RCIA Teacher's Statement: True?

[Nick_Jones]

“The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom.”

There is only one way by which to be saved…through Jesus and through Him alone. The pope has also erred in assuming that there are sincere seekers of God who might fail to find Him.

Matthew 7
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

John 14
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

 

[Genesis315]

There is only one way by which to be saved…through Jesus and through Him alone. The pope has also erred in assuming that there are sincere seekers of God who might fail to find Him.

Matthew 7
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

John 14
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

These actually support the popes views. Those who seek will find Him even if explicit knowlegde is not acquired in this temporal life–regardless of negligent evangelists or a lack of information.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples

No one is saved by “the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience.”

We only respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ by the grace of God… which causes the individual to recognize Jesus as Lord and acknowledge him as their Saviour.

Acts 4
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 

[Psalm45_9]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

I don’t think John Paul II actually said that but this isn’t compleatly heretical. The church does teach that those who do not know Christ through no fault of their own and live as good a life as is within their culture, then salvation is still possible for them. Note how I said it’s possible for this person to go to Heaven not that this person will go to Heaven.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The church does teach that those who do not know Christ through no fault of their own and live as good a life as is within their culture, then salvation is still possible for them.

It is always the fault of the individual who doesn’t know Christ that he or she doesn’t know Him. To say otherwise is to accuse God of thoughtlessness.

All of us know of God’s existence and thus all of mankind is without excuse. (Rom. 1:18-32) Because God has taken great care to create the universe in such a way as to make His existence known to us, we have the obligation to seek what we know is good (God). The bible also tells us that if we sincerely seek the truth, we will find it. (Matt. 7:7-11)

Is there any real “good” in a culture that has rejected the One God? If not, then it is misleading to speak of one who might “live as good a life as is within their culture”

 

[VociMike]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Change “lived that religion” to “followed the law of God written on each human heart”, and change “the vast majority of them will” to “we can hope that they too may be saved” and you’ll be closer to Catholic teaching.

Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

I’d love to hear your RCIA teachers answer that one.

 

[trogiah]

We have two teachers. One of them said last night, “Did you know that John Paul II said that if you belonged to another religion, and lived that religion to the best of your ability, then you would go to heaven?” Then the other piped up, “A buddhist in China who lives a good, holy life: feeds the hungry, heals the sick - the kind of life that Jesus would live, he will go to heaven. In fact, I suggest that the vast majority of them will.”

Firstly, did John Paul II say this? Secondly, does this reflect Catholic teaching? Thirdly, if so - why evangelize?

The RCIA teacher mentions “belonging to another religion” and that phrase deserves close examination. Consider how we identify someone who belongs to Christ. From Matthew chapter 7:

"By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So by their fruits you will know them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ "

I submit that a person who belongs to Christ is someone who lives their life as though they belong to Christ. Whether or not that person says “I belong to Christ” is of far less importance than whether or not they live their life following His example.

Jesus tells a very short parable about two sons. Both were told to go work in the field. One said “I am on my way” but never went. The other said “I will not” but later on thought better about it and went to work in the field. Jesus indicates that it was the second son who did his father’s will.

Peter, in his own ministry, needs a dream to help him reach the conclusion that God desired him to reach. From Acts 10

"Then Peter proceeded to speak and said,“In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. 35 Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.” Peter was slow to come to this understanding so we should not be supprised if other Popes did not fully comprehend this teaching throughout their own ministries.

So why evangelize?

If by evangelize you mean telling people that all they have to do is call on the name of Jesus and everything will be all right then perhaps we should not evangelize.

True evangelization involves spreading the Good News that God’s kingdom is at hand and God wishes to accept as His children anyone who would reform their lives according to God’s kingdom. This is the message Jesus carried and helping to spread this message is always worthwhile. In all the world, there is no finer example of a life lived to its fullness than that of Jesus.

peace

Jim

 

[Veritas41]

I think this is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented things in Catholic teaching, even among Catholics.

What your RCIA teacher said was only partly true, and things that are partly true are often more dangerous than things that are not true at all. You should read the sections in the Catechism pertaining to non-Christians. It clearly states that non-Christians are saved by grace, being obedient to the grace they have and truth they know. Just “being good” doesn’t cut it since we can’t be good on our own anyway.

**843 **The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

**844 **In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair
**847 **This affirmation [that there is no salvation outside the Church] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

I would also recommend you read the Vatican document (drawn up by then-Cardinal Ratzinger under JPII’s direction), *Dominus Iesus, *that clearly states what the Church teaches about the possibility of salvation for non-Christians

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[Nick_Jones]

I think this is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented things in Catholic teaching, even among Catholics.

That is probably because the CC tries to make God seem “compassionate” in the eyes of men. In reality, God has the right to save only a few out of the entire human race, or no one at all if He had so chosen.

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

There is no “goodness” in any religious system that rejects all that is good, which is the God of the bible.

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. This affirmation [that there is no salvation outside the Church] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

I would also recommend you read the Vatican document (drawn up by then-Cardinal Ratzinger under JPII’s direction), *Dominus Iesus, *that clearly states what the Church teaches about the possibility of salvation for non-Christians

There are no such people who, “through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church.” Everyone who rejects the One God has only themselves to blame.

 

[Veritas41]

That is probably because the CC tries to make God seem “compassionate” in the eyes of men. In reality, God has the right to save only a few out of the entire human race, or no one at all if He had so chosen.

You’re right that God doesn’t “have” to save anyone, but since it says in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 that we are to pray “for everyone,” which is “good” and “pleases” God the Savior who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" it does seem to indicate that God wills to save more than just a few.
There is no “goodness” in any religious system that rejects all that is good, which is the God of the bible.

Please name one religion that rejects “all” that is good. God has written His moral law in every human heart (Romans 2:15), and that moral law finds its expression through the religious beliefs of different cultures. And, like it says in the Catechism, some of that truth is preserved in the religious beliefs and some of it is distorted.
If there is no truth in other religions, then why did St. Paul quote two pagan poets (Epimenides and Aratus, in Acts 17:28) to express truths about God?

There are no such people who, “through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church.” Everyone who rejects the One God has only themselves to blame.
**How do you know there are no such people? Can you look into the heart of every human being and know whether or not they have rejected God? Why do you suppose Christ commissioned the apostles to preach the Gospel? Because He chooses to make Himself known *through ***His Body, the Church. He doesn’t usually go around directly revealing Himself to every individual on the face of the earth (although He can do that and has done that with some individuals, it is the exception and not the rule). So then how are those who have *never *heard of Christ/the Gospel able to reject what they don’t know? The Gospel didn’t come to the New World until the early 16th century – so were all the people who lived in that vast span of time between Christ and the discovery of the New World by Spain and England guilty of rejecting a Gospel they had never had the opportunity to hear? They could certainly be considered ignorant through no fault of their own because there was no one to tell them the Gospel and no way they could find out. So how are they judged? By what they *could *know through creation (Romans 1:20) and the moral (natural) law written in the human heart by God (Romans 2:12-15). God doesn’t hold us accountable for what we can’t or don’t know, but only for what we can and do know. And just like those who hear the Gospel, where you have some who accept and some who reject, you have among those who have only natural revelation and the moral law those who accept what truth they know and others who reject it (Romans 2:14-15).

 

[Veritas41]

Nick, how about the people in the OT? They were saved through Christ, but they didn’t have knowledge of Him specifically. You don’t have to know about Christ specifically to be saved by Him. He can offer His grace to anyone to draw them to the Father.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Please name one religion that rejects “all” that is good. God has written His moral law in every human heart (Romans 2:15), and that moral law finds its expression through the religious beliefs of different cultures. And, like it says in the Catechism, some of that truth is preserved in the religious beliefs and some of it is distorted.
If there is no truth in other religions, then why did St. Paul quote two pagan poets (Epimenides and Aratus, in Acts 17:28) to express truths about God?

The problem with trying to find “good” in a religion is that religions are mostly man made systems. Do you trust in your religious system to save your soul, or will you trust in Jesus? What is it in the bible that indicates that we should try to find “good” in various religions? Only God is good. God is the Spiritual manifestation of all that is good. Everything else is worthless.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Nick, how about the people in the OT? They were saved through Christ, but they didn’t have knowledge of Him specifically. You don’t have to know about Christ specifically to be saved by Him. He can offer His grace to anyone to draw them to the Father.

And none of us has complete knowledge of Him because we are finite and fallen creatures. But when God provides a person with the gift of grace that saves, that person has at least a saving knowledge of Christ. Such a gift is always miraculous, and it always accomplishes what God intends for it to accomplish.

 

[Veritas41]

And none of us has complete knowledge of Him because we are finite and fallen creatures. But when God provides a person with the gift of grace that saves, that person has at least a saving knowledge of Christ. Such a gift is always miraculous, and it always accomplishes what God intends for it to accomplish.

So you’re saying the people in the OT had a knowledge of Christ when He hadn’t been revealed to them yet? Hebrews 11 says it’s through faith the people in the OT were saved, but it doesn’t indicate they had specific knowledge of Jesus – just faith in God according to the knowledge they had. And that would be the situation with non-Christians today (and in the past) who haven’t had the opportunity to hear of Christ. In the OT, God went outside His covenant people, the Jews,to give grace (to the Ninevites Jonah preached to, Ruth, Rahab, Naaman the Syrian, etc.) If He could go outside His covenant people to save then, why assume He can’t or won’t now?

 

[Reformed_Rob]

If they claim John Paul II said it, then it is incumbent upon them to provide the source.

Agreed, however we know it is sadly all too common that teachers are not the least bit interested in giving a source for their statements.

Sometimes it’s something that they don’t think people want to be bothered with, sometimes it’s something they akin to “hearsay” and they just pass it on without researching the topic. Sometimes they don’t need to research because they already “know it all.”

I would have a hard time believing a teacher would just make something up and be totally culpable for presenting a non-truth statement as fact.

 

[Nick_Jones]

So you’re saying the people in the OT had a knowledge of Christ when He hadn’t been revealed to them yet?

No, we can only know things that are revealed to us. But to know God the Father is, in some sense, to know the Son also.

Hebrews 11 says it’s through faith the people in the OT were saved, but it doesn’t indicate they had specific knowledge of Jesus – just faith in God according to the knowledge they had. And that would be the situation with non-Christians today (and in the past) who haven’t had the opportunity to hear of Christ. In the OT, God went outside His covenant people, the Jews,to give grace (to the Ninevites Jonah preached to, Ruth, Rahab, Naaman the Syrian, etc.) If He could go outside His covenant people to save then, why assume He can’t or won’t now?

I’m not assuming He can’t or won’t now. If God could reveal Himself to Abraham sufficiently to cause Abraham to know God well enough to trust God, then God can do the same for people today.

 

[Veritas41]

The problem with trying to find “good” in a religion is that religions are mostly man made systems. Do you trust in your religious system to save your soul, or will you trust in Jesus? What is it in the bible that indicates that we should try to find “good” in various religions? Only God is good. God is the Spiritual manifestation of all that is good. Everything else is worthless.

Only God is good, but He shares His goodness with His creation/creatures. God is THE truth, and that truth is shared, at least in part where there isn’t full revelation of Him. Was St. Paul encouraging the Athenians on Mars Hill to trust in Greek paganism when he quoted Greek poets to share certain truths about God? Or did he take truths about God expressed by pagan Greek poets to relate it to the fullness of truth about God revealed in Jesus Christ? In other words, acknowledging what is good and true in other religions helps build a foundation on which to share the fullness of truth revealed in Jesus Christ. And this is what the Church teaches – what is good and true in religions can be a preparation for the Gospel. For example, if you’re evangelizing Muslims, since they believe there is only one God, you don’t have to waste time trying to convince them of one truth (there is only one true God) that they already know.

No, I don’t trust in a “religious system” to save me – we are saved by grace through truth, and God makes it possible for all people to know enough truth and have sufficient grace to be saved. It has nothing to do with “religious systems.”

 

[Nick_Jones]

Was St. Paul encouraging the Athenians on Mars Hill to trust in Greek paganism when he quoted Greek poets to share certain truths about God? Or did he take truths about God expressed by pagan Greek poets to relate it to the fullness of truth about God revealed in Jesus Christ?

Paul was showing them the futility of worshipping an unknown god, and he was not taking “truths about God expressed by pagan Greek poets to relate it to the fullness of truth about God revealed in Jesus Christ.” They were worshipping false gods.

In other words, acknowledging what is good and true in other religions helps build a foundation on which to share the fullness of truth revealed in Jesus Christ. And this is what the Church teaches – what is good and true in religions can be a preparation for the Gospel.

Then “the church” teaches contrary to the bible. Jesus (and Paul) never suggested that we ought to look to what is good in other religions. God alone is good, and salvation is only through Christ. There is nothing of any spiritual value in a false religious system.

No, I don’t trust in a “religious system” to save me – we are saved by grace through truth, and God makes it possible for all people to know enough truth and have sufficient grace to be saved. It has nothing to do with “religious systems.”

If God “makes it possible for all people to know enough truth and have sufficient grace to be saved”, then why are only some people saved and not everyone? What is it specifically, that is lacking in those who do not receive salvation?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Then “the church” teaches contrary to the bible. Jesus (and Paul) never suggested that we ought to look to what is good in other religions. God alone is good, and salvation is only through Christ. There is nothing of any spiritual value in a false religious system.

God is the source of all that is good as He is All-good. If there is good in another person or another institution, that good came from God. And, we are to find God whereever He resides. And when we find that Good, we can see God. And when we see God, others can see God in us. My friend, this is the first step in evangelizing. Without us first seeing God in another person (or institution), we can neither expect them to see God in us or see that what we say (in speech or in example) is from God.

Years ago, I had the opportunity to tour a state penitentiary and its most secure section. Before I went there, I prayed for the capacity to look past the evil in each and every person who I cast my eyes upon and find Christ in them so they could see Christ in me. Nick, if I failed to do this, I would have given up the opportunity to be an instrument of the Holy Spirit. So it is when I come into contact with a person who is a non-believer or adherent to a false religion. Until you see this Nick, you will be just a clanging cymbal.

 

[The_Catholic]

Well, I don’t have any documentation, but I would say this is wrong. It is possible for those who follow another religion to make it to heaven. But that would be the exception, not the rule, and it would be by following the Word of God written on their hearts. I don’t know if John Paul II said this, but it is up to them to provide proof of that, not you to refute it.

I would point out to them that for some people, for example fanatic Muslims, following their religion to the best of their ability involves murder and sometimes suicide. For the Aztecs it involved mass human sacrifice. Are they suggesting these people will go to heaven? I don’t think so.

It all has to do with a person’s heart. God’s Law is written on our heart, and in fact I think this is common sense. If someone living a good and holy life with heart felt devotion, even if they are not Catholic, then I believe they will be saved.

I am not at all saying that one has to be “good,” but that the “heart felt” devotion one has (feed the hungry, helping others in need, selflessness, etc.) is in fact the holy spirit working in them. That is what Faith is, not a simple “head knowledge” but living your live the way God wants you too.

If one is arogant and prideful ( as I believe the pagans of early Christianity were, accepting Christ was just too foolish for their “wisdom” to take in and they, as well as many Jew, hardened their hearts, and THAT’S dangerous ground for denying the Gospel) then that’s something else, but if one is unknowingly “Godfearing” and ignorant, then I believe that’s fine in God’s eyes. It’s Godly commonsense.

If we die in “unrepented” sin then we are in trouble. But “repented” sin, well then praise God.