The candidate/catechumen distinction is usually muted in practice–that’s my experience and seems to be a common one. Apart from logistical issues, I think catechumens sometimes take offense at being treated as if they are “less worthy” than baptized candidates–at least I remember one catechumen making a fuss about this in the RCIA program I was part of (yes, I know that’s not the point, but in our culture that is the way it is perceived by some).
That’s interesting, but I’m not sure where you get it. It may have been one reason, but I seriously doubt it was the main one.
But it isn’t a continuous tradition. It was revived after Vatican II, and my point is that it was revived in a context where the unbaptized were no longer excluded from attending Mass.
We and many others lack enough volunteers to handle the groups separately so the class comes and goes as one. Thus candidates and catechumens are dismissed together. The idea of this being embarrassing reoccurs but that is generated in the individual not from the Church.
then what would be the main reason?
Correct me if you see an error, however my understanding is the Bible as we know it was determined about 325AD, drafted about 340AD and affirmed about 370AD. If that is not correct explain the correct version. Between 30AD and 325AD isolated manuscripts, the Torah and tradition was all there was. I assume your point is the dismissals were not based in instructions from God? Which is true however the tradition was to dismiss, I am glad VII had the tradition reinstated.
Preventing the mysteries of the Faith from being profaned by the presence of people who were not initiated into them.
No. St. Peter refers to the letters of St. Paul as Scripture in 2 Peter. Irenaeus refers to a four-Gospel canon at the end of the second century. These were not “isolated manuscripts,” they were canonical texts being treated as such. Just because there were disputes about a few books does not mean that “there was no Bible.” This statement is not rationally defensible.
My point is that Tradition does indeed predate the Bible, in the sense that God’s people (in both Testaments) had oral teaching based on divine revelation before the teaching was written down. This teaching is Tradition, and it’s obviously true that this apostolic Tradition predates the New Testament. No thoughtful Protestant denies it (the question between Protestants and Catholics is whether all of the Tradition was written down or not).
How do you see that as different?
so tell me who had the Bible, where, and how was that Bible different from today’s Bible?
again it seems it is the use of the word tradition, I was not trying to imply that send out catechumens was an act of divine revelation, rather it is a traditional practice.
when the church was comprised of the original Apostles it seems to make no significant difference whether the action (traditions in the common definition) was Apostolic or Ecclesiastical
Are you floating the idea that they waited until it did not matter then instituted the practice (tradition in the common definition of the word)?
Why would a stranger accept Christian Baptism? Was John the Baptist baptizing Christians before Jesus arrived? (or Jews)
If Caesar starts killing Christians again we might consider it, until then all are welcome. Hey, what are you doing on Sunday?
That is one of the most important distinctions required by the Rite. It is said many times that everything must be done so that there is a very clear distinction always. The Un-baptized are not on the same level as a validly Baptized Christian, they are NOT members of the Church and have no right to the other Sacraments.
Instead of eliminating the dismissal why not create separate processes for two separate groups. Which is what we all should be working towards.
I thank you but I do not agree my experience is catechumens of this type are rare, and well catechized candidates are rarer! We live in an information age. The biggest issue I see by far is misunderstanding and or misaligning what they know. Believe me they all know Catholics do not ordain woman, pray to Mary, have infallible teachings, oppose abortion, oppose contraception, and have a Pope. The big problems are 1) They think they know why, 2) They are wrong on the details, 3) They are wrong on the reasons. You should look into the eyes of a Catholic candidate when we explain these issues to a catechumen.
For lack of better words I used the one I did. I didn’t mean their knowledge level or even spiritual level. I meant in their relationship to the Church.
Any time you can find me five more people to lead it., I am still trying to find two more sponsors for this year.
