RCIA question...the "experience" thing

[St_John]

I have to say this, to this very day I never have heard of anyone at my parish getting any heads up on any aspect of RCIA anything.
It was time to eat doughnuts say a prayer listen to happy talk, learn zippo about anything, get to know all the people there and most were there because one was getting married in the Church.
If I dared to ask any questions about the Catholic faith, it was as if I came from the moon. No one asked any questions and watched the clock. Our instruction was basically that all religions are great! Religion is a good thing!
I am so glad I will still have religion in becoming a Catholic!
Lets get chocolate doughnuts next week!
The woman leading it interrupted the Priests when they popped in anytime they wanted to teach anything. She did not like instruction!
So I just sorta smiled and counted the time down doughnut after doughnut and tried to get some instruction on the side by the Priest that had his head on straight and was not a relativism pusher. No one told us what to expect on the big day, what would happen, how long it would be, only where it would be and what time. That was it.
Now its run by a Priest who is a bit liberal with his theology and makes statements that are totally contrary to any Catholic teaching.
he also laughs at me when I confess sins saying: you dont “buy into that do you”?
I dont know how much longer that parish is going to be able to get away with this.
So that was my “experience” be happy you are not in my old shoes.
It could be worse.

This is the sad state of affairs in many parishes. I had a friend who went through a similar experience. They turned RCIA into a feel good, sixties rap session

 

[puzzleannie]

there is no need to “rehearse” for the rites, but the purpose of the Rite of Acceptance is for the inquirer to formally ask the Church to admit him to the Order of Catechumens, and state his intention to prepare for the sacraments of initiation and ask for instruction in Catholic faith and practice. In order to give “informed consent” he must give evidence that he has arrived at that decision freely and understands what he is asking and why. Some RCIA directors confuse “rehearsal” with “preparation”. For instance, if sponsors and candidates “rehearse” the signing in class, the actual experience does lose immediacy and impact, it is enough to tell them what will happen. However, if the catechist, director, pastoral team member and inquirer have not together discerned if the inquirer is ready for this step (which by the way also means all issues that would be barriers to initiation, such as waiting for annulment etc. have been resolved) then the Rof A should NOT be celebrated. In no case should it be “automatic” for all members of a class to celebrate at a set time.

 

[jc-servant]

I’m so sorry for everyone who is having or who had a bad experience in RCIA. I’m a convert who became a sponsor in part because I wanted to share the wonderful journey that I had in joining the faith. I know that my parish is blessed with a team of orthodox teachers, but I had no idea the problems elsewhere were so widespread.

We all (sponsors, candidates, catechumens, Catholic candidates and auditors) get a schedule for the entire year right through Easter and then mystagogia up front. No surprises. We get handouts, explanations, demonstrations and you name it, sometimes more than once for those who were not paying attention the first time or two. A running joke is the repeated Q & A during Lent of “When is Easter Vigil?” because we had a guy miss it one year and show up Easter Sunday morning at 10am mass wondering where everyone was. Not funny for him, but no one has missed it since!

For those who are having a really awful time, you might check around your diocese and see if there is a better program close enough to drive. I drove close to 30 miles each way during RCIA to attend a good program in my sponsor’s parish (now my parish) rather than attend near my home at that time.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I was disappointed with RCIA. The guy I sponsored was too. One of our beefs was with the rites (welcoming, acceptance, etc.) BIG DISCLAIMER: I have no complaint with the rites in and of themselves! It is the lack of explanation about it beforehand that bugs us.

The RCIA directors were not forthcoming about what the rite was or what was going to happen. The argument being that an explanation would ruin the experience. So the day of the rite rolls around and a bunch of baffled candidates and catechumens walk into the church and walk out just as baffled. Then we are asked silly questions about our experience. All one needed to say was that in the rite the sponsors would say something about us and that there would be prayers and blessings said.

I’m not the only one. I have heard several people on this forum complain about this. When a friend of mine from the East Coast said his friend had the same problem, I realized this is something on a national level.

My question: Where is this coming from? I’ve looked through the RCIA documents and don’t see anything about turning the rites into a purely experiencial thing, and certainly nothing about being aloof or coy when someone asks what it is and what is going to happen.

So it is coming from somewhere and I would like to find its source or sources and work to crush this unseemly exercise in esotericism like a bug.

Thanks and God bless.

John Paul II:

catechesis is built on a certain number of elements of the Church’s pastoral mission that have a catechetical aspect, that prepare for catechesis, or that spring from it. These elements are: the initial proclamation of the Gospel or missionary preaching through the kerygma to arouse faith, apologetics or examination of the reasons for belief, experience of Christian living, celebration of the sacraments, integration into the ecclesial community, and apostolic and missionary witness. Catechesi Tradendae]

Experience is a part of our faith, and so it ought to be among the elements of our catechesis. However, many parishes have made it ALL into experience because they lack the skills to address the other elements John Paul II listed above.

 

[chotock]

Does anyone have a good explaination of the Rites that one could give their Catechumen or Candidate?

 

[jmcrae]

Somewhere I think there is a guidebook or something like that that is encouraging directors that preserving the experience is so important that they should deflect attempts to find out about it.

Yes, you’re right - the North American Institute on the Catechumenate, which is the body responsible for training RCIA leaders in the United States and Canada, puts quite a lot of emphasis on the “experience” idea. They even say that the participants shouldn’t come to the Easter Vigil rehearsal - only the sponsors should go, so that the candidates don’t feel as though they’ve already been initiated after the rehearsal.

In a way, they may have a point. I used to explain the Rites quite thoroughly to people, and then they wouldn’t even show up on the day, they were so freaked out. (The term “exorcism,” in particular, has an off-putting effect on people - I no longer tell people that they will be undergoing a minor exorcism, because if they don’t get offended (what - the Church thinks I have a demon in me? Harrrumph!!) then they get visions of people flying around the room, or whatever. So, now I just say, “The priest will say some special prayers on your behalf.” “What for?” “Because it’s nice to pray that things will go well for you at this time.” )

 

[Andruschak]

I I’m not the only one. I have heard several people on this forum complain about this. When a friend of mine from the East Coast said his friend had the same problem, I realized this is something on a national level.

My question: Where is this coming from? I’ve looked through the RCIA documents and don’t see anything about turning the rites into a purely experiencial thing, and certainly nothing about being aloof or coy when someone asks what it is and what is going to happen.

So it is coming from somewhere and I would like to find its source or sources and work to crush this unseemly exercise in esotericism like a bug.

Thanks and God bless.

RCIA is a mess on the national, regional, and local levels (opinion). Even if, or especially if, you are a knowledgable Candidate rather then a catecuman.

Yup, I had that big MYSTERY awaiting me also, which turned out to be the Rite Of Signing. I still have no idea if Candidates were supposed to be Signed as were the Catecumans, but I was Signed. Frankly, I was expecting A Bigger Deal.

 

[puzzleannie]

Yes, you’re right - the North American Institute on the Catechumenate, which is the body responsible for training RCIA leaders in the United States and Canada, puts quite a lot of emphasis on the “experience” idea. )

the NA Forum is NOT the official body responsible for training RCIA catechists, but for 30 years they have effectively been the only game in town. now there is an alternative, the Association for Catechumenal Ministry, which has set the new gold standard in training RCIA directors and catechists and in producting participant resources. you may view and purchase their materials at ltp.org.

the Forum is quite right, theological, however in stressing that the Rites themselves are formative, and preparation for the Rite should not minimize or understate the importance of the Rite itself. There seems to be some error current, analogous the the attitude of some fundamentalist denominations re baptism: that the rite is only a symbolic act to emphasize a change that has already happened to the individual. The Rites, like all liturgy, are efficacious words and actions the effect what they say.

There must be catechesis and mystagogy after each of the Rites to teach what just happened and reflect on it. This is so critical, and so overlooked in current practice, that this failure to teach the rite after the right (including and especially mystagogy after Easter) that it is the biggest and maybe only real reason why RCIA so often fails to produce Catholics who remain faithful, and why so many initiates are lost within 5 years following their reception into the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

the NA Forum is NOT the official body responsible for training RCIA catechists, but for 30 years they have effectively been the only game in town. now there is an alternative, the Association for Catechumenal Ministry, which has set the new gold standard in training RCIA directors and catechists and in producting participant resources. you may view and purchase their materials at ltp.org.

the Forum is quite right, theological, however in stressing that the Rites themselves are formative, and preparation for the Rite should not minimize or understate the importance of the Rite itself. There seems to be some error current, analogous the the attitude of some fundamentalist denominations re baptism: that the rite is only a symbolic act to emphasize a change that has already happened to the individual. The Rites, like all liturgy, are efficacious words and actions the effect what they say.

There must be catechesis and mystagogy after each of the Rites to teach what just happened and reflect on it. This is so critical, and so overlooked in current practice, that this failure to teach the rite after the right (including and especially mystagogy after Easter) that it is the biggest and maybe only real reason why RCIA so often fails to produce Catholics who remain faithful, and why so many initiates are lost within 5 years following their reception into the Church.

Good points.

I think a lot of the rushing, and a lot of the “head, not heart” stuff is also coming in response to the participants themselves.

RCIA is a journey, but who, born in the last 30-40 years, has ever been on a journey? We get on airplanes and arrive in Europe within two days; we get into our cars and arrive at Grandma’s in less than two hours.

A journey of two years is completely outside of our common experience, so when we tell people, “RCIA is a journey,” the response is, “Okay - how do I get the Concorde edition of this journey? Since I would like to be Catholic by this time tomorrow.” And people are continually complaining about the “touchy-feely” stuff (prayer experiences; unpacking personal reactions to the Rites, etc.) - they want the Baltimore Catechism and readings from St. Thomas Aquinas - and I think in a lot of cases, RCIA facilitators want to accomodate people and make them feel welcome, so they either cave in to a lot of this kind of reaction, instead of explaining to people why it needs to take two years, and why they need to process their experiences as well as learn the essentials of their Catechism, or they go completely overboard the other way, in an attempt to so immerse the participants in prayer and response, for the purpose of “making them” appreciate these things, that they never actually do get to the Catechesis portion of the process.

However, nobody in the Church has ever promised that RCIA wouldn’t be messy - it’s definitely messy - but it’s the best thing we have, and it’s the only thing that actually works, even a little bit.

 

[Andruschak]

However, nobody in the Church has ever promised that RCIA wouldn’t be messy - it’s definitely messy - but it’s the best thing we have, and it’s the only thing that actually works, even a little bit.

But the US Council Of Bishops made it QUITE CLEAR that qualified candidates did not need the full RCIA intended for catecumans.

This is not a matter of taking the Concorde to Europe, with or without the catecumans. It is about SOME Candidates already at the airport in Europe and just needing a short taxi drive to the Church.

Nope, they are shipped back across the Atlantic and told to take the slow boat to Europe with the catecumans.

And I thought the United States Postal Service was inflexable?

 

[jmcrae]

But the US Council Of Bishops made it QUITE CLEAR that qualified candidates did not need the full RCIA intended for catecumans.

That’s true. You just need private instruction with a priest.

Which you will not get from your RCIA team - you have to ask the priest directly.

The RCIA team doesn’t have the capability to arrange for private instructions: only the priest can.

But he has to be asked for this.

He is already very busy, and it isn’t going to occur to him to volunteer an extra two hours every week to do private instruction, if it looks as though you are doing RCIA, so you need to explicitly sit him down in a meeting and say, “Hi, I’m a well-educated Protestant who wants to convert to the Catholic faith. I understand that I need to arrange for private instructions, since RCIA is for unbaptized persons, and I noticed that they don’t have a Baptized Candidate stream in your program here at St. Whosthis Parish. So, when can we get started?”

You have to take command of your conversion process, and “hire on” the help that you need to meet your goals, rather than waiting for other people to figure out what you need and then give it to you.

 

[puzzleannie]

But the US Council Of Bishops made it QUITE CLEAR that qualified candidates did not need the full RCIA intended for catecumans.

?

candidates, baptized Christians, are not supposed to undergo the same rites as catechumens in any case, if, as the Forum urges in their programs, the RCIA directors themselves immerse themselves in the rites, and learn from the Rites, the language of the Church, and embrace the truth that the Church believes as the Church prays and vice versa (lex orandi lex credendi), they will realize this. For this alone, the Forum has done a good thing, this is what will save RCIA from the well-meaning people who wish to re-write the rites to suit themselves, and make them into something they are not, and make up their own quasi-rites.

if we are going to talk about RCIA please let us talk about what it really is and can be. Yes, the forum-ites are correct, it is experiential. But fortunately, they themselves and the writers and teachers who provide much of the catechetical material they promote are coming around to the realization that strong systematic catechesis must accompany real efficacious experience of ritual. Both elements must be in, from and of the mind of the Church, and it is failing here that most abuses arise.

The anomaly of a believing Christian who has been immersed in scripture through most of his life and has an mature, enduring personal relationship with Christ behind told to return to square one is ludicrous and insulting.

But as I have said many times before, for some reason impossible for me to identify, Catholics who know their faith and are strong in it are unwilling to obey the promise made at their baptism, and the directive they receive at the dismissal at every Mass to share their faith with others, so they do not participate actively in their parish’s catechetical and evangelical mission. That leaves one or two people in each parish carrying the burden that should be shared by all adults of the parish. So there is in effect only one “class” for adults who are anywhere in the process of initiation since there are no resources to give individual attention to individual needs.

That is unfortunately the situation in every “traditional orthodox” parish I have worked in. The parishes with an abundance of adults willing to be part of this process, so that “the rites can be done right” are unfortunately the more avant garde, heterodox parishes. The latter also tend to be the parishes without resident pastors, left to the ministrations of “pastoral administrators” who can be anyone from reliable deacons to reiki-practitioner nuns.

If that sounds like a harsh indictment of traditional Catholics it is intended to be.

 

[Andruschak]

You have to take command of your conversion process, and “hire on” the help that you need to meet your goals, rather than waiting for other people to figure out what you need and then give it to you.

Well, of course, if I had known back then what I know now, I should have gone to the priest, if his busy schedule permitted it. But four Catholic Churches in my area all said the same thing, that I had to go through the program of the catecumans.

Well, too late for THIS poor sucker. Rite of Acceptance, Rite of Signing, with Rite of Sending coming up. Maybe a conditional baptism along with the catecumans if the Church Of England cannot find my wartime baptismal certificate. The Triduum.

But I suppose I can do something about. They may ask for help in next year’s RCIA Program. I will make it quite clear that I am willing to work with Candidates who do not need the RCIA catecuman route. To check what needs to be updated, and have them confirmed at any Sunday Mass away from the Catecumans. To not be in any part of the catecuman process.

As for resources, besides catechismclass.com there are hundreds of websites with daily scriptures, bible commentary, catechism lessons, and who knows what else.

 

[puzzleannie]

But I suppose I can do something about. They may ask for help in next year’s RCIA Program. I will make it quite clear that I am willing to work with Candidates who do not need the RCIA catecuman route. To check what needs to be updated, and have them confirmed at any Sunday Mass away from the Catecumans. To not be in any part of the catecuman process.

thank you thank you God bless you, you would not happen to live in my parish by any chance.

all I will add, and I think I have mentioned this on harrry’s posts before, that you guys are there for the others in the class who do not have your background, you have your own gifts to bring (not the least of which is courage to challenge a catechist who is clearly WRONG in her teaching–in a very nice tone of voice of course).

please if the program you are in is not everything you have a right to expect please stick it out, for the benefit of those in the class who have not been blessed with what you already have.
then come back the next year as a sponsor, and the next year after that as a catechist, and your parish will be on the way to a good RCIA program that is everything the rites envision.

Also there is such a thing as negative learning, in rebutting or researching something that sounds wrong, we also learn, maybe even more than if we are just nodding our heads all the time.

I can also plead in my own defense I have bent over backwards and tied myself up in knots for 7 years trying to provide individual instruction to meet individual needs and with one or two notable exceptions most of those people I tried to accommodate simply did not cooperate, did not do the minimal amount of personal study I suggested with the follow-up (very time consuming on my part), and preferred to just “take the class” with everyone else. At least the folks “in the class” get everything they need, can ask questions and get answers right away, and I don’t have lingering doubts about whether we served them well.

We do, because my pastor insists, make sure the right people have the right rites at the right time.

 

[jmcrae]

Andruschak;

Were you talking directly to those four actual priests?

Because the secretaries and support staff are taught to direct everyone to the RCIA; they rely on those who know they need the priest to themselves ask to speak to the priest, so as to avoid unbaptized/uncatechized persons seeking to by-pass RCIA.

 

[puzzleannie]

Andruschak;

Were you talking directly to those four actual priests?

Because the secretaries and support staff are taught to direct everyone to the RCIA; they rely on those who know they need the priest to themselves ask to speak to the priest, so as to avoid unbaptized/uncatechized persons seeking to by-pass RCIA.

this is exactly the problem, the intake person is not supposed to be the parish secretary, but she has to know where to direct your phone call, and usually the pastor has a designated hitter, the “RCIA Person” to do those initial interview. Your proper status should be sorted out at that time, but the first phone call or office visit is not likely to get you right where you need to be.

For one thing, even though I do the extensive interview in the beginning prescribed by our diocese, people still hold back vital information that I don’t pry out of them until weeks or months later: I was baptized by being strewn with flower petals on a mountaintop in California by my hippie parents, this is my third marriage and all of my previous spouses had been married before, I have to stay JW because of my wife’s family but I need confirmation so we can baptize my brother’s baby. I am of course exaggerating but to make a point. the first thing I have to do is determine “where you are on the journey” (RCIA Person Lingo for whadya’all need). That is why I plug everyone into “Inquiry Period” for a few weeks when they first start out, so we get all this resolved, because it becomes a kind of shake down so we get people on the right track.

 

[puzzleannie]

Andruschak;
, so as to avoid unbaptized/uncatechized persons seeking to by-pass RCIA.

nobody who is not Catholic “bypasses RCIA” this is the means by which the Church initiates unbaptized adults (those over the age of discretion) or brings the baptized non-Catholic into full communion with the Catholic Church.

What can be “by-passed” or rather, individually structured to meet individual needs, is the catechetical sessions and methods used to prepare the individual for the Rites. What can also be bypassed are rites that are not prescribed for that particular individual. What cannot be “by-passed” are the prescribed rites but the ritual book allows for every conceivable circumstance and it is ultimately the pastor’s judgment how, when and where these rites will be celebrated. NOT the “RCIA Person” unless the pastor IS that person.

 

[Andruschak]

nobody who is not Catholic “bypasses RCIA” this is the means by which the Church initiates unbaptized adults (those over the age of discretion) or brings the baptized non-Catholic into full communion with the Catholic Church.
.

My apologies. I guess I was misreading this…

@@@@

Preparation for Christians

The means by which those who have already been validly baptized become part of the Church differs considerably from that of the unbaptized.

Because they have already been baptized, they are already Christians; they are, therefore, not catechumens. Because of their status as Christians, the Church is concerned that they not be confused with those who are in the process of becoming Christians.

“Those who have already been baptized in another church or ecclesial community should not be treated as catechumens or so designated. Their doctrinal and spiritual preparation for reception into full Catholic communion should be determined according to the individual case, that is, it should depend on the extent to which the baptized person has led a Christian life within a community of faith and been appropriately catechized to deepen his or her inner adherence to the Church” (NSC 30).

For those who were baptized but who have never been instructed in the Christian faith or lived as Christians, it is appropriate for them to receive much of the same instruction in the faith as catechumens, but they are still not catechumens and are not to be referred to as such (NSC 3). As a result, they are not to participate in the rites intended for catechumens, such as the scrutinies. Even “[t]he rites of presentation of the creed, the Lord’s Prayer, and the book of the Gospels are not proper except for those who have received no Christian instruction and formation” (NSC 31).

For those who have been instructed in the Christian faith and have lived as Christians, the situation is different. The U.S. Conference of Bishops states, “Those baptized persons who have lived as Christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition and a degree of probation within the Catholic community should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the catechumenate” (NSC 31). For this reason, they should not share in the same, full RCIA programs that catechumens do.

The timing of their reception into the Church also is different. The U.S. Conference of Bishops states, "It is preferable that reception into full communion not take place at the Easter Vigil lest there be any confusion of such baptized Christians with the candidates for baptism, possible misunderstanding of or even reflection upon the sacrament of baptism celebrated in another church or ecclesial community . . . " (NSC 33).

Rather than being received on Easter Vigil, “[t]he reception of candidates into the communion of the Catholic Church should ordinarily take place at the Sunday Eucharist of the parish community, in such a way that it is understood that they are indeed Christian believers who have already shared in the sacramental life of the Church and are now welcomed into the Catholic Eucharistic community . . .” (NSC 32).

Christians coming into the Catholic Church must discuss with their pastor and/or bishop the amount of instruction needed and the time of their reception.

 

[puzzleannie]

yes you are quite right about the rites. RCIA encompasses and provides different rites for the unbaptized, and for candidates who have already been baptized, and stresses over and over again the importance of maintaining the distinction, they do not celebrate the same rites, except of course when it comes to the actual sacraments, but the are both participating in the Rites of Christian Initiation.

Their preparation for the rites can and must also take into account their differing status and needs.

RCIA is not just a shorthand for a class, or a method or prepartion, it refers to the Rites themselves, a liturgical action of the Church. RCIA also does not refer only or even primarily to the sacraments of initation celebrated at Easter with the unbaptized. It also refers to those sacraments celebrated at other times for candidates. It is still RCIA.

However truncated the period of preparation may be for someone who is 75, 80 or 90 % of the way “on the journey” already, there are rites, both optional and mandatory, but these persons also participate in RCIA, that is the way they are brought into full communion with the Catholic Church.

It is an abuse to force a baptized Christian to participate in rites reserved for the unbaptized. But the RCIA provides rites for those baptized candidates, and their reception into the Church throug profession of faith, confirmation and eucharist are RCIA-Rites of Christian Initiation–as are the preliminary rites, like rite of welcoming, some of which are optional, some necessary. A person who will be having a conditional baptism is a special case, and the rites provide for it.

 

[jmcrae]

nobody who is not Catholic “bypasses RCIA” this is the means by which the Church initiates unbaptized adults (those over the age of discretion) or brings the baptized non-Catholic into full communion with the Catholic Church.

No, of course not, but what I mean is, the secretary doesn’t mention the option of private instruction with a priest for those who already know most of what they need to know, since you always get people who think that knowing how to make the sign of the cross and the address of the Church is “everything I need to know about being Catholic” - it just cuts down on wasted time if everyone is directed to the two-year RCIA process - those who “know everything they need to know” will already know to contact the priest in person to discuss a shortened, private Catechesis period, and they can look out for themselves. Someone needing their hand held to be told what to do, needs the full RCIA process (applied appropriately, of course!), anyway. That’s what I was getting at.