RCIA and "discernment"

[HandyAndy]

The “obstacles” with the RCIA course?

From previous posts, I get the impression that these people have not been given a clear outline of the course, its duration and objectives…with most sounding more like they’ve just lost $50, and had to stand in a queue for the privilege…rather then having found the resting place of the true presence of Christ…literally. To be in the actual presence of Christ. For a Protestant…this is a big thing. Now to prove it?

The real presence is probably the hardest thing for people to get their head around and it is often the main objection raised against the Catholic church. So start here. Win this one and the rest will pretty much be a stroll in the park. For if all Catholics truly believed this…I would struggle to find a seat at Mass. So what’s gone wrong?
I believe that this aspect has been played down within the schools, families and in some Churches. It is assumed knowledge and rarely will you hear it spoken about with such passion as to see eye’s well with emotion.

During my RCIA course we were requested to attend an ecumenical gathering where people of all denominations could ask questions of the Catholic Priests. One of the questions was “why couldn’t all those who believed in Christ and from other religions be able to share in Holy Communion within the Catholic church?”
The answer was to the effect that whilst ever there was disagreements within the different religions, it wouldn’t be right for us all to sit at the Lords table and share the same meal.
Why not just come out and profess the real presence in the Eucharist? Why dance around the issue? It was played down.
I remember thinking at the time, so what’s the big deal.

The Scott Hahn conversion story. Told from my and other Protestant perspectives. He identified with where we were at…and were coming from.
Not lesser then those mightier then thou Catholics…but equal/universal/Catholic followers of Christs teachings that needed only to come a little further to receive what Christ wanted us all to have…the gifts that had been left for all of us in the sacraments. The hand of God at work, gathering his sheep.

I have a son in law going through the same thing. The first Priest we approached said he didn’t run the RCIA course. The next failed to get in contact…twice. On the fourth attempt with yet another Priest…success! Does it really need to be this difficult? And again he is left wondering when, how long, what else? Once again he sits at Mass, denied that which Christ longs for him to have. That which many young Catholics couldn’t care less about. Full communion. Christ working from the inside out.

Come on! Give them a time frame and something to plan around and look forward to. This is exciting and I imagine that the sacred heart glows at the prospect. I remember what it was like as a father when my children would run to greet me at the door. My heart glowed as well.

 

[HandyAndy]

I would like to add that the RCIA course and acceptance into the Catholic Church is all a part of life’s journey with Christ. He has led me to this point and my journey continues with Christ at its center. I will never know every dogma, ruling or teaching of the church…however I do know where to find them or how to look them up. At every Mass the scriptures are read and explained. I may never be able to recite the Nicene Creed off the top of my head or pray the Rosary without a guide. My learned journey is not yet at its end.

I am but a humble servant.

The one thing…above all else…that makes me a “Catholic”…is the adoration of the Eucharist.
Nothing else matters…and yet…everything matters. The poor, the helpless, the homeless, right, wrong, just, unjust…Conscience.

If I could parrot off every piece of scripture, every piece of historical fact about the church, or name every pope in order of papacy…It would not make me Catholic. Only the Eucharist makes me Catholic…and I know I am home.

" I will abide in you, and you in me".

The Eucharist shapes us…guides us and writes upon our very hearts and minds.

IMHO…The Eucharist should be the very focus of every RCIA course. The Eucharist is the key…Christ will take care of the rest.

 

[HandyAndy]

I feel it necessary to post the following references for anyone thinking about or entering the RCIA course. This IMHO is required viewing and I commend it to you.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0088.html

catholicspiritualdirection.org/catalinarivas.html

and

youshallbelieve.com/?page_id=483

 

[Arrowsmith1994]

I am a RCIA drop out and then I studied Catholicism on my own and re-joined RCIA six years later. Now I am on our parish RCIA team. I can say that RCIA team members are usually well meaning volunteers. I have been Catholic now for 11 years and have been a full time RCIA volunteer for 7 years. RCIA is very flexible so you can move from parish to parish and get different interpretations and implentations of the Rite. One important reason to have a significant period of discernment is that people need a chance to live out being Catholic before they actually are Catholic. We live in a very, very anti-Catholic society (USA) and sometimes people don’t realize how anti-Cathollic their friends and family are until they announce that they are going to join the Catholic Church. The depth of anti-Catholicism is a very uncomfortable thing to speak about. I believe many cradle Catholics are unaware of how deep it runs, and priests, who usually do know how deep it is, are very hesitant to speak about it.

Also, Protestants are taught wildly erroneous things about Catholicism and sometimes it takes some time to uncover and correct these errors. A RCIA team does not have some error detector so they can correct all misconceptions in one week. It takes time making the faith journey with someone to help them work these things out. I believe that it should take around six months for a baptized person to be catechized accurately, have errors corrected, and become accustomed to the Catholic way of life. It is no small decision to join the Catholic Church. For those who are given much, much is expected…

So my advice to you is to hang in there, don’t get discouraged. It should not take longer than this coming Easter 2014. If it went past that time, I would say that there was a problem.

 

[eggsbenedictine]

HandyAndy, I couldn’t agree more, with every single thing you’re saying. What a sad thing RCIA is. It should be one of joy and pleasure of having discovered the fullness of the Truth and becoming apart of that. Instead, you have people who were born into the faith and really know very little about it catechizing you. They take what they have for granted and are very apprehensive and lethargic towards you becoming a member of their church. Most of them are utterly annoyed with the excitement and enthusiasm you have for their church and her teachings. Just like you said, it almost seems they’d rather throw obstacles in your way than help you along your journey. I am counting the days.

 

[PJM]

=eggsbenedictine;11003566]HandyAndy, I couldn’t agree more, with every single thing you’re saying. What a sad thing RCIA is. It should be one of joy and pleasure of having discovered the fullness of the Truth and becoming apart of that. Instead, you have people who were born into the faith and really know very little about it catechizing you. They take what they have for granted and are very apprehensive and lethargic towards you becoming a member of their church. Most of them are utterly annoyed with the excitement and enthusiasm you have for their church and her teachings. Just like you said, it almost seems they’d rather throw obstacles in your way than help you along your journey. I am counting the days.

My dear FRIEND in Christ

I must take exception to your agreed to position.

Certainly there ARE RCIA teachers as you describe. BUT there are a GREAT many very qualified and enthusistic teachers as well. I WAS ONE OF THEM

I don’t disagree with the “state” of RCIA programs nationally and would dearly love to see this AS IT SHOULD and NEEDS to be, a much higher priority within our church! PASTORS of SOULS should be involved personally at least on a montly basis to insure that The CATHOLIC Faith is actually being taught.

I do caution all however to attempt to be more specific and avoid gereralities, that ofthen do not apply:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

AND if either of you have any questions feeel free to “PM” me and I will gladly discuss the issues with you.

Patrick [PJM] here on CAF

 

[eggsbenedictine]

My dear FRIEND in Christ

I must take exception to your agreed to position.

Certainly there ARE RCIA teachers as you describe. BUT there are a GREAT many very qualified and enthusistic teachers as well. I WAS ONE OF THEM

I don’t disagree with the “state” of RCIA programs nationally and would dearly love to see this AS IT SHOULD and NEEDS to be, a much higher priority within our church! PASTORS of SOULS should be involved personally at least on a montly basis to insure that The CATHOLIC Faith is actually being taught.

I do caution all however to attempt to be more specific and avoid gereralities, that ofthen do not apply:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

AND if either of you have any questions feeel free to “PM” me and I will gladly discuss the issues with you.

Patrick [PJM] here on CAF

I apologize for not being more specific, as obviously not all RCIA programs are run poorly, etc. I should’ve been more specific about my particular experience. No doubt that there are great ones out there doing good things for people making their way home.

 

[HandyAndy]

Unfortunately PJM we do not know you…or probably countless others who are, or have been involved with the RCIA program. This makes it impracticable and unfair to speak on specifics pertaining to each and every RCIA coordinators program. So we are left with generalities. It is not directed at you personally, although I understand your position. We all become defensive when something we are passionate about falls under attack.
Thus we give account of our own personal experiences, or give voice to our feelings with regard to the programs we have encountered. As you so rightly agree…

“I don’t disagree with the “state” of RCIA programs nationally and would dearly love to see this AS IT SHOULD and NEEDS to be, a much higher priority within our church!”

The Scot Hahn conversion is an interesting read, as in the beginning you have a very strong Protestant, evangelizing Catholics. His journey to the Catholic church started from probably one of the most prejudiced that you could have. Educated prejudice! His journey didn’t start six or twelve months out from entering the RCIA program. As I stated earlier…this is something that we have thought about and researched for quite some time. It is a major thing to admit that one is wrong and do an about face. The impact on family and other Prodo’s that move within your circle will be huge.
The other interesting part of the story is how it became about him. Not so much the church, the RCIA course, his family and even his career. It was his calling to be in full communion with Christ. You can feel the passion in his desire to move into the welcoming arms of Christ. As only a fathers embrace can give. He had found the real presence…he was home.

The other interesting point of interest is with the “hard nosed” Mike Willesee journalist and his interviews or talks on the real presence. He has been humbled with his encounters and at times his voice trembles with emotion as he conveys his experiences and journey back to Christ in the Catholic faith.

The Catalina writings are once again, an emotional read of just how much we are loved. Christ waits patiently in the tabernacle every day for his children. Just for a visit. Just to sit a while. How often do we simply just visit? Catalina quotes Jesus as being asked how long he stays after each mass. He answered…“It is you who leave me.”

It is all just inspiring. The Catholic faith is not so much taught…but felt. It is witnessed, experienced and stimulates our thoughts and emotions. All from being in the presence of a father who loves us.

Just such an incredible gift!

 

[jmcrae]

I apologize for not being more specific, as obviously not all RCIA programs are run poorly, etc. I should’ve been more specific about my particular experience. No doubt that there are great ones out there doing good things for people making their way home.

I am also coordinating RCIA - I am coming into my third year of actually being the Coordinator, and from this side of the fence, it’s very challenging because the participants have particular ideas in their mind about what should happen (ie: instant Sacraments and a fast but intense Catechism course that provides a Theology degree in six weeks), and the Pastor has ideas about what he would like to see (2 years of intensive boot-camp on what you are allowed to touch and what you must keep your hands off of, before they come anywhere near his Altar), the Volunteers, who work very hard and who are often unfairly maligned, and then you have the volunteers who blurt out all kinds of things that make no sense whatsoever, even though you have a very strict interview process and you try really hard to choose volunteers who are orthodox in every way, and the Sponsors, who heard about something in another parish possibly on a different planet somewhere, where everything is so much better organized, with nine-course meals and wine served at every meeting, and where the quality of the Catechumens is not so poor, and they don’t allow divorced people or Protestants; why do we have so many divorced people and Protestants in our RCIA anyway I’m not working with them I want a nice married lady with children who comes from a good Catholic family but just didn’t happen to get baptized I don’t want anyone who’s going to be difficult to work with.

Anyway - it is what it is, and nobody ever gets what they want, but hopefully they all get what they need; that’s all we can really hope for.

 

[HandyAndy]

(2 years of intensive boot-camp on what you are allowed to touch and what you must keep your hands off of, before they come anywhere near his Altar)

lol

Think I might know this one.

Your post highlights how quickly we all…everyone of us…can get so focused and caught up in the everything else about the church…and miss the most important thing about the church.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae;11004527:

(2 years of intensive boot-camp on what you are allowed to touch and what you must keep your hands off of, before they come anywhere near his Altar)

lol

Think I might know this one.

Your post highlights how quickly we all…everyone of us…can get so focused and caught up in the everything else about the church…and miss the most important thing about the church.

A couple of years ago I was working with a priest who was upset that one of the candidates from a previous year (not mine) didn’t know what was being asked for when he was asked to fetch an extra ciborium; he brought back a paten, instead.

I am diligent about teaching our Candidates the names of the various objects in the Church, but I have a feeling most of them don’t retain the information, and I rather doubt that most RCIAs get into the level of detail where they are distinguishing between the ciborium and the paten - unless you are an Altar Server or a Sacristan, it’s not information you would use on a regular basis.

 

[Joannm]

A couple of years ago I was working with a priest who was upset that one of the candidates from a previous year (not mine) didn’t know what was being asked for when he was asked to fetch an extra ciborium; he brought back a paten, instead.

I am diligent about teaching our Candidates the names of the various objects in the Church, but I have a feeling most of them don’t retain the information, and I rather doubt that most RCIAs get into the level of detail where they are distinguishing between the ciborium and the paten - unless you are an Altar Server or a Sacristan, it’s not information you would use on a regular basis.

Most cradle Catholics in an average parish don’t know the difference between a paten and a ciborium.

 

[PJM]

=eggsbenedictine;11004405]I apologize for not being more specific, as obviously not all RCIA programs are run poorly, etc. I should’ve been more specific about my particular experience. No doubt that there are great ones out there doing good things for people making their way home.

Thank you,

“Humility is the ONE essential virtue to getting to heaven”
Father John A. Hardon S J

Continued Blessings

 

[PJM]

=Joannm;11005265]Most cradle Catholics in an average parish don’t know the difference between a paten and a ciborium.

FYI: for those who don’t know

The Patten is the [in it’s now almost exclusice use form] the small “dish-like” plate the holds the host before Consencration

It used to ALO be what altar biys held under our chinhs when we received Jesus in Holy Communion on our tongues.

A Ciborium is the larger “cup” that holds the Sacred host both before and after consecration; but takes various forms for todays now Ordinaty Misinters of Holy Communion.

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[HandyAndy]

In my readings of the writings of Catalina, dictated by Christ…No where have I read how disappointed he is with his children not knowing what a Patten is…or what a Ciborium is.

It is their lack of faith, with the real presence in the Eucharist.

This IMHO is where our primary focus should rest with the RCIA program. Our goal should be to re ignite the passion.

From experience…I have done this with our children, who willingly attend Mass pretty much every Sunday, without the need of a lecture or inducement. In fact they moan if for reasons outside our control, we are unable to attend. At times they have visited through the week, just to spend time in his presence. It does my heart good.

This I guess is the essence of why the passion for the Eucharist is so so important. Once that flame is lit…

 

[DAML72]

I have finally decided to come into full communion with the Catholic Church a few months back, and am beginning the RCIA process here in September. I am very well catechized already according to my RCIA coordinator, and am a baptized Christian. I am also the first person to begin RCIA at my local parish here and so last month I started meeting with the RCIA coordinator once a week for instruction. Well, I’m just more or less curious whether or not I will be able to be received into the church come Easter Vigil, and if that is my choice or someone else’s. My catechist, the Rcia coordinator, makes this sound like a tryout. He keeps telling me not to get the ahead of myself and makes it almost seem like he’s trying to push me away like I am unworthy of becoming Catholic. Every time I ask questions about receiving certain Rites when the time comes, he tells me “we’ll see,” after I “discern” certain things. I feel like someone else is in control of me finding my way to the Truth and becoming apart of that, when this should be my choice. It’s like I have to “prove” myself, be stigmatized or something for this to happen. I don’t want to go through all of this for him to tell me in 10 months that I cannot be confirmed this year and then have to wait til the following year or more, and this is really bothering me.

I just went through the RCIA process last year and was received at Easter. My advice is (1) don’t take this personally. It is the process, and he is just doing his job, and (2) if He hasn’t already, the Lord will send you many lessons in humility along this journey. It takes some getting used to to submit yourself to the church - consider this your first lesson not only in humility, but in patience. Trust in God - and trust in those who have been put in charge of the RCIA process.

To more directly answer your question, though - this has been put in place for your benefit - it’s not because you need to prove yourself - it is to ensure that when you are confirmed, you have full awareness that you are committing yourself to and embracing every tenet of the Church. The people running the RCIA don’t know how much you have taught yourself, nor do they know the quality of that self-education. I know it’s very hard, but just be patient. As I said - it’s a BIG part of the process.

 

[DAML72]

I believe it would be the Scholastic method being that it begins in September, receive Sacraments at Easter Vigil, and ends at Pentecost after Mystagogy. How do we discern Rites? If I’m wanting to come into full communion, and have a solid understanding and faith in those Rites, doesn’t that mean that I’ve discerned them?

Again, speaking from experience, I think that this is probably going to end up being a non-issue for you. My Pastor spoke of the discernment period also -it’s part of the RCIA program, and, if I’m not mistaken, it may be spelled out in the Catechism. There are three stages of the RCIA program - the first stage being discernment - that would be time for you to discern whether or not you are being called. I was like you - when I started RCIA, I had pretty much already come to my conclusion, but not everybody is in that state. One of our RCIA candidates dropped out. That said, there was no clear distinction made in my parish between the various stages - perhaps because it became clear to the Pastor that we had all made our intentions clear.

Just hang in there. If it’s really bothering you - make an appointment with the Pastor to discuss. Sometimes the lay people who are in charge of the RCIA process can’t address your particular issues.

 

[DAML72]

IMHO, this part of the church really needs a bit of attention. Priests need to be made aware that when some one decides to become a Catholic…it is never done on a whim. The Catholic faith is probably one of the most misunderstood and despised organizations amongst the public and many of the other religions. The media paints all Priests as being pedophiles and the whole celibacy thing as just not normal. Praying to Mary and views on contraceptives…Why would any one want to move from a fairly liberal Christian way of life, to be branded with the Catholic stigma of a church, that is out dated and out of touch with today’s modern world.
Yet they come…Often well versed in the Scriptures…They are called to the church and to Christ. The Catholic faith will fill in the gaps and these people will become some of the most devoted Catholics the church could ever hope to have in their parishes. They were blind and now see…and see with such clarity.
It always astounds me that the cradle Catholics take all that they have virtually inherited for granted. Not many hoops to jump through here. Go through the motions and you’re in. The Catholic schools are full of Catholics that you would be lucky to find at a Sunday Mass. No families and no kids. Catholic in name only.
Yet the person who is called is viewed with suspicion and greeted with such lethargy…where’s the excitement, the enthusiasm…a sheep was lost and now is found.
I’ve been through the process and I can say that for the most part it lacked direction. The process should have been one of amazement and a thirst for that which I did not know. The one great thing that I was introduced to was the writings of Scott Hahn. Here is a well versed Protestant…a studied Protestant, who became a Catholic. His writings are from this perspective and his excitement in discovering the secrets of the scriptures and that there was only one church supporting his findings were inspiring. The gifts that were there in the Catholic church for us. Gifts from God…Gifts for us.
It was love!..Church sacraments validating a Christ that loves and forgives.

This was such a change from Protestant teachings of fear, hell and punishment.

Priests have a responsibility to ensure that when God finds one of his lost sheep, that the priest is the good shepherd who rejoices at its return. Don’t put obstacles in the way. Such obstacles will come with being a Catholic in today’s modern world.

AMEN!