RCIA Teacher's Statement: True?

[tizzidale]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

 

[Verita]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

Well, I don’t have any documentation, but I would say this is wrong. It is possible for those who follow another religion to make it to heaven. But that would be the exception, not the rule, and it would be by following the Word of God written on their hearts. I don’t know if John Paul II said this, but it is up to them to provide proof of that, not you to refute it.

I would point out to them that for some people, for example fanatic Muslims, following their religion to the best of their ability involves murder and sometimes suicide. For the Aztecs it involved mass human sacrifice. Are they suggesting these people will go to heaven? I don’t think so.

 

[OraEtLabora]

I’m not sure about JPII saying that exactly, and I didn’t hear the exact quote from the teacher, but with some minor revision to what you wrote I would say it’s on the right track. The Catholic church teaches that the usual and expected means of salvation is through unity with Christ, and that this comes through the Church, but that those who are never conciously or explicitly exposed to the Gospel, and who have lived in accordance with the natural law may be connected with Him in some special way known only to God. If an explicit and conscious knowledge were absolutely necessary, then children who die before they can understand the gospel would be lost. This also applies to people who are mentally disabled and don’t have the capacity to understand the gospel through ordinary use of language. Or again, what about those in world history who never had the chance to hear the gospel? Thus, the Catholic church’s position (which I love because it is so hopeful!) is that those who, through no fault of their own, have not been exposed to the teachings of the Church may be exposed to and united with Christ in a way known only to God because “the Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love” (Ps. 103:8). Of course, it is preferred that the person come to unity with Christ through the Church and seek salvation in the manner that we have been taught through the Gospels and the Magesterium of the Church. Therefore, we evangelize.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

If they claim John Paul II said it, then it is incumbent upon them to provide the source. I doubt they will be able to, as this is not congruent with teachings of Vatican II. Consequently, I have difficulty believing that the pope asserted such a thing.

In contrast to their claims, Vatican II affirmed, in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium (Light of Nations):

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) … Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely ***seek God **and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) (Lumen Gentium, 16)

[Footnotes:]
(18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.
(19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72.

Vatican II purposefully included footnotes 18 & 19 within Lumen Gentium so this teaching would be more clearly understood in the authentic sense intended by the council. What is that intended sense?

With regard to the non-Catholic religions which are “related in various ways to the people of God,” does this mean they are all therefore saved by their own non-Catholic religion? Certainly not. Observe…

Footnote 18 explicitly cites the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, which states,

“Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3)

Does this teaching therefore mean that all sincere non-Christians are saved, whatever their faith or lack of it? Such an interpretation of Catholic doctrine is untenable, given the context of St. Thomas’ teaching regarding what “in the Church potentially” means.

St. Thomas, in the same article of the Summa explains the various ways people are related to the Church:

We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in act, but as they are in potentiality. Nevertheless, some are in potentiality who will never be reduced to act, and some are reduced at some time to act…Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ
(ibid.)

 

[itsjustdave1988]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

If they say he said it, they should provide the source.

This is not congruent with Vatican II, however, so I have difficulty believing that he said it.

Vatican II affirmed, in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium (Light of Nations):

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) … Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely ***seek God **and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) (Lumen Gentium, 16)

[Footnotes:]
(18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.
(19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72.

Vatican II purposefully included footnotes 18 & 19 within Lumen Gentium so this teaching would be more clearly understood in the authentic sense intended by the council. What is that intended sense?

With regard to the non-Catholic religions which are “related in various ways to the people of God,” does this mean they are all therefore saved by their own non-Catholic religion? Certainly not. Observe…

Footnote 18 explicitly cites the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, which states,

“Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3)

Does this teaching therefore mean that all sincere non-Christians are saved, whatever their faith or lack of it? Such an interpretation of Catholic doctrine is untenable, given the context of St. Thomas’ teaching regarding what “in the Church potentially” means.

St. Thomas, in the same article of the Summa explains the various ways people are related to the Church:

We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in act, but as they are in potentiality. Nevertheless, some are in potentiality who will never be reduced to act, and some are reduced at some time to act…Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ
(ibid.)

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I think some misunderstanding exist FYI

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

Remember there are groups

1. Catholics
2. former Catholics with knowledge of Catholism
3. People who do not “truly know” Catholism

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

tizzidale

…why evangelize?

Because Jesus told us to?

 

[marci]

“A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

WOW! Maybe I should become a Buddhist if the majority of them are going to heaven. Nope–scratch that–after I got there I’d have to be born again.

 

[jbuck919]

Official Catholic teaching is still nulla salus extra ecclesiam–no salvation outside the church. Only baptized Catholics in a state of grace or, through the circuitous route of purgatory those with only venial sin or forgiven but unpunished more serious sin can go to heaven and see God.

It is the draconian nature of this doctrine that makes it unpalatable to the modern mind, even the otherwise storngly orthodox one, because it appears to contradict the fundamental Christian idea that God is just. That is why it is common and understandable to posit salvation for all sorts of people who are not in, let us admit, that rather narrow category. “God is just.” That trumps “baptized and in a state of grace.” But I’m not sure how wise it is to engage in specifics. If I understand Buddhism at all, Nirvana has nothing to do with Heaven. In fact, the annihilation of death without reincarnation is a form of Nirvana, for the soul would be released for all time from the constraints of constant rebirth.

St. Thomas Aquinas proposed that hell was actually a form of God’s mercy, since the alternative was extinction. Buddhists, at least according to their own doctrine,prefer extinction to what they consider the various levels of “hell” that constitute earthly life.

 

[Genesis315]

From the Catechism of Pius X (1910):

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

St. Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) Moral Theology - (Bk. 6): “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called ‘of wind’ ‘flaminis’] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ‘flamen’]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon ‘Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato’ and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved *‘without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.’” *

 

[Genesis315]

As with everything, its a balance between presumption and despair. We don’t presume others will be saved without the Catholic faith–so we bring it to all–but we also don’t despair that all are necessarily lost if they do not get it since it is possible for them to be saved. Sadly, I think many modern Catholics fall into presumption.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Well, I don’t have any documentation, but I would say this is wrong. It is possible for those who follow another religion to make it to heaven. But that would be the exception, not the rule, and it would be by following the Word of God written on their hearts. I don’t know if John Paul II said this, but it is up to them to provide proof of that, not you to refute it.

I would point out to them that for some people, for example fanatic Muslims, following their religion to the best of their ability involves murder and sometimes suicide. For the Aztecs it involved mass human sacrifice. Are they suggesting these people will go to heaven? I don’t think so.

Me either

When JP2 came to Denver he exclaimed"Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life. He didn’t say through buddism if your good and you burn enough incense My father may invite you to his table even though you’ve engaged in wickedness like the house of Israel

 

[tizzidale]

As with everything, its a balance between presumption and despair. We don’t presume others will be saved without the Catholic faith–so we bring it to all–but we also don’t despair that all are necessarily lost if they do not get it since it is possible for them to be saved. Sadly, I think many modern Catholics fall into presumption.

I like this answer very much.

 

[Orionthehunter]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

I agree with most of what was said in response to this thread as it matches my understanding. However, I disagree with the thrust of the post. First of all, the first quote is not likely. I doubt that Pope John Paul II would make a judgement regarding a person’s ultimate eternal resting place. This is the exclusive perogative of God. Similarly, the post of the last person is especially wrong. Besides the statement itself, the context is wrong. We will not get to heaven through our acts as this person describes. It is by via our free-will response to His grace to love and serve Him that we MIGHT be invited to Heaven. While the acts might be an outward sign evidencing that we have responded with love to God, they themselves don’t prove anything regarding salvation.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

Official Catholic teaching is still nulla salus extra ecclesiam–no salvation outside the church. Only baptized Catholics in a state of grace or, through the circuitous route of purgatory those with only venial sin or forgiven but unpunished more serious sin can go to heaven and see God…

There is no Church teaching that “only baptized Catholics…can go to heaven and see God”. You made that up. It contradicts Cath. teaching as taught by Jesus through his Church:

“Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) … Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely ***seek God **and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) (Lumen Gentium, 16)”

Which is why Jesus said to listen to his Church, meaning the magisterium, otherwise there would be mass confusion, as evidenced by your version of the gospel and the versions of all the different Protestant denominations.

Joe

 

[Church_Militant]

if so - why evangelize?

Because all life is a progressive pursuit of the truth and Jesus is the Truth.
Pax tecum,

 

[JOE_OBERR]

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

As Jesus teaches through his Church, one can be saved without being Catholic, providing one is invincibly ignorant of the gospel. So it begs the third question - why evangelize?

There has been virtually no move in the past 40 or so years to evangelize in the US. It is difficult to name more than a few bishops or priests who have been at the forefront of evangelization in the West recently.

The reason is because we ignore what the popes have to say and don’t know what Jesus is trying to teach us through his popes on this topic. Unless we know why Jesus came to redeem us and what this redemption/salvation specifically means, then we have very little incentive to evangelize.

And since the bible is not a catechism it is useless to use it to try to glean the definition of redemption/salvation from it. Even once we understand what the recent popes have said about redemption and how it is the kernel and center of the Gospel, we have to know what the content of the Gospel is before we can evangelize.

Anyone know?

Joe

 

[CRW]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

Partial quote from “Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism” - “This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time”.27 The Council documents refer to those elements that are shared by the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches 28 on the one hand, and the Catholic Church and other Churches and ecclesial Communities on the other:29 “The Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation”.30

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello tizzydale,

Here is the document you are refering to.
The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, “FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE”:

“Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world.”

We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,The Church used to put it like this:

The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire “which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,” (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

 

[Genesis315]

Hello tizzydale,

Here is the document you are refering to.

The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, “FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE”:

“Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world.”

We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,The Church used to put it like this:

The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire “which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,” (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

And the Council of Florence (the Pope Eugene quote) is still true. The Council also defined that men enter the Church through Baptism–and the Council of Trent defined that it includes Baptism by desire too. It’s always best to read everything together in context and not just snippets.