RCIA at a liberal parish

[Mommomamats]

My husband has begun RCIA (profession of faith) at a very liberal parish. I went through the program last spring at a more conservative parish, but he prefers the style of worship at this one (the style is done well, it’s the few abuses here and there that get to me) and I don’t think he would be converting to the faith if it weren’t for this parish. His heart is in the right place though, by my testimony he is coming to believe the truths of the Catholic faith. We both have had a very conservative Christian background before coming to the Church, so the truths that She holds to in moral teachings are very important to us.

Let me give a few examples of the abuses that go on in this church and some questionable things that were said at the first RCIA meeting. First of all they use illicit matter for the Eucharist. It is bread that obviously has more that wheat and water in its ingredients, (I have heard from a relative that attends the church that sometimes people add onion powder??) The priest takes many liberties with the liturgy and right now he has turned the altar lengthwise and performs the consecration at one end. I try not to be judgemental on the man, it is obvious that he has a great love for the Lord and His people. Another priest said at one time “we’re Catholic, but we’re not Roman Catholic” in the context of not following the rules of the magisterium.

At the RCIA meeting a question was asked about what changed in the Church after Vatican II, the group leader went on a 20 minute diatribe about how cold the Mass was, how no one could understand it or knew what was going on. He claimed that we could still see remnants of the indoctrination of the time in the gestures people do in the Church, that there was no reason to genuflect because the blessed sacrament is not in the main part of the church but in a back room (but still visible through entryways) and that people who pound their chest at the consecration were stuck in the past.
But otherwise he had a lot of good things to say about Sacred Scripture and the conversion process. Though I’m not sure how deep they will delve into the moral conversion process…

I post this because we are going to stay at this program until my husband is received into the Church. He does not like to turn his back on people in error and wants to stick around to be beacons of the truth. I am all for it, I feel like “Here I am Lord, send me.” But I’ve only been in the Church since Easter, I’m shy and get nervous around strangers (though I was able to stand up for the reason I genuflect in the church, (the true presence is still there and I can feel it through that wall!) I’m also afraid that I will not be welcome there, though I may not be my husband’s sponsor, I want to stay there so I know what he is being taught, and I feel for those other souls in the class who may not be instructed properly… but who am I???
Should I put a little pressure on my husband to go somewhere else, or should we stick it out? It makes me sick that this parish can get away with acting so un-Catholic, somethings got to change, I’m just not sure little ol’ me is gonna make much difference against the entrenched liberalism there.

 

[puzzleannie]

Let me give a few examples of the abuses that go on in this church and some questionable things that were said at the first RCIA meeting. First of all they use illicit matter for the Eucharist. It is bread that obviously has more that wheat and water in its ingredients, (I have heard from a relative that attends the church that sometimes people add onion powder??) there.

this is a deal-breaker. First find out if it is true that invalid (not illicit, invalid) matter is used for Eucharist. Ask the pastor himself, don’t rely on hearsay. If it is true that invalid matter (anything other than bread made with wheat flour and water only) is being used that means the Eucharist is invalid, there is no Eucharistic celebration happening in that parish, and the pastor has formally defected from the Catholic Church. The other statements you have heard about dissenting from magesterial teaching bear this out.

It is also your unfortunate duty to bring this matter to the attention of the bishop, but in your written, signed, one-page letter give the relevant facts, the source of your information, and what you yourselves have observed and been told by the pastor. Stick to concrete things, like the invalid matter, and disobedience urged from the pulpit. leave out speculations and side issues. In fact find out from the diocese if this parish and priest are in fact in good standing, it may be they are not.

In no case should your husband or anyone else be participating in RCIA here because it will not help but most probably harm any of the participants.

Don’t worry you will find you home, and make the move now, as in this week, as parishes are starting up this month. Welcome home to both of you, and congratulations for being such a good witness.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Mommomamats, puzzleannie has given you good advice.

You say that you’re shy and nervous around strangers. I have been that way too, but I have learned to overcome it when the matter is important, i.e., when standing up for my faith.

You also said that you are getting a feeling of “Here I am Lord, send me.” That’s wonderful! Use the grace God is giving you. Be courageous in tackling this problem, for your husband’s benefit and for the benefit of all the people in that RCIA program and that parish.

Pray to the Holy Spirit to increase in you His gift of fortitude (courage) that you received in the Sacrament of Confirmation; He will help you because you are doing His work.

 

[Mommomamats]

this is a deal-breaker. First find out if it is true that invalid (not illicit, invalid) matter is used for Eucharist. Ask the pastor himself, don’t rely on hearsay. If it is true that invalid matter (anything other than bread made with wheat flour and water only) is being used that means the Eucharist is invalid, there is no Eucharistic celebration happening in that parish, and the pastor has formally defected from the Catholic Church. The other statements you have heard about dissenting from magesterial teaching bear this out.

Ok, I thought I read somewhere that invalid matter makes for an illicit, but not invalid, Eucharist. My relative has baked the bread before and told me they add baking soda and honey for certain, and sometimes people get crazy and add other things. I really don’t think I would be able confront the priest about this, a letter to the bishop is no problem.

I hestate to jump ship because I have felt the power of the Holy Spirit here and had some wonderful worship experiences… just wish they would follow the rules… I sure hope I haven’t been worshipping bread!

 

[manualman]

Others have commented well on the host matter.

If you resolve that issue and it is valid matter, consider doing ‘extra credit’ at home.

The Didache series on the catholic faith by Midwest Theological Forum were developed to be high school textbooks, but would be OUTSTANDING resources for RCIA, formal or DIY.

 

[PJM]

=Mommomamats;5637886]My husband has begun RCIA (profession of faith) at a very liberal parish. I went through the program last spring at a more conservative parish, but he prefers the style of worship at this one (the style is done well, it’s the few abuses here and there that get to me) and I don’t think he would be converting to the faith if it weren’t for this parish. His heart is in the right place though, by my testimony he is coming to believe the truths of the Catholic faith. We both have had a very conservative Christian background before coming to the Church, so the truths that She holds to in moral teachings are very important to us.

Let me give a few examples of the abuses that go on in this church and some questionable things that were said at the first RCIA meeting. First of all they use illicit matter for the Eucharist. It is bread that obviously has more that wheat and water in its ingredients, (I have heard from a relative that attends the church that sometimes people add onion powder??) The priest takes many liberties with the liturgy and right now he has turned the altar lengthwise and performs the consecration at one end. I try not to be judgemental on the man, it is obvious that he has a great love for the Lord and His people. Another priest said at one time “we’re Catholic, but we’re not Roman Catholic” in the context of not following the rules of the magisterium.

At the RCIA meeting a question was asked about what changed in the Church after Vatican II, the group leader went on a 20 minute diatribe about how cold the Mass was, how no one could understand it or knew what was going on. He claimed that we could still see remnants of the indoctrination of the time in the gestures people do in the Church, that there was no reason to genuflect because the blessed sacrament is not in the main part of the church but in a back room (but still visible through entryways) and that people who pound their chest at the consecration were stuck in the past.
But otherwise he had a lot of good things to say about Sacred Scripture and the conversion process. Though I’m not sure how deep they will delve into the moral conversion process…

I post this because we are going to stay at this program until my husband is received into the Church. He does not like to turn his back on people in error and wants to stick around to be beacons of the truth. I am all for it, I feel like “Here I am Lord, send me.” But I’ve only been in the Church since Easter, I’m shy and get nervous around strangers (though I was able to stand up for the reason I genuflect in the church, (the true presence is still there and I can feel it through that wall!) I’m also afraid that I will not be welcome there, though I may not be my husband’s sponsor, I want to stay there so I know what he is being taught, and I feel for those other souls in the class who may not be instructed properly… but who am I???
Should I put a little pressure on my husband to go somewhere else, or should we stick it out? It makes me sick that this parish can get away with acting so un-Catholic, somethings got to change, I’m just not sure little ol’ me is gonna make much difference against the entrenched liberalism there.

***The Mass with invalid matter invalidates the Mass.

Putting the other abuses aside for the present, I strongly suggest that you find an Orthodox Roman Catholic Priest and discuss these matters with him ASAP.

I can certainly understand your concern, and if nothing esles you both should be seeking Mass in another Roman Catholic parish.

I taught RCIA for three years. It’s an awesome responsibility. One has a grave moral obligation to teach the faith in full communion with the RCC. If as you indicate this is not taking place, we the community of believers do an injustice to those trying to learn if the CC is right for them. How can they make a sound moral judgement if the truth [singular] is not being shared.

Ask this advisor priest, but I would strongly suggest that you both find another parish. What is being taught is NOT the Faith Beliefs and Practices of the RCC, rather they are the beliefs of some who choose only to call themselves Catholic.

One either is an informed, practicing Catholic or one is NOT a catholic.

This should be done with a sense of urgency.

Love and prayers,***

 

[Supercatholic]

My husband has begun RCIA (profession of faith) at a very liberal parish. I went through the program last spring at a more conservative parish, but he prefers the style of worship at this one (the style is done well, it’s the few abuses here and there that get to me) and I don’t think he would be converting to the faith if it weren’t for this parish. His heart is in the right place though, by my testimony he is coming to believe the truths of the Catholic faith. We both have had a very conservative Christian background before coming to the Church, so the truths that She holds to in moral teachings are very important to us.

Let me give a few examples of the abuses that go on in this church and some questionable things that were said at the first RCIA meeting. First of all they use illicit matter for the Eucharist. It is bread that obviously has more that wheat and water in its ingredients, (I have heard from a relative that attends the church that sometimes people add onion powder??) The priest takes many liberties with the liturgy and right now he has turned the altar lengthwise and performs the consecration at one end. I try not to be judgemental on the man, it is obvious that he has a great love for the Lord and His people. Another priest said at one time “we’re Catholic, but we’re not Roman Catholic” in the context of not following the rules of the magisterium.

At the RCIA meeting a question was asked about what changed in the Church after Vatican II, the group leader went on a 20 minute diatribe about how cold the Mass was, how no one could understand it or knew what was going on. He claimed that we could still see remnants of the indoctrination of the time in the gestures people do in the Church, that there was no reason to genuflect because the blessed sacrament is not in the main part of the church but in a back room (but still visible through entryways) and that people who pound their chest at the consecration were stuck in the past.
But otherwise he had a lot of good things to say about Sacred Scripture and the conversion process. Though I’m not sure how deep they will delve into the moral conversion process…

I post this because we are going to stay at this program until my husband is received into the Church. He does not like to turn his back on people in error and wants to stick around to be beacons of the truth. I am all for it, I feel like “Here I am Lord, send me.” But I’ve only been in the Church since Easter, I’m shy and get nervous around strangers (though I was able to stand up for the reason I genuflect in the church, (the true presence is still there and I can feel it through that wall!) I’m also afraid that I will not be welcome there, though I may not be my husband’s sponsor, I want to stay there so I know what he is being taught, and I feel for those other souls in the class who may not be instructed properly… but who am I???
Should I put a little pressure on my husband to go somewhere else, or should we stick it out? It makes me sick that this parish can get away with acting so un-Catholic, somethings got to change, I’m just not sure little ol’ me is gonna make much difference against the entrenched liberalism there.

WARNING! WARNING! DANGER! DANGER! From what you describe of this so called parish, I think that it is possibly one of those false non denominational churches that call themselves “catholic”. Any church that calls themselves “catholic” and has no allegience to Rome is not a true Catholic Church. Tell your husband to wake up and grow up. As true Catholics we are called to worship Christ the way he tells us to, not what feels good to us.

 

[Mommomamats]

WARNING! WARNING! DANGER! DANGER! From what you describe of this so called parish, I think that it is possibly one of those false non denominational churches that call themselves “catholic”. Any church that calls themselves “catholic” and has no allegience to Rome is not a true Catholic Church. Tell your husband to wake up and grow up. As true Catholics we are called to worship Christ the way he tells us to, not what feels good to us.

No, I thought that might be the case too, (I jest) but the parish is indeed apart of our diocese. And I fully agree that we are called to worship Christ the way he tells us to and not what feels good. I attend Mass at a more conservative parish at least once a week, I don’t feel fed if I don’t.

I will discuss this with my husband, I realize the main reason I stay is that I am submitting to my husband’s choice. This is kind of a sore point with us as at one point in our marriage I threw a fit over questionable teaching at a protestant church that we were established at, and essentially made him leave with me against his will. He has the “fix it” mind set when it comes to a church in error, and I just want to run away! Which is how I finally came to the Catholic truth, btw.

So does the added ingredients to the bread truly make the Mass invalid? I keep reading conflicting things, is it invalid or illicit? I know its an abuse but, I have relatives that go to Mass here, and I am concerned.

I have written a letter to our Bishop, but, I question even his orthodoxy. This parish is located in a rich area of town and pulls in a ton of money a month in offerings, makes me doubt anything will be done.

 

[thequeen]

Please get away from this heretical parish and sign up at the closest parish that is doing things right from what you write nothing is valid in this parish it is so important that we learn to do things the right way and the way that magisterium of the church requires Please do not walk but run away from that parish and get into an rcia program in a parish that teaches the faith correctly and where the priest celebrates the mass the way it is supposed to be celebrated the way the church has been celebrating it since the time of Christ and the apostles

 

[Mommomamats]

***The Mass with invalid matter invalidates the Mass.

Putting the other abuses aside for the present, I strongly suggest that you find an Orthodox Roman Catholic Priest and discuss these matters with him ASAP.

I can certainly understand your concern, and if nothing esles you both should be seeking Mass in another Roman Catholic parish.

I taught RCIA for three years. It’s an awesome responsibility. One has a grave moral obligation to teach the faith in full communion with the RCC. If as you indicate this is not taking place, we the community of believers do an injustice to those trying to learn if the CC is right for them. How can they make a sound moral judgement if the truth [singular] is not being shared.

Ask this advisor priest, but I would strongly suggest that you both find another parish. What is being taught is NOT the Faith Beliefs and Practices of the RCC, rather they are the beliefs of some who choose only to call themselves Catholic.

One either is an informed, practicing Catholic or one is NOT a catholic.

This should be done with a sense of urgency.

Love and prayers,***

Thank you for your informed response. I will relay all this to my husband ASAP… Now the problem of pulling my extended family out of there. They are cradle Catholics and I am afraid I may come off as holier than thou when I point the truth out to them, please pray for us!

 

[Supercatholic]

No, I thought that might be the case too, (I jest) but the parish is indeed apart of our diocese. And I fully agree that we are called to worship Christ the way he tells us to and not what feels good. I attend Mass at a more conservative parish at least once a week, I don’t feel fed if I don’t.

I will discuss this with my husband, I realize the main reason I stay is that I am submitting to my husband’s choice. This is kind of a sore point with us as at one point in our marriage I threw a fit over questionable teaching at a protestant church that we were established at, and essentially made him leave with me against his will. He has the “fix it” mind set when it comes to a church in error, and I just want to run away! Which is how I finally came to the Catholic truth, btw.

So does the added ingredients to the bread truly make the Mass invalid? I keep reading conflicting things, is it invalid or illicit? I know its an abuse but, I have relatives that go to Mass here, and I am concerned.

I have written a letter to our Bishop, but, I question even his orthodoxy. This parish is located in a rich area of town and pulls in a ton of money a month in offerings, makes me doubt anything will be done.

I’m not an expert as to what exactly makes a mass invalid or illicit, but just the fact the priest of this parish says they’re not “Roman” Catholic still raises a HUGE red flag. In your letter to your Bishop did you describe the major differences between the conservative parish you attend and the country club your husband wants to join? And if so, why does he allow such things to take place. If any Catholic church is doing things just for the money then they are doing a tremendous disfavor to the parishoners souls. It’s time you looked your husband dead in the eyes and ask him " Are you becoming Catholic for Christ and all that is true, or are you just joining for the happy times of this parish?". Also ask your husband “Will you go somewhere else when this place changes or no longer holds your interest?” I fear your husband is not really ready to become a member of the Roman Catholic Church if his concern is having a good time instead of understanding the brutal horrible painful humiliating sacrifice Christ made for our souls and the purchase of His Church.

 

[kage_ar]

I have written a letter to our Bishop, but, I question even his orthodoxy. This parish is located in a rich area of town and pulls in a ton of money a month in offerings, makes me doubt anything will be done.

The proper chain of command is important - Pastor, Bishop, then Rome.

You have not talked to the Pastor, but, it might be good to make an appointment for you AND your husband to talk to him. Grab him at RCIA and ask to schedule something for the following day or so.

 

[manualman]

I’d suggest submitting a question on illicit vs invalid to the ‘Ask and Apologist’ forum here at CAF, rather than relying on the opinions of board members you don’t personally know. I’m not challenging them (personally my recollection is that adding honey or spices DOES make it invalid), but you need soild trustworthy advice before confronting a pastor or writing a bishop.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

So does the added ingredients to the bread truly make the Mass invalid? I keep reading conflicting things, is it invalid or illicit? I know its an abuse but, I have relatives that go to Mass here, and I am concerned.

This link may be helpful: cuf.org/FileDownloads/breadwine.pdf

A couple of possibly relevant citations from this document (bold emphasis added):

Matter is to be regarded as dubious, and hence is not to be used, if a notable quantity of any other substance has been added to the wheat or to the wine, even though that other substance be not present in greater or equal quantity; for it is criminal to expose so great a Sacrament to the danger of nullity. (citing Dominus Salvator Noster, p. 355)

It may be helpful to note that recipes sent to the Sacred Congregation over the past several years vary greatly in the matter of “additions”; where there is question of slight additions (e.g., salt, condiments) the matter will be valid but illicit; where there is substitution of all or a **large quantity **of water by other liquids (e.g., milk, honey, etc.) the matter will be invalid. (citing Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Letter to the NCCB President, June 4, 1979, in Canon Law Digest, vol. 9, pp. 578-80)

And the following are from Redemptionis Sacramentum #48 and #173 (bold emphasis added):

“The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition. It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament. It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools.”

[173.] Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

Why would your pastor want to be responsible for a grave abuse? (If I’m not mistaken, that would be a mortal sin if done with knowledge and consent. Grave matter, knowledge, and consent are the three conditions necessary for mortal sin.) And why would anybody want to mess with this and even raise the question of invalidating the Sacrament? No one (like yourself) should ever have to worry about this. We should be able to trust our pastors to see that only valid and licit matter is used. I think it demonstrates great arrogance when parishes put themselves above such simple rules of the Church.

 

[Mommomamats]

Thank you for the links. By reading the Redemptionis Sacrementum on the Vatican website, I gather that the bread used at this parish is illicit and not invalid. It is definitely mainly wheat and water with a few extras thrown in. I was concerned that we had been receiving invalid matter while believing it was valid.
I understand the additional ingredients are a serious abuse, and it is a deal breaker.
We will go to RCIA there this week and bring it up with the Pastor, if it is not resolved we will head for greener pastures.

Just to clear something up, my husband and I come from a nondenominational background, are fully grounded in Scripture and fully appreciate Christ’s sacrifice and have so lived our lives accordingly for many years.
Besides the abuses, the parish in question is a wonderful bridge between protestantism and catholicism. That may be a bad thing to the most orthodox of Catholics, but I am thankful for the parish for opening my husband’s eyes to accepting the Catholic Church as the true Church of Christ.
His wanting to go to this parish is because of his preference for the style of worship there. He is fully aware of the truths and teachings put forth by the Church thanks to me. He doesn’t want to stay because it feels good, he wants to stay because he doesn’t want to run from a church in error, he wants to fix it. God help him.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ok
I hestate to jump ship because I have felt the power of the Holy Spirit here and had some wonderful worship experiences… just wish they would follow the rules… I sure hope I haven’t been worshipping bread!

the Holy Spirit cannot be acting in a community who is led by a priest who openly defines the Church which the Holy Spirit protects, nor in a community that actively embraces such dissent to the extent of keeping invalid matter for the Eucharist. Since this apparently from your description is done in a spirit of defiance, not simply in ignorance, it is safe to say the Holy Spirit has absented Himself from these procedings except insofar to move those involved to repent and return to the full communion with the Church. The Holy Spirit cannot and will not move people to defy legitimate Church teaching and authority, He cannot work against Himself.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

the Holy Spirit cannot be acting in a community who is led by a priest who openly defines the Church which the Holy Spirit protects, nor in a community that actively embraces such dissent to the extent of keeping invalid matter for the Eucharist. Since this apparently from your description is done in a spirit of defiance, not simply in ignorance, it is safe to say the Holy Spirit has absented Himself from these procedings except insofar to move those involved to repent and return to the full communion with the Church. The Holy Spirit cannot and will not move people to defy legitimate Church teaching and authority, He cannot work against Himself.

Well said.

And be careful not to confuse “feelings” with spiritual realities. Sometimes we can get an emotional high that is not really the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mommomamats]

I know the presence of God when I feel it, I’m not one for happy clappy feel good experiences. It seems to me the Holy Spirit is indeed working in a place with validly ordained priests consecrating, illicit, not invalid, matter, after all I am sure the wine is licit anyway. Perhaps they do not know the bread is not up to proper standards, I don’t know.

Perhaps the people do not know they are in defiance of Rome since there seems to be no authority around here enforcing the standard. How can a Church protected by the Holy Spirit allow a parish to err unchecked for so long.
Maybe it is because the “holy ones” keep running away from this parish that nothing has ever changed.