RCIA program flaws

[Marchmain1987]

I can relate to the post that contains the PM – partly anyway.

I do not have any allusions about mystical and very personal happenings when one receives (or in my case, will receive) Holy Communion. Maybe I have been reading too much Graham Greene. I am prepared for God’s “silence” (I know I am going to taste unleavened bread and wine). At least in the superficial way of an outward significant sign: God is, usually, much more subtle than that. I think this is part of having a grown-up faith. A bad definition, I know.

But I confess that I do not find the liturgical settings for the OF of the Mass moving (at least the way they are presented in my parish). Of course, that feeling is tied to superficial sentiment on my part. As a Protestant (I suppose I still am in the technical sense of the term), I have already experienced the upside (and downside) of having a worship service linked, in large part, to the ideal of Christian community and our relations with each other within the particular of participating in a somewhat structured liturgical setting. The focus becomes the priest, my neighbor, etc. Let me put it this way: the congregation in relation to Christ instead of Christ in relation to the Congregation.

However, the new Missal has helped me focus more on Christ during OF Mass (and I find my mind wonders less when I actively follow everything that is going on). Now I usually have a mad dash for my wallet during the Offertory.

With the EF, I find the supernatural element of the Mass palpable. It is glorious. I do not have to think so hard – that is the easiest way I can explain. Again, this is tied to superficial sentiment on my part. I truly think that St. Ignatius and St. Bonaventure are helping me rid myself of superficial sentiment and its relation to Christ vis-à-vis myself.

I know that one form of the Mass is not “better” than the other in the sense of the normal use of the word. But the Ordinary Form leaves me cold while the Extra Ordinary Form leaves me warm. And I am just not able to attend an EF Mass every Sunday – two hours to the nearest Church.

I think this sentiment (kitsch) is tied to being a Protestant. But I may be wrong?

 

[Balian]

This! I don’t like being dismissed. I go to daily masses pretty regularly because I don’t like missing out, even if I can’t partake yet.

Interesting. In the RCIA program (process, whatever you want to call it) I am in, everyone - baptized (which I am) and unbaptized - participates in dismissal.

I am very fortunate in that I love the RCIA program that I am in and don’t really have any complaints other than not really liking dismissal. Coming from atheism, I have found those running it to be very open and responsive to my questions and we have a very diverse group of people (from skeptics to religious Protestants), so we touch on a lot of really deep theological and philosophical topics.

I had no idea that those baptized must do confession during Lent. I am petrified.

I’m in full agreement with you. I love my RCIA program too and have found it extremely helpful in my journey. I’ve read lots of threads on CA about problems some have experienced with RCIA. Evidently your mileage varies depending on the state of the program and quality of teachers in whatever parish you happen to choose.

RCIA can work well I think with good leaders. But I don’t think all the responsibility can be placed on the volunteers that lead the program. There just isn’t enough class time to do more than introduce us to the topics so I think participants have to spend time in self-study to get a real in depth understanding. At least at my parish we are provided all the tools to do that and I try to take advantage of it. There is so much that a person needs to learn when becoming Catholic from a Protestant background or no real religious background at all. I feel like self-study for me will be a lifelong process since I didn’t attend a Catholic school or Catholic religious classes while growing up. Yet I can say unequivocally that the Church has already answered to my satisfaction all the questions that four decades in a Protestant denomination had left me with. I truly feel that I have come home.

Also don’t stress about confession during Lent. I had the opportunity to do my first confession today and I felt exactly the same way as you before the experience. I was so nervous but after it was over I realized that I spent a considerable amount of time and energy worrying for nothing. I felt wonderful afterwards and won’t ever fear confession in the future.

 

[knotanes]

From the original post: The idea that Protestants can’t become and stay Catholic is silly to me. Aren’t there some current bishops that came from protestant backgrounds?

In our experience, we’re now looking at 8 years, just trying to BECOME Catholic. We would have to be completely lacking in brain function to spend nearly a decade in pursuit of something just to give it up once we’ve got it. Granted, some people only take roughly a year to get through RCIA, but the lack of commitment is on them. It’s not the RCIA program, or Catholicism, or the “superiority” of the various protestant denominations that does it. It’s their feet of clay that makes them falter.

As for the strength of an RCIA program, it no doubt helps to have a good one, but you can’t rely on others to build your faith. After all of these years, we’ve had good and bad experiences in RCIA and also, through our children, RE. Each time I’ve had to shake it off, or help my kids shake it off and come to a fuller understanding of INDIVIDUAL responsibility in the building of a relationship with God. Other people WILL fail. The great thing about the structure of the Catholic Church is the number of back-ups, fail-safes, etc. built into the system. These are often lacking in smaller Christian groups, and that makes forming faith and growing in relationship with God much, much harder. The Church is constantly checking for error, correcting it wherever it can, and trying to improve its understanding of God/improve its communication to the masses its understanding of God.

Good RCIA and RE teachers are a plus and a true credit to the communities they serve, but the onus is on the seeker to learn and keep learning no matter what the odds.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I was a Protestant minister for 20 years and a pastor for nine of those years before becoming Catholic, and the statistics are no different there. People are looking for the church that will conform to their lifestyle, instead of conforming their lifestyle to the truth. The turnover rate is astonishing among Protestant churches. Some churches ebb and flow like the stock market. This is not a Catholic problem but a people problem.

ctop

I agree with you on this, although I’m a revert, 40 years ago.

Many people I see converting, are sering their ego and they link it to the religion which happens to serve the purpose for the moment.

The OP article mentioned converts being attracted to Gregorian Chant, Latin etc. Most often, this has nothing to do with faith in Jesus Christ, but an attraction to something unique from their own life experience, and something to identify the ego to. Telling their family and friends that they’re converting to Catholicsm brings attention, which the ego loves.

However, after they become Catholic, in a short time this all wears off, and the ego is once again in search of something to indentify with. Catholicism isn’t it, and they may have actually lost friends over it, so they return to their past.

Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t the same for all converts who leave, but part of the reason that I have seen.

Jim

 

[knotanes]

I agree with you on this, although I’m a revert, 40 years ago.

Many people I see converting, are sering their ego and they link it to the religion which happens to serve the purpose for the moment.

The OP article mentioned converts being attracted to Gregorian Chant, Latin etc. Most often, this has nothing to do with faith in Jesus Christ, but an attraction to something unique from their own life experience, and something to identify the ego to. Telling their family and friends that they’re converting to Catholicsm brings attention, which the ego loves.

However, after they become Catholic, in a short time this all wears off, and the ego is once again in search of something to indentify with. Catholicism isn’t it, and they may have actually lost friends over it, so they return to their past.

Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t the same for all converts who leave, but part of the reason that I have seen.

Jim

I agree with you, Jim. If you could picture yourself still being Catholic stranded on a desert island with no witnesses to your faith (or stained glass to look at)… that’s the kind of convert I’d like to be (and hope I am). It’s been a long road, here. Hopefully, in the end, we can prove to our fellow Catholics that we were worth the time and effort and years and paperwork.

 

[Jon_Berkley]

Well, I was baptized as an infant before RCIA. You are right things have gotten better in 30 years in most spots. My parish has a good RCIA program, but it and yours, I’m sure, could be better. I am very thankful for the Church. I am glad to be in home in it as I am sure you are.

 

[Anniejoe]

My RCIA program does not use the CCC or any approved materials. The director seems to be drawn to protestant theology (although I don’t think she realizes it). If some in our class end up returning to a protestant group, it won’t be a surprise - they haven’t really learned much about Catholicism.

 

[knotanes]

Well, I was baptized as an infant before RCIA. You are right things have gotten better in 30 years in most spots. My parish has a good RCIA program, but it and yours, I’m sure, could be better. I am very thankful for the Church. I am glad to be in home in it as I am sure you are.

Definitely. I couldn’t leave if I tried. Home is home.

My RCIA program does not use the CCC or any approved materials. The director seems to be drawn to protestant theology (although I don’t think she realizes it). If some in our class end up returning to a protestant group, it won’t be a surprise - they haven’t really learned much about Catholicism.

Ugh. We’ve had some of that, too. Some wishy-washy Catholicism and some hinting at protestant theology. As protestant theology is something I have some exposure to, I think I realize it and am more sensitive to picking up on it. But, the best guard against that is to study on your own and get a second opinion on things that seem a little “off-base”.

It does bother me when I feel the whole picture of Catholicism isn’t been relayed, but again, as RCIA participants, we should be searching and studying on our own time. No one can do it for us. I do worry for those who don’t, though We can only trust God will help them along and do our best to help our fellow travelers.

 

[Jon_Berkley]

Which makes me wonder how they are going to be able to stick with the Church for all of eternity. If a few months out of their lives is too much, then how is the rest of their lives not “too much,” as well?

Oh. Well, they stick with the Church by the very same means that you do. By the graces of the Sacraments

 

[jmcrae]

Oh. Well, they stick with the Church by the very same means that you do. By the graces of the Sacraments

Well, yes - if they can fit the Sacraments into their busy schedule, of course.

It takes eight years to become an engineer, and you have to go to school every day - why would anybody expect it to take less than a year to become a Catholic, especially since the classes are only twice a week, at the very most? You’re going to be a Catholic for a lot longer than you’re going to be an engineer - you might as well take the time to get good at it.

 

[tafan]

Well, yes - if they can fit the Sacraments into their busy schedule, of course.

It takes eight years to become an engineer, and you have to go to school every day - why would anybody expect it to take less than a year to become a Catholic, especially since the classes are only twice a week, at the very most? You’re going to be a Catholic for a lot longer than you’re going to be an engineer - you might as well take the time to get good at it.

Lots of problems with this logic.

 

[nickybr38]

Well, yes - if they can fit the Sacraments into their busy schedule, of course.

It takes eight years to become an engineer, and you have to go to school every day - why would anybody expect it to take less than a year to become a Catholic, especially since the classes are only twice a week, at the very most? You’re going to be a Catholic for a lot longer than you’re going to be an engineer - you might as well take the time to get good at it.

Once a week. Depends on your parish but our group met once a week. A few times we didn’t bother having class, we just went to Mass together.

But here I am. One year strong and still perfectly content to be Catholic. But by the grace of God go I.

 

[jmcrae]

Once a week. Depends on your parish but our group met once a week. A few times we didn’t bother having class, we just went to Mass together.

But here I am. One year strong and still perfectly content to be Catholic. But by the grace of God go I.

Praise God!

 

[Khalid]

I can relate to the post that contains the PM – partly anyway.

I do not have any allusions about mystical and very personal happenings when one receives (or in my case, will receive) Holy Communion. Maybe I have been reading too much Graham Greene. I am prepared for God’s “silence” (I know I am going to taste unleavened bread and wine). At least in the superficial way of an outward significant sign: God is, usually, much more subtle than that. I think this is part of having a grown-up faith. A bad definition, I know.

But I confess that I do not find the liturgical settings for the OF of the Mass moving (at least the way they are presented in my parish). Of course, that feeling is tied to superficial sentiment on my part. As a Protestant (I suppose I still am in the technical sense of the term), I have already experienced the upside (and downside) of having a worship service linked, in large part, to the ideal of Christian community and our relations with each other within the particular of participating in a somewhat structured liturgical setting. The focus becomes the priest, my neighbor, etc. Let me put it this way: the congregation in relation to Christ instead of Christ in relation to the Congregation.

However, the new Missal has helped me focus more on Christ during OF Mass (and I find my mind wonders less when I actively follow everything that is going on). Now I usually have a mad dash for my wallet during the Offertory.

With the EF, I find the supernatural element of the Mass palpable. It is glorious. I do not have to think so hard – that is the easiest way I can explain. Again, this is tied to superficial sentiment on my part. I truly think that St. Ignatius and St. Bonaventure are helping me rid myself of superficial sentiment and its relation to Christ vis-à-vis myself.

I know that one form of the Mass is not “better” than the other in the sense of the normal use of the word. But the Ordinary Form leaves me cold while the Extra Ordinary Form leaves me warm. And I am just not able to attend an EF Mass every Sunday – two hours to the nearest Church.

I think this sentiment (kitsch) is tied to being a Protestant. But I may be wrong?

I was a Muslim, and then an Orthodox, and I get nothing from the OF mass as it’s normally celebrated (e.g. with guitar) either. I also attend either the Tridentine mass or the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom (Melkite rite and Greek Orthodox).

I can’t tell from whence it comes, as being a Muslim, the focus is entirely on Allah, but the service isn’t even a service per se - it’s a bunch of men kneeling together in a very, very sparse room, and then maybe a sermon on the Shariah or taqwa at the end or before the beginning. As an Orthodox, the liturgy is more palpably divine than anything the Latin rite has to offer except for a sung Tridentine High Mass (and, also, the Byzantine church architecture is amazing, especially compared to conciliar Catholic churches - all of the gold, marble, stained glass, painted icons, and iconostasis combine to make the place seemingly glow with golden, otherworldly divine light (which is visible even in photographs).

Whether it was the plain worship style of Muslims or the ornate style of Orthodox that got me, I don’t know. It’s not about the language as language, as I can understand the Coptic rite (Arabic and Coptic), the Byzantine rite (Greek), the Latin rite (English), and the Tridentine rite (Latin), although the singing nature of the Liturgy of Chrysostom sometimes makes the Greek hard for me to follow. For some people it may be about the language used (and it is even for me to a point, because Greek, Latin, Coptic, and Arabic are much more euphonic than the Germanic cacophony of English, especially when the rites were originally written in Greek or Latin; they have cadence, rhythm, sometimes rhyme, so on; translated, they sound like translations, beyond the inherent phonic superiority of those languages, especially Greek and Latin*).

*Technically, Arabic is probably the most euphonic of all when it’s set to music and rhymed, but the style of it reminds me much of Islam now, with the style of singing specifically, high-pitched (which now sounds to me like screeching instead of angels’ song), so I have an irrational aversion to it used in liturgical settings.