RCIA class on sin

[DetectiveNiko]

I am not good at explaining but hopefully I help.

There was talk akin to if a person grows up lying frequently, and develops the “habit” of lying, that subsequent lying, even though you know you shouldn’t, isn’t as serious due to the “habit.” This really made me scratch my head.

In Catholicism, we don’t just have sin. We have degrees of sin. The highest degree being mortal sin.
Lets say you were set up for murder in a way.You push a button that would make a fire alarm go off, but in that case it triggers a trap that kills someone.You killed the person, but is it your fault ? No.
From that we can se that you are held accountable depending on certain factors. Regarding mortal sin its this :
1.Its subject matter must be grave.
2. It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense.
3. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.
So if you have a habit to do a certain sin, and then later you finally decide to say no to that sin, but you keep failing, the sin will be smaller because you have will not to sin, but lack practice because it has become a habit.

There was also stuff about whether or not it is a sin to kill somebody who breaks into your house. And, that apparently, it could be a sin to shoot somebody armed with a knife/bat/etc. (unless they get close) vs. somebody armed with a firearm? Um, what?

Well its just to kill another person in self defense. If I understand correctly, then it follows from that :
1.If a person has a knife/bat and you have a gun, you can only shoot if he headed for you or tried to stab you.
2.If the person is holding you at gunpoint, and you are holding him at gunpoint, you don’t know whether he is going to shoot or not, since a bullet can cause an instant death, therefore shooting him then even if he doesnt attack you is closer to self defense.

Got an example of somebody growing up in the mafia and it not being as serious a sin for that person to go out and engage in those activities because they didn’t know better. I guess as long as you go through the formalities of the faith and don’t look too carefully at those areas that speak against the actions of the mafia, you’re good-to-go because you “didn’t know better” when you ordered a half-dozen “hits” on your opponents. Apparently, if your “culture” tells you you’re okay, it’s okay, where have I heard that before?

I think you misunderstood it.The “as serious a sin” is the keyword.Though I do not agree that its ok to continue doing that if you are practicing your faith.I think that example fits more for a person that has never heard the gospel or grew up in that enviroment and being told that Jesus is just a myth or something.
In the end I would have to draw a conclusion.I think the point of the RCIA lesson was that God judges us by looking at all of our circumstance as a whole. He looks at our will to live a life of a good person vs a bad person.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Sadly there are some dismally unqualified folks out there who lead these sessions. Make notes and speak to the pastor.

What was taught is correct. The understanding of what was taught is not. Coming here for clarification and further understanding is fine. Could have also asked the person teaching to clarify.

 

[Hereiam]

You may be correct.

However, often it is not the lack of qualifications in the catechists, and more a weakness in the development of an appropriate course syllabus, coupled with the earnest desire of students to want to gain a quick and deep knowledge of Church theology and history.

In an attempt to cover “everything” about Catholicism (from Canon Law to Vatican II, to attempts at deep explanations of moral law and social justice by those who, understandably, are not trained or even particularly well versed on the topics) often only confuses and frustrates students, and takes away from the precious time available for a good course on Christian Initiation, which is the mission of the RCIA.

RCIA is a survey course, not a graduate program.

The Inquiry phase is to provide enough background to allow pre-catechumen to decide whether they choose to pursue joining in full communion with the Church.

The Catechumen phase is to provide basic catechesis centered on the Sacraments of Initiation, prior to entry into the Church at the Easter Vigil.

The Mystagogy phase, following Easter and running through Pentecost, is as the name applies, a deeper period of catechesis to present and explain the best they can, the sacred mysteries of the faith.

Unfortunately, Mystagogy is often non-existent, or simply not viewed with the same importance as pre-Easter catechesis by both RCIA students and team members.

The key to remember, RCIA, like High School, the end is NOT graduation, but rather it is commencement.

Real knowledge and understanding of theology, history, tradition, is a life long policy, because the journey of faith is one that never ends until we reach the loving arms of God in heaven.

And, so the pursuit of this important post-RCIA catechesis is the responsibility of all members of the faith, and this continued catechesis of the Neophytes is the obligation of all members of the parish, family members, friends, sponsors, God Parents, and other Catholics, and is not a responsibility that can be laid at the feet of RCIA team members.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You may be correct.

However, often it is not the lack of qualifications in the catechists, and more a weakness in the development of an appropriate course syllabus, coupled with the earnest desire of students to want to gain a quick and deep knowledge of Church theology and history.

In an attempt to cover “everything” about Catholicism (from Canon Law to Vatican II, to attempts at deep explanations of moral law and social justice by those who, understandably, are not trained or even particularly well versed on the topics) often only confuses and frustrates students, and takes away from the precious time available for a good course on Christian Initiation, which is the mission of the RCIA.

RCIA is a survey course, not a graduate program.

The Inquiry phase is to provide enough background to allow pre-catechumen to decide whether they choose to pursue joining in full communion with the Church.

The Catechumen phase is to provide basic catechesis centered on the Sacraments of Initiation, prior to entry into the Church at the Easter Vigil.

The Mystagogy phase, following Easter and running through Pentecost, is as the name applies, a deeper period of catechesis to present and explain the best they can, the sacred mysteries of the faith.

Unfortunately, Mystagogy is often non-existent, or simply not viewed with the same importance as pre-Easter catechesis by both RCIA students and team members.

The key to remember, RCIA, like High School, the end is NOT graduation, but rather it is commencement.

Real knowledge and understanding of theology, history, tradition, is a life long policy, because the journey of faith is one that never ends until we reach the loving arms of God in heaven.

And, so the pursuit of this important post-RCIA catechesis is the responsibility of all members of the faith, and this continued catechesis of the Neophytes is the obligation of all members of the parish, family members, friends, sponsors, God Parents, and other Catholics, and is not a responsibility that can be laid at the feet of RCIA team members.

Very good overview. I’ll add to your first paragraph, that often the catechumens view RCIA as a burden, that they are forced to participate in. That sense of burden is enforced by Catholics who tell them things like, RCIA is a joke, or fiasco.

 

[Seeksadvice]

Niko: within 15-20 feet, a knife or similar weapon can be just as deadly as a firearm, especially if the firearm isn’t “drawn” or ready. Most rooms in most houses are 15-20 feet at most. If the intruder turns around and flees, then, of course, outside of other circumstances, you can’t shoot the guy.

Under the fire alarm situation, you would be acting under the impression that you were doing something to help somebody. In the habit of lying, you’re doing something that you know is improper. That’s where I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around things.

Ike: Maybe it’s because of what I do for a living, but manipulation of the intentionality portion reminds me of the lines I hear in just about every sentencing hearing.

Randomalias: Humans, like all animals, have a hardwired reaction to threats: do we run from it or do we fight it. You can work around it to a certain degree, however, as Eisenhower, I think it was, noted: plans tend to stop working the moment contact is made.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Niko: within 15-20 feet, a knife or similar weapon can be just as deadly as a firearm, especially if the firearm isn’t “drawn” or ready. Most rooms in most houses are 15-20 feet at most. If the intruder turns around and flees, then, of course, outside of other circumstances, you can’t shoot the guy.

See this is where I disagree. I would say that a bullet travels way faster than a knife. And you can see a dagger coming as you need to do the throwing motion, while for a gun if its already drawn you need to use only a single finger and the shot flies at extremely high speeds.

Under the fire alarm situation, you would be acting under the impression that you were doing something to help somebody. In the habit of lying, you’re doing something that you know is improper. That’s where I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around things.

With the fire alarm situation I was trying to just show a principle. The principle was that there are different levels of culpability. And if you are lying and you know its wrong, but you continue doing it, its of course a big sin. But if you later, realise what you are doing, and decide to repent, it can be a problem to stop since you created a habit.
From this it might seem like habits bring a lot of bad things to our life aspecially addictions, but there are a lot of good practical uses for it like the habit of praying, so I think its important to see from the RCIA lesson that a person is judged not by some “if A is done thats a B level of sin” but that "if A is done B level of sin is dependant on a lot of factors therefore varying "

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Ike: Maybe it’s because of what I do for a living, but manipulation of the intentionality portion reminds me of the lines I hear in just about every sentencing hearing.

I take it you work in the criminal justice process. If you figure God is the just judge, then you can think of sinners as being the D’s who come before him.
If a judge sees that a D is manipulating or making excuses, he’s going to say “nice try, no sale” and hand down a stiff sentence.
But if a judge legitimately sees some sort of mitigating factor, then the judge in his discretion and mercy might give a lesser sentence.

Catholicism, like the judicial system in USA, tries to avoid mandatory sentencing and allow for discretion in cases where there really are mitigating factors. However, when you get in the actual practice of going to confession, that doesn’t mean the priest (sitting in the person of Jesus) is going to just buy any old excuse you give. They will tell you in no uncertain terms if they think you’re making excuses for your sins.

Based on your other statements about what is going on in this particular RCIA you’re in, I’m guessing perhaps it is being taught by someone who has a social justice bent and doesn’t want to come off as being too hard on sin especially when it involves someone the teacher thinks of as poor or oppressed. This is one school of thought in the Church. It is not representative of every priest’s approach to sin, not by a long shot. Take it for what it’s worth but do read the Catechism and if necessary talk to a few other priests to get a fuller perspective.

 

[Vico]

The “intentionality” factor seems to be something of nearly infinite flexibility and can be crafted to fit almost any circumstance. …

Catechism

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” 59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.