RCIA Sponsor Question (required to attend two masses a week)

  • Thread starter Thread starter JHC
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That happens at my Parish, sponsors leave with candidates. We make a ceremony of it. Inviting them to the front for blessing. The sponsors can get communion outside mass by a communion minister giving it to them in the presbytery right after mass. Just like the ministers go to homes of the sick to give communion. Esp if the sponsors work during the week and cant attend daytime masses.

Could you suggest that? Its only 5 minutes for a special minister after mass.
Sounds like a wonderful idea. Perhaps we could also just have people leave to have a picnic or sit in their cars after the homily and have EMHCs bring the Eucharist to their blanket or car windows. Might even be better to just have a drive through window where EMHCs distribute without people having to get out of their cars.

Sorry for sounding snarky but the Liturgy of the Eucharist is IMPORTANT. We do not have the liturgy of the Word and then receive communion, but rather there is a completely different liturgy in the Eucharist. If it was just about receiving the Eucharist then the priest could simply pre-consecrate the Body and Blood and leave after the homily to let EMHCs distribute. We don’t do that because there is a mystery that ties us to the upper room and to that eternal moment on Calvary. It is a miracle that is the center of our faith. If one cannot be present for various reasons it is a tragedy and receiving the Eucharist apart from being present is a balm that does not replace what is lost. In many daily masses there are already enough consecrated hosts for the priest and the congregation, and yet the priest still consecrates at least one at every mass. If it was just about receiving the Eucharist then it would make sense to skip it if there are enough host for distribution.

I know that you and others are truly trying to be helpful, but it kills me that one of the most Holy and beautiful parts of the Mass is reduced to not a big deal since you can receive later. It’s a little like saying being their at your child’s birth or at your parent’s bedside when they die isn’t a big deal since you can hold the baby later or visit their grave afterwards. Neither of those things are remotely like being present at the event. Please everyone remember that in the Eucharistic liturgy we encounter the whole of salvation in a single moment. The event is just not receiving the Eucharist, but is being in the upper room and being at Christ’s side as he gives up his life for the remission of our sins.

It makes me heart sick that people don’t understand how we encounter the divine in such a unique way in the Eucharistic Liturgy.
 
Sounds like a wonderful idea. Perhaps we could also just have people leave to have a picnic or sit in their cars after the homily and have EMHCs bring the Eucharist to their blanket or car windows. Might even be better to just have a drive through window where EMHCs distribute without people having to get out of their cars.

Sorry for sounding snarky but the Liturgy of the Eucharist is IMPORTANT. We do not have the liturgy of the Word and then receive communion, but rather there is a completely different liturgy in the Eucharist. If it was just about receiving the Eucharist then the priest could simply pre-consecrate the Body and Blood and leave after the homily to let EMHCs distribute. We don’t do that because there is a mystery that ties us to the upper room and to that eternal moment on Calvary. It is a miracle that is the center of our faith. If one cannot be present for various reasons it is a tragedy and receiving the Eucharist apart from being present is a balm that does not replace what is lost. In many daily masses there are already enough consecrated hosts for the priest and the congregation, and yet the priest still consecrates at least one at every mass. If it was just about receiving the Eucharist then it would make sense to skip it if there are enough host for distribution.

I know that you and others are truly trying to be helpful, but it kills me that one of the most Holy and beautiful parts of the Mass is reduced to not a big deal since you can receive later. It’s a little like saying being their at your child’s birth or at your parent’s bedside when they die isn’t a big deal since you can hold the baby later or visit their grave afterwards. Neither of those things are remotely like being present at the event. Please everyone remember that in the Eucharistic liturgy we encounter the whole of salvation in a single moment. The event is just not receiving the Eucharist, but is being in the upper room and being at Christ’s side as he gives up his life for the remission of our sins.

It makes me heart sick that people don’t understand how we encounter the divine in such a unique way in the Eucharistic Liturgy.
So, have you attended Sunday mass where the RCIA prospects and sponsors are right there in Mass until the point they are invited up for the blessing and head over to the Presbytery for class?
Its usually after the Baptisimal families head to the Alter for the introduction naming and asking for baptism for their infants.

Or

Have you attended communion in a residential care unit where the patient is too ill to get out of bed to attend Mass? And lives for the Pastoral Care Team to visit with Communion?

The consecrated Host is taking Jesus into our hearts internally when ingested. It is the biggest miracle on earth. And occurs constantly across the globe. To deny that to a sponsor good enough to give up time for a new convert is not what the Church is about. Would you have a sponsor potentially not taking Holy Communion for months during RCIA season?
All Plenary Indulgences specify Holy Communion. We can take it as a pretty important aspect of our faith.

What do you believe Jesus would see as more important? An opportunity to sponsor a convert, and save a soul, or saying nope cant sponsor because I have to leave mass with the candidates, and dont want to miss Holy Communion for months on end.
 
quote Originally Posted by PJM
BUT faith formation is CRITICAL and Aug to Easter is NOT sufficient time to actually teach our Catholic Faith, so my recommendation is just go with it IF at all possible.end quote
I’m not sure I agree with the sentiment behind this statement. I don’t believe RCIA is intended to be a comprehensive instruction on the Catholic faith - it’s seems to me more of an introduction to the faith, a foundation given to thoughtful, mature, willing adults who should be taking initiative to learn on their own between classes and who should be continuing their formation even after their initiation. It’s been almost two years since I came into the church, and I still read voraciously, and frequently go to my pastor with countless questions and inquiries. I know not everyone is like that, but I don’t really think RCIA is intended to be “Catholicism for Dummies”.
I’m in complete agreement with this highlighted position.

In my life’s experience though is the fact that there is no mandatory mythologa of formalized advanced faith formation. This absolute need is often left up to the Newly Elected who may or may not advantage the need.

You’re example though is an excellent example of what ought to be done by all

GBY

And Thanks
Patrick
 
So, have you attended Sunday mass where the RCIA prospects and sponsors are right there in Mass until the point they are invited up for the blessing and head over to the Presbytery for class?
Its usually after the Baptisimal families head to the Alter for the introduction naming and asking for baptism for their infants.
Yep, and I eventual talked to the pastor about the abuse of requiring candidates to be dismissed. Only catechumen or uncatechized candidates are supposed to be dismissed.
Have you attended communion in a residential care unit where the patient is too ill to get out of bed to attend Mass? And lives for the Pastoral Care Team to visit with Communion?
Again, yes. I have also brought communion to those in hospice who are dying as well as having spent hours praying with people who have just learned they only have a few days or weeks to live. I have also walked with the body of those I was just praying with to the hearse.
The consecrated Host is taking Jesus into our hearts internally when ingested. It is the biggest miracle on earth. And occurs constantly across the globe. To deny that to a sponsor good enough to give up time for a new convert is not what the Church is about. Would you have a sponsor potentially not taking Holy Communion for months during RCIA season?
All Plenary Indulgences specify Holy Communion. We can take it as a pretty important aspect of our faith.
What do you believe Jesus would see as more important? An opportunity to sponsor a convert, and save a soul, or saying nope cant sponsor because I have to leave mass with the candidates, and dont want to miss Holy Communion for months on end.
Nothing you stated says anything about the importance of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. There is a reason it is often called the Heart of the Mass. If the liturgy is not important then please explain why we don’t simply distribute the reserved hosts when there are already enough in the tabernacle. Why must a priest consecrate the Eucharist in every Mass if that half of the Mass isn’t really important since receiving is the only thing that is important?

Taking the Eucharist to those who cannot attend does not in anyway reduce the importance of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. That is the exception and not something that is considered to be preferable. The miracle is not in receiving, but in Christ becoming fully present at the consecration. We receive grace from the miraculously transformed element, but the grace comes from the miracle and is not the miracle in of itself.

I am not saying that they should not receive, but rather that the RCIA team needs to pull it’s head out of their rear ends and perhaps not be teaching the Faith if they think that telling Catholics to attend the liturgy of the Word and then requiring them to leave at the Heart of the Mass is acceptable. When people here say “it’s not a big deal” to miss the Liturgy of the Eucharist as long as you can receive, then it tells me that they have almost no understanding of that part of our faith.
 
A). The rite of dismissal is only for catechumens, not candidates. Your wife is a candidate and therefore should not be leaving the Mass at all.

B). Catholics are never dismissed, that includes spouses, sponsors, etc. the only person who leaves with the catechumens is the leader who will break open the word.

C). The choice of sponsor is always that of the catechumen or candidate and if they meet canonical requirements these sorts of burdens cannot be placed on them as a condition of being a sponsor. A sponsor need not be local, they could travel in on the day of reception and confirmation (or baptism and confirmation for the Elect) and legitimately be the sponsor. It is certainly wonderful when a sponsor can attend catechesis sessions, mass, retreats, etc, with their candidate or catechumen- but it is not required and cannot be required.
 
So, have you attended Sunday mass where the RCIA prospects and sponsors are right there in Mass until the point they are invited up for the blessing and head over to the Presbytery for class?
If they are being dismissed go “go to class” this is not in keeping with the Rite or the purpose of dismissal. Dismissal is only for catechumens and only to reflect more deeply on the readings of the day.
What do you believe Jesus would see as more important? An opportunity to sponsor a convert, and save a soul, or saying nope cant sponsor because I have to leave mass with the candidates, and dont want to miss Holy Communion for months on end.
This is being mischaracterized as about receiving communion when it is in fact about the Catholic fulfilling the Sunday obligation, which one does not do one leaves the mass. Without a dispensation it is indeed grave matter.
 
Yep, and I eventual talked to the pastor about the abuse of requiring candidates to be dismissed. Only catechumen or uncatechized candidates are supposed to be dismissed.

**Dismissed? Nope, its lesson time, at the table in the Presbyrtery. The Sponsors and RCIA candidates leave with the Gospel the Priest just used for the Mass readings. Thats how special it is in our Cathedral.
And I am quite sure the Bishop, and Priests know what they are doing. Afterall, they do go to Priest school for a few years! ***

Again, yes. I have also brought communion to those in hospice who are dying as well as having spent hours praying with people who have just learned they only have a few days or weeks to live. I have also walked with the body of those I was just praying with to the hearse.

*** Then you understand the real value of bringing Holy Communion to those unable to attend Mass, you must be a pastoral care volunteer yourself***

Nothing you stated says anything about the importance of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. There is a reason it is often called the Heart of the Mass. If the liturgy is not important then please explain why we don’t simply distribute the reserved hosts when there are already enough in the tabernacle. Why must a priest consecrate the Eucharist in every Mass if that half of the Mass isn’t really important since receiving is the only thing that is important?

***Why are you trying to turn this into a discussion of how much importance I place in my God and my worship? If you wish to ask my beliefs or practices and what I believe important…Start a new thread. ***

Taking the Eucharist to those who cannot attend does not in anyway reduce the importance of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. That is the exception and not something that is considered to be preferable. The miracle is not in receiving, but in Christ becoming fully present at the consecration. We receive grace from the miraculously transformed element, but the grace comes from the miracle and is not the miracle in of itself.

there is also a big miracle in receiving. Think about it. What are you actually eating and drinking. As to receiving Graces, that is a private thing for God to decide. Isnt it enough just to be joining our heart with the heartof Jesus, our blood with the blood of Jesus. We are but humble sinners, really unworthy of being lifted to that level

I am not saying that they should not receive, but rather that the RCIA team needs to pull it’s head out of their rear ends and perhaps not be teaching the Faith if they think that telling Catholics to attend the liturgy of the Word and then requiring them to leave at the Heart of the Mass is acceptable. When people here say “it’s not a big deal” to miss the Liturgy of the Eucharist as long as you can receive, then it tells me that they have almost no understanding of that part of our faith.
Who ever here, said whether its a big deal, or not, besides you? I feel your real issue is how RCIA is taught.

I was thinking about this in Mass this morning. Best I can come up with for giving sponsors Holy Communion after Mass is two reasons

LOVE
INCLUSION.

and then of course, an example to the RCIA candidate how the community cares, includes, values.
 
If they are being dismissed go “go to class” this is not in keeping with the Rite or the purpose of dismissal. Dismissal is only for catechumens and only to reflect more deeply on the readings of the day.

This is being mischaracterized as about receiving communion when it is in fact about the Catholic fulfilling the Sunday obligation, which one does not do one leaves the mass. Without a dispensation it is indeed grave matter.
Again , I am sure the Bishop and Priests know what they are doing when they ask for the sponsors and the RCIA candidates to come forward, in the Cathedral, give the sponsor the Gospel book that they just read the Gospel reading from, and send them off to learn.

And it is such a wonderful thing to watch, and very supportive to the RCIA group, to know we are all behind them.
And to see people eager to turn up and learn about God and become Catholic. Many of the RCIA people go on to take up volunteer positions in church, come to weekday masses , and practice a deep faith. We must be doing something right. Not churning out a bunch of lukewarm, only come to mass to fulfill an obligation Catholics.

With respect people, if my Bishop is doing this, and the Vicar - general, I have complete confidence no soul is being dammed to Hell over it.
 
Again , I am sure the Bishop and Priests know what they are doing when they ask for the sponsors and the RCIA candidates to come forward, in the Cathedral, give the sponsor the Gospel book that they just read the Gospel reading from, and send them off to learn.
Since the church gives us a book which specifically states catechumens, you would think so. But apparently not.
 
Since the church gives us a book which specifically states catechumens, you would think so. But apparently not.
Found this thread from 2012 discussing this issue. For those not baptised.
Those who leave to learn about the Gospel readings ‘breaking the book open’ are not baptised, except one man, who was baptised but has not had the sacraments, and leaves with his unbaptised family. They will all hopefully become fully fledged Catholics this year.

Interesting read as to the why and How.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=687144
 
Hi

My wife is currently enrolled in RCIA.

Right now they are required to attend mass as a group with their sponsors, but then the candidates leave as a group before the Eucharist to go have another meeting, but the sponsors stay for the Eucharist.

Yesterday the sponsors were informed they will now also be required to leave mass before the Eucharist so they will have to attend another mass to receive the Eucharist. They also have a two-hour long meeting before mass. This will be for two months.

This seems a bit overbearing to me. My wife’s sponsor is kind of in a panic. She is already attending a different parish to be with my wife for this. She is afraid to speak up as not to cause conflict.

Any advice?

Thank you
THINK ABOUT IT:)

1407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church’s life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church.

1074 “The liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; it is also the font from which all her power flows.” It is therefore the privileged place for catechizing the People of God. “Catechesis is intrinsically linked with the whole of liturgical and sacramental activity, for it is in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, that Christ Jesus works in fullness for the transformation of men.”

1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”

So is twice a week SOOOOOOO bad:shrug:
 
That doesn’t seem a reasonable consideration of the sponsor. Talk to the director of the RCIA process or the pastor.
 
If every RCIA did this then it would keep a lot of people from being sponsors. Most people have to work, many of us don’t live near our friends and family and would struggle with a weekly 2 hour session and having to fit in another mass. It may leave some candidates unable to find a sponsor.
 
is twice a week SOOOOOOO bad:shrug:
If the person has the ability to go to Mass twice in one weekend, then I don’t suppose we’d be having this discussion. The OP clearly stated the sponsor is already traveling to another parish (maybe at some distance, we don’t know) to be at mass with her candidate. She is also presumably going to other events such as the classes and spending time with her candidate. We know nothing of the sponsor’s family or work responsibilities and how much of a sacrifice it is for her to do what she is doing, but the fact she is “panicking” says to me that more is going on in her life and she needs reassurance.

I think it’s highly uncharitable to respond the way you did, implying the woman is in the wrong for not being able to accommodate the unreasonable expectations of the RCIA leadership.

The woman is acting in charity by being the sponsor in the first place, she has no need to go to two masses if she cannot do so. She should go to the one mass and remain in the church for all of mass even if the candidates are dismissed (which they should not be, only catechumens should be dismissed and not with their sponsors).
 
Who ever here, said whether its a big deal, or not, besides you? I feel your real issue is how RCIA is taught.

I was thinking about this in Mass this morning. Best I can come up with for giving sponsors Holy Communion after Mass is two reasons

LOVE
INCLUSION.

and then of course, an example to the RCIA candidate how the community cares, includes, values.
None may have said it directly, but when people act like just receiving the Eucharist is the important thing then it leaves one to question their understanding of the purpose of the liturgy. When people say that being a sponsor is as important, if not more important, than attending the Liturgy of the Eucharist it down plays the importance of the Liturgy. Being a sponsor is important, else I would not have been one many times in the past. But people should never be put in the position where being a sponsor or being present at the Liturgy is even a concern. They should never be put at odds in the first place.

Think of the things that happen after the homily, when most RCIA is dismissed, and receiving the Eucharist. You have the creed, Lord’s prayer, mystery of Faith and elevation (Inc “Lord, I am not worthy …”), the institution narative, et cetera. These are some of the most sacred statements of our faith. It is why we used to call this the Mass of the Faithful. The readings and homily were to instruct, but the rites leading up to the Eucharist contained some of the deepest and most sacred prayers. They are the perpetual statements of our faith, love and devotion to Christ.

When we kick out any of the baptized (Catholic or not) it is an offense to their dignity as members of the Body of Christ. It is to say, “you may not join us in these most sacred prayers”. That may not be the intent, but that is what happens. It is to seperate the Body of Christ in a most undignified way. It doesn’t matter how much ceremony or pomp that goes into dismissal.

How RCIA is taught is not the point (I make no bones about where I think RCIA misses the boat). It is all about diminishing the role of the liturgical rites to nothing but receiving the Eucharist. There is zero reason to send the sponsors out to “break open the word”. The purpose is to further instruct the unbaptized (or uncatechized) in the faith. It was not supposed to be just some type of reflection on the readings. To dismiss a fully initiated Catholic to learn, rather than to profess, the faith is simply to not understand how these things fit together.

I can tell you in my interactions with clergy since I’ve entered formation as a Deacon, that many do not give a ton of thought to RCIA and how it is conducted. Many turn it over to the DRE and rarely question what they say. Many of the clergy have had their eyes opened as they have talked to those of us who are converts. I know a couple pastors and deacons that have made changes in the last 2 years as a result of conversations with us. Having the perspective of converts that went through RCIA has made them understand it from a different perspective.

While I trust our bishops and pastors, that does not mean they can’t have blind spots. If leaders never listen to what people found helpful and harmful (or not helpful) about RCIA, then it doesn’t serve it’s purpose of providing a foundation in the faith. Approximately 60% of people from my wife or my RCIA classes no longer attended Mass after 5 years, but abut 85% of people we know that did private instruction without any of the rites were still attending after 5 years. To me that implies that RCIA, in of itself, is not the solution… but that is a topic for another thread.
 
RCIA is mistakenly cast as a “program” of education.
It is that, but in it’s full sense it is a “process” of welcoming into the Christian community, and into the rich sacramental life offered by the Church. And this is the way the bishops of the US have explicitly proposed the RCIA.
In that process a person comes to know Christ through the Church.

Catechesis is a big part of that obviously, but if it’s only that, a person is more likely to fall away quickly.
Many new Catholics have fallen away because after they have come into the Church they find no place in the Body of Christ.

There are many reasons, but one of them is the refusal of more established Catholics to cede ministry to new people. New participants in the Body need to have a place for their ministry to flourish. They came to the Church for a reason, that reason has to take real shape, not just remain a bunch of lessons.

Otherwise the “process” of RCIA may come to a grinding halt.
 
I would just talk to the leaders. Maybe they need the feedback. If nothing else, you can always stay. I would hate to be a jerk about it, but it might be better just to go to another Mass, or sit elsewhere.

Sponsers are not required to attend classes.
 
RCIA is mistakenly cast as a “program” of education.
It is that, but in it’s full sense it is a “process” of welcoming into the Christian community, and into the rich sacramental life offered by the Church. And this is the way the bishops of the US have explicitly proposed the RCIA.
In that process a person comes to know Christ through the Church.

Catechesis is a big part of that obviously, but if it’s only that, a person is more likely to fall away quickly.
Many new Catholics have fallen away because after they have come into the Church they find no place in the Body of Christ.

There are many reasons, but one of them is the refusal of more established Catholics to cede ministry to new people. New participants in the Body need to have a place for their ministry to flourish. They came to the Church for a reason, that reason has to take real shape, not just remain a bunch of lessons.

Otherwise the “process” of RCIA may come to a grinding halt.
BINGO

Educational bureaucrats have forgotten that you are welcoming a soul into the community of believers. We found the time after Easter somewhat empty, church ministries are winding down their schedules for the summer at which time nothing goes on. You are told to wait until September. We landed on are feet running, only to hit a wall. Luckily, apostolates and other Catholic organizations operate on a different schedule and we were able to plug in there. Spiritual growth outside a stagnant parish is healthier.
 
None may have said it directly, but when people act like just receiving the Eucharist is the important thing then it leaves one to question their understanding of the purpose of the liturgy. When people say that being a sponsor is as important, if not more important, than attending the Liturgy of the Eucharist it down plays the importance of the Liturgy. Being a sponsor is important, else I would not have been one many times in the past. But people should never be put in the position where being a sponsor or being present at the Liturgy is even a concern. They should never be put at odds in the first place.

Think of the things that happen after the homily, when most RCIA is dismissed, and receiving the Eucharist. You have the creed, Lord’s prayer, mystery of Faith and elevation (Inc “Lord, I am not worthy …”), the institution narative, et cetera. These are some of the most sacred statements of our faith. It is why we used to call this the Mass of the Faithful. The readings and homily were to instruct, but the rites leading up to the Eucharist contained some of the deepest and most sacred prayers. They are the perpetual statements of our faith, love and devotion to Christ.

When we kick out any of the baptized (Catholic or not) it is an offense to their dignity as members of the Body of Christ. It is to say, “you may not join us in these most sacred prayers”. That may not be the intent, but that is what happens. It is to seperate the Body of Christ in a most undignified way. It doesn’t matter how much ceremony or pomp that goes into dismissal.

How RCIA is taught is not the point (I make no bones about where I think RCIA misses the boat). It is all about diminishing the role of the liturgical rites to nothing but receiving the Eucharist. There is zero reason to send the sponsors out to “break open the word”. The purpose is to further instruct the unbaptized (or uncatechized) in the faith. It was not supposed to be just some type of reflection on the readings. To dismiss a fully initiated Catholic to learn, rather than to profess, the faith is simply to not understand how these things fit together.

I can tell you in my interactions with clergy since I’ve entered formation as a Deacon, that many do not give a ton of thought to RCIA and how it is conducted. Many turn it over to the DRE and rarely question what they say. Many of the clergy have had their eyes opened as they have talked to those of us who are converts. I know a couple pastors and deacons that have made changes in the last 2 years as a result of conversations with us. Having the perspective of converts that went through RCIA has made them understand it from a different perspective.

While I trust our bishops and pastors, that does not mean they can’t have blind spots. If leaders never listen to what people found helpful and harmful (or not helpful) about RCIA, then it doesn’t serve it’s purpose of providing a foundation in the faith. Approximately 60% of people from my wife or my RCIA classes no longer attended Mass after 5 years, but abut 85% of people we know that did private instruction without any of the rites were still attending after 5 years. To me that implies that RCIA, in of itself, is not the solution… but that is a topic for another thread.
It would be a good topic for a thread. My one day DIL is not baptised. I have suggested she consider baptism. I worry that RCIA may put her off. Even though it has a high retention rate in my Parish. This is my first Lent and Easter seaon for decades. One big adventure for me. And to see the adult baptisms and first sacraments will be great.

With the ongoing Royal Commission, other questions might arise with this practice too. Especially within affected Parishes.
 
BINGO

Educational bureaucrats have forgotten that you are welcoming a soul into the community of believers. We found the time after Easter somewhat empty, church ministries are winding down their schedules for the summer at which time nothing goes on. You are told to wait until September. We landed on are feet running, only to hit a wall. Luckily, apostolates and other Catholic organizations operate on a different schedule and we were able to plug in there. Spiritual growth outside a stagnant parish is healthier.
A lot of Catholics these days have to practice their faith alone. I think this ought to be talked about more openly at confirmation and RCIA and the candidates advised on how best to do this. It’s great to have a group of supportive Catholic friends in your life or an appropriate ministry at church to slot into but not everyone will find these.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top