a site with any statistics on annulments? Since they can take years, I’m guessing there are not annual reports. Not sure if there is anything on % of invalid marriages found per total # of annulment efforts for a given period.

 

[7_Sorrows]

It’s great that the OP’s situation seems to be moving along.

The array of experiences with annulments is as wide as east to west. The process can seem like a cross as heavy as Jesus’, or be a quick painless process.

A family member was ‘lucky’ (however much luck comes with the pain of being tricked) that the annulment went quick because as it seems, the guy faked the whole thing to not be sent to his home country as his paperwork was timing out.

There have been some good ‘church perspective’ posts with good info.

I’m sure processes can be improved.

It’s good to consider since we can get lost and frustrated with the work involved and the sinners that do the work, the effort made by the Church is on behalf of the annulment seeker.

Does anyone know a site with any statistics on annulments? Since they can take years, I’m guessing there are not annual reports. Not sure if there is anything on % of invalid marriages found per total # of annulment efforts for a given period.

See post #80. It has a little bit of information on this.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think it’s a fair question. There was no blame in Gorgias question. What would a “complete overhaul of the process” look like? The doctrine can’t be changed, so what can be?

The Church needs certain information to process a marriage case. What can be changed in order to gather that information?

And I would just add that I don’t think anyone expects anyone on this thread to have the perfect alternate solution ready to roll off their tongue and fix the annulment process overnight. But the question does need to be asked, and I think it’s important for those who have gone/are going through the process to provide their feedback in order for the process to actually improve.

Not that this thread is the ideal place for such a conversation to take place. But, for change to happen, some people are going to need to think it through and share those thoughts with those responsible for the shape of the process.

 

[Gorgias]

Not that this thread is the ideal place for such a conversation to take place. But, for change to happen, some people are going to need to think it through and share those thoughts with those responsible for the shape of the process.

Good point. Mind if I start a new thread, asking the question and asking folks to think through what their suggestions might be?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

On one hand, it seems to me that people are railing against the process, when what they really are unhappy with is the Church’s doctrine regarding marriage. If we can’t find a way to suggest changing the process without changing what the process tries to discover, then it’s really the belief system we want to change.

And please don’t just dismiss me with a “you don’t know unless you are forced to go through it yourself” … I’m one of those who found the process cathartic.

I don’t think 7 Sorrows herself thinks this, but other posters do seem to think that the whole process is a pointless waste of time, and that the Church should just bow to “reality” and allow for divorce and remarriage like the Orthodox do. Or at least treat “divorce and remarriage” as a one-time sin such as murder than can easily be forgiven in the confessional. Or at least come up with a streamlined process for converts, perhaps operating under the assumption that “all non-Catholics marriages are invalid unless proven otherwise”.

I also sense a reluctance to accept the authority of the Church to “bind and loose”. Both in the “annulments are too difficult, the Church needs to reform the process” and the “annulments are too easy, the Church needs to stop rubber-stamping annulments” camps.

 

[Joe_5859]

Good point. Mind if I start a new thread, asking the question and asking folks to think through what their suggestions might be?

I think that’s a good idea.

My point was that any thread on CAF wasn’t likely to reach the Vatican and effect any change, but I do think it would make for a good thread conversation to have.

 

[7_Sorrows]

And I would just add that I don’t think anyone expects anyone on this thread to have the perfect alternate solution ready to roll off their tongue and fix the annulment process overnight. But the question does need to be asked, and I think it’s important for those who have gone/are going through the process to provide their feedback in order for the process to actually improve.

Not that this thread is the ideal place for such a conversation to take place. But, for change to happen, some people are going to need to think it through and share those thoughts with those responsible for the shape of the process.

I agree and I did share a couple of ideas earlier but I am not going to go back through all the posts and find it.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I think that’s a good idea.

My point was that any thread on CAF wasn’t likely to reach the Vatican and effect any change, but I do think it would make for a good thread conversation to have.

That would be a good idea.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I think it’s a fair question. There was no blame in Gorgias question. What would a “complete overhaul of the process” look like? The doctrine can’t be changed, so what can be?

The Church needs certain information to process a marriage case. What can be changed in order to gather that information?

Maybe the word judge is better than blame.

 

[Gorgias]

Maybe the word judge is better than blame.

Nope; not judging you, either.

Just asking a simple question (which I’ve also started a new thread to discuss): what would you suggest, in order to improve the process, while retaining the (canonically imposed) goals that it must implement?

 

[ffg]

We had quite a few different annulment experiences with RCIA folks this year, which just finished up Tuesday.

There was a lot of sharing about different situations, would have been good to ask for suggestions per their experiences. I’ll note for next year, if the discussion arises.

My close family member was such a rare (odd?) situation, they wouldn’t have much to consider changing the experience, I would guess.

 

[CradleJourney]

CJ,

Great post!

Here’s my question, though: what would you do to improve the system? I mean, you speak eloquently about sending your questionnaire off to others whom you never see. But, what might you suggest as an alternative? Would it really be easier to ask you to travel to your diocesan tribunal, so that you could sit down with someone and tell your story? (Wouldn’t the complaint then be “they made me sit down in an office with someone I never saw before, and face-to-face, tell them my deepest emotions and private issues!”…?)

On one hand, it seems to me that people are railing against the process, when what they really are unhappy with is the Church’s doctrine regarding marriage. If we can’t find a way to suggest changing the process without changing what the process tries to discover, then it’s really the belief system we want to change.

And please don’t just dismiss me with a “you don’t know unless you are forced to go through it yourself” … I’m one of those who found the process cathartic.

Yes. I think it would be phenomenally easier for many to either go sit down with someone and tell the story, turn in documentation, etc. Would you feel better about making a confession by writing it down and sending it in under the promise that whoever ends up reading it will keep it confidential and will get back to you at some point in the future - or do you feel better about going in and having a personal interaction with the priest and getting either an answer (absolution) or an explanation of why it cannot be given at this time but how to reach that point?

You say that people are unhappy with the Church’s doctrine. Shouldn’t this be a case for specially trained priests or real advocates to help them see why the Church’s doctrine is right? And honestly - except for family members who are absolutely convinced that they were excommunicated the moment they divorced, I’ve only had experience with those upset by the process - not the teaching. Explained calmly and supportively (I’ve done it many times), most people understand fairly quickly and get that it’s a necessary step. It’s the ice-cold, impersonal method that throws them off.

CJ

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Yes. I think it would be phenomenally easier for many to either go sit down with someone and tell the story, turn in documentation, etc. Would you feel better about making a confession by writing it down and sending it in under the promise that whoever ends up reading it will keep it confidential and will get back to you at some point in the future - or do you feel better about going in and having a personal interaction with the priest and getting either an answer (absolution) or an explanation of why it cannot be given at this time but how to reach that point?

You say that people are unhappy with the Church’s doctrine. Shouldn’t this be a case for specially trained priests or real advocates to help them see why the Church’s doctrine is right? And honestly - except for family members who are absolutely convinced that they were excommunicated the moment they divorced, I’ve only had experience with those upset by the process - not the teaching. Explained calmly and supportively (I’ve done it many times), most people understand fairly quickly and get that it’s a necessary step. It’s the ice-cold, impersonal method that throws them off.

CJ

In fact, you are speaking – for those of us who actually do these cases – of the perception of us who do this work as the need to be viewed, perceived, as actual pastors…as shepherds of the lambs entrusted to our care by the Good Shepherd…rather than simply as functionaries of Canon Law. Much more of the former and much less of the latter needs to come through, frankly. Which is what Pope Francis has been demanding…rightly.

Whatever title I hold by the grace of His Excellency, the diocesan Bishop, I am ever conscious that my vocation is as a priest, a physician of souls, and a shepherd of the flock far more than it is being an officer of an ecclesiastical court who is executing a juridical function under canon law.