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Allan_M
Guest
Has the RCIA ever been officially approved by the Vatican? or can it be approved locally ie local Bishops.
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Jenny_Z
Guest
I know Wikipedia isn’t the end-all be-all of sources, but I’m lazy 
and there are links off the page that I’m sure will back it up.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_Christian_Initiation_for_Adults
*During the Second Vatican Council there was a call for the reinstatement of the Catechumenate. The vote was 2,165 Yes’s, 9 No’s, and 1 null. In 1966 the provisional ritual was distributed, followed by the 2nd draft in 1969, and in 1972 Pope Paul VI promulgated the Order of Christian Initiation of Adults.[1]
In 1986 the United States of America (USA) Bishops approved US additions to the Order of Christian Initiation of Adults and National Statutes and a national plan of implementation. In September 1988, the RCIA became mandatory in the USA*
and there are links off the page that I’m sure will back it up.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_Christian_Initiation_for_Adults
*During the Second Vatican Council there was a call for the reinstatement of the Catechumenate. The vote was 2,165 Yes’s, 9 No’s, and 1 null. In 1966 the provisional ritual was distributed, followed by the 2nd draft in 1969, and in 1972 Pope Paul VI promulgated the Order of Christian Initiation of Adults.[1]
In 1986 the United States of America (USA) Bishops approved US additions to the Order of Christian Initiation of Adults and National Statutes and a national plan of implementation. In September 1988, the RCIA became mandatory in the USA*
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puzzleannie
Guest
yes and yes. each national bishops’ conference has adaptations and national standards for their country. What they cannot do is tinker beyond those. If they do RCIA they have to do RCIA, they can’t pick and choose, other than the areas that truly do have options.
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
Yes, the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) was approved by Rome. You’ll find it in the decree *Cum, nostra aetate *dated Jan. 27, 1966. As implementede in the United States it was approved by Rome (the Congregation for Divine Worship) on Feb 19, 1987 (Prot. N. 1192/86). The initial version of the rite was promulgated Jan 6, 1972 by the CDW under the signature of Cdl. Arturo Tabera, Prefect.
Deacon Ed
Deacon Ed
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Allan_M
Guest
Hi all thanks for you’re answers:thumbsup: I was reading a website quite critical of all things after Vatican II, using the term newchurch to describe the RCC
These days I’m not usually pulled here and there by the accusations against Mother Church but there are some strong arguments in favor of the old ways (traditional) the Roman missal, euchrist on the tongue, not mention the dramatic decline in priests. Got any thoughts
These days I’m not usually pulled here and there by the accusations against Mother Church but there are some strong arguments in favor of the old ways (traditional) the Roman missal, euchrist on the tongue, not mention the dramatic decline in priests. Got any thoughts
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Orpheus2112
Guest
Eh, in any group you’re going to find people who think that “back in the day” things were done right and we’ve all lost our way. I don’t think that the declining numbers of young priests would be any different if every Mass was said in Latin or we all received the Eucharist on the tongue. I’m a convert and you’ll find plenty of the “old schoolers” in our ranks; converts tend to be zealots and zealots find a lot of romance in more traditional practices of yesteryear regardless of whether we are talking about catholicism, movies, rock music, editions of Dungeons & Dragons, music media formats (ever met a die-hard vinyl record collector?) and whatnot. If you think that the Truth is within the Catholic Church then it is there pre-and-post Vatican II.
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weepixie71
Guest
yes the rcia classes valid classes but only if it is taught by a member of the clergy, not a member of the parish.
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
There is no such requirement in any of the documentation from Rome. In fact, in the decree from Rome it is very clear that “catechists and other laypersons should work with priests and deacons…” Further, the national statutes make it clear that catechists have a major role and, when delegated by the bishop, may actually perform some of the minor exorcisms.
Deacon Ed
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weepixie71
Guest
Cum, nostra ætate, please correct me if im wrong, has to do with relations with the church of non-christian religions and some minor changes in the hymnals, missals, calender, etc. they were so minor though they didnt effect the lay people.
no where does it state that lay people can give instruction.
i called my priest about this because i was confused. my husband took rcia classes with him one on one. he told me the pope never approved lay people to teach these classes. what happened was priests were so over burdened by their workload, they asked the pope if they could seek help from the lay people. the pope never responded so the priests felt obligated to have someone teach since they felt they couldnt.
so if you can show me differently, which i would love for him to be wrong on this since so many parishes are doing it, im going to have to take his word for it.
no where does it state that lay people can give instruction.
i called my priest about this because i was confused. my husband took rcia classes with him one on one. he told me the pope never approved lay people to teach these classes. what happened was priests were so over burdened by their workload, they asked the pope if they could seek help from the lay people. the pope never responded so the priests felt obligated to have someone teach since they felt they couldnt.
so if you can show me differently, which i would love for him to be wrong on this since so many parishes are doing it, im going to have to take his word for it.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
The bishops of England and Wales have the introductory material from the Rite on their web site:liturgyoffice.org.uk/Resources/Rites/RCIA.pdf
Take a look at the section on the Catechumenate.
75-1: A suitable catechesis is provided by priests or deacons, **or by catechists and others of the faithful, **planned to be gradual and complete in its coverage, accommodated to the liturgical year, and solidly supported by celebrations of the word. This catechesis leads the catechumens not only to an appropriate acquaintance with dogmas and precepts but also to a profound sense of the mystery of salvation in which they desire to participate.
It seems pretty clear that instruction can be provided by both ordained and non-ordained people.
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Deacon_Ed
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In Nostra Aetate the Church encourages us to work with non-Catholics and to help them to understand our faith. This was the basis for the development of the RCIA process.
I cited from paragraph 7 of the CDW’s decree on the RCIA showing that catechists and other laypersons should work with priests and deacons (the reference there is in preparation for baptism which is interpreted in the Rite as the catechesis leading up to the sacraments of initiation (baptism, confirmation and Eucharist).
In the Vatican II document Ad Gentes (14) we read: “Christian initiation during the catechumenate is not the concern of catechists or priests alone, but of the whole community of believers and especially of godparents, so that from the outset the catechumens will have a sense of being part of the people of God.”
I belive that, in this case, your priest is mistaken since it is clearly revealed in the documentation associated with the RCIA that the laity are to be involved.
Deacon Ed
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weepixie71
Guest
thank you for your info on this matter. i spoke to my priest and he said most traditional catholic priests do not practice this no more than they would let laity pass the communion rails during a mass. my personal opinion is in agreement with my priest. i have to tell you i was floored when you told me laity could teach. just in your opinion, out of curiosity, do you feel this could have been a cause of the much protestantism that is taking place in the new mass? maybe the laity in the classes are not only teaching but are also being taught how protestants do their worship, thus having it bleed into our services?
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Eric_Olsen
Guest
It would be best if it was mandatory that RCIA was taught by a member of the clergy. Lay people tend to put their own biases in and I have experienced that. I am not saying clergy don’t either but for the most part, clergy seem to know what they are talking about.
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Deacon_Ed
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In my years of observing the RCIA process I have found that most of the laity make wonderful catechists who know and live their faith fully and actively. I’ve found a few that have taught erroneously either because they did not know the correct teaching or because they felt they had a “better” teaching. I’ve worked to correct such errors when I’ve found them and to root out catechists who would not teach what the Church teaches.
I don’t think that the RCIA process has had any impact on the theology or practice of how the Mass is celebrated.
Deacon Ed
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
I’m not sure how this would be possible. My Latin Rite parish (I also serve an Eastern Rite parish) has two full-time priests, two deacons, and a priest in residence who works part time at the chancery. We have nearly 5,000 registered families. The priests are pretty busy (although they do make time do RCIA session two or three times a year). I still work full time, serve as a police chaplain and serve two parishes. As such, my time is pretty limited and, although I served as an RCIA catechist for some 20 years, no longer do so.
Deacon Ed
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Cat
Guest
If you live anywhere near my home parish, I would like to invite you to visit our RCIA classes, which are taught by a convert to Catholicism.
She’s an ex-professor, and is an incredibly gifted teacher. From September through Easter, RCIA classes start at 6:30 and end at 9:30–THREE HOURS of teaching, and everyone sits and listens without moving and without chatting, and drinks in every word of her talks. Our RCIA is not a joke and not a walk in the park.
And you can’t miss a class–it’s videotaped so that those who are sick do not miss out.
The notebook for the class is about six inches thick, and everyone gets a Bible and a Catechism.
There is a team of laypeople who help–my husband is in charge of the sponsors and their training.
The head teacher works with a priest, who oversees the classes and does the presentations about the Sacraments. Everything is approved by the priest.
I’m happy to report that the people who attend her classes stay true to the Church. We still see most of our RCIA class in Mass and involved with various ministries in the parish.
Frankly, when I think of the fantastic job this woman does teaching RCIA, I’m a little upset with your assumption that non-priests will do a crummy job. I suggest that you don’t judge people until you have actually observed them in action. You are making up some pretty insulting theories. Many converts are zealous about their Catholic faith, and allowing Protestantism to “creep in” is NOT going to happen on their watch.
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weepixie71
Guest
i am soooo tired of being called insulting or judgmental. for one i did not say that only a priest could teach. i said clergy. it could be a priest, brother, decon, etc. it sounds like to me the priest and decon are participating. but do you really think that every parish has an ex-professor teaching catholism? do you think that all parishes have active priests or any other member of the clergy helping the laity teach? for two, to deny that protestantism is not creeping into the catholic churches is foolish. so if it is not coming in from laity then it is coming in from our priests or bishops. in the new churches that are being built, our catholic saint statues are gone, communion rails are gone and you can not even receive him on the tongue in some masses much less kneeling, our candles are removed also, our beautiful stain glass windows of our catholic history and symbols gone, rock bands and choir is a distraction in the front of the church. catholics used to be known for the beautiful organ music. i havent heard an organ playing at a novus ordo in years. girls acting as servers (the first step to priesthood). utterly disgraceful! totally ignoring pope john paul II when he said “no female servers”. hands raised during the Our Father, and hand clapping at the end of service. what is that all about? you know some people like to pray after mass and its very distracting when people are chit chatting about the weather and what joe blow is doing these days not even recognizing Christ is still there. i am not judgmental i am observant!!! these are hard SCARY facts about where our catholic church is headed. hey but at least it still has the consecration. who should care if the mass is celebrated like the very people who protest against the catholic truth.
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Deacon_Ed
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Actually, it’s not. To suggest that it is coming in is to misunderstand the nature of Protestantism and Catholicism both.
Not in the new churches I’ve seen and, as a deacon, I see a lot of them. I travel a lot and have visited many new churches in many states, and have seen statues in all of them.
Again, not so. While communion rails are missing in many churches (both old and new) they are present on others. Rome has said that the communicant decides how to receive communion. While the norm is standing and on the tongue (in the hand is an option) one who chooses to kneel cannot be denied communion. Many of the new churches cannot afford stained glass windows since, if they are well made, they require substantial hands-on time and that makes them very expensive. I have seen stained glass windows in some new churches that were “computer generated” (the glass is actually cut and set under computer control). They aren’t bad, but they aren’t like the old, hand made ones. Candles are a significant problem in some areas. Not only are they dirty, they are fire hazards. Still, many chuches have them (including my own).
Yet choirs started in the front of the church.
Come to my parish and you will. BTW, the most famous of all organists was Johnann Sebastian Bach, a Lutheran.
Actually, it was Pope John Paul II who permitted them by noting that nothing in the revised code of canon law prohibted them. He left it up to local bishops to decide, but they are permitted according to Rome.
Visit an Eastern Catholic Church of the Byzantine tradition and you will see that it is normal to pray the Lord’s Prayer with hands raised in the “orans” position. Clapping at the end of Mass should not be done – I agree with you.
Yup, and a gentle reminder that chit-chat should be outside generally solves the problem.
One who is observant notes facts, things that are happening. One that is judgemental attribtes motives to what it observed or condemns what is observed.
Since Protestants do not have the Mass your statement is a non sequitur.
Deacon Ed
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puzzleannie
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I was commissioned by my bishop to teach CCD and RCIA, following the preparation and formation program he decreed. if that bothers you, take it up with him. do I think having laity teach “is the reason for all the protestantism”, no I do not. I think dissent from Church teaching whether from the left or the right is the problem. RCIA is the manner prescribed by the Church for initiating new Catholics. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Pope. If you are dissenting from that, take it up with your conscience.
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weepixie71
Guest
well when the priest, if i should ever attend a novus ordo mass again, which i highly doubt, tells me to quit genuflecting because it slows up the line and then refuse to give me the consecrated host on my tongue (which really did happen) i will be sure to tell him he has to or ill report him to the bishop, since my genuflecting makes such a seen anyway according to him.
all i can say is its funny how i can talk to another traditional catholic and they know exactly what i am talking about but you dont.
i find it a little sad.
I used to bartend. some of the guys were razzing me about being a traditional catholic…all in fun. one of the men told me he was a mason. he said,“when vatican II was pronounced the mason’s rejoiced.” there was something in his eyes that sent a chill down my back. i thought i grasped why they really rejoiced. but until this last thread sent, wow now i really get it.
so you keep quoting vatican II who says obvious things that are wrong are ok. i for one could not participate in a way that makes the mason’s rejoice.
this will be my last thread
all i can say is its funny how i can talk to another traditional catholic and they know exactly what i am talking about but you dont.
i find it a little sad.
I used to bartend. some of the guys were razzing me about being a traditional catholic…all in fun. one of the men told me he was a mason. he said,“when vatican II was pronounced the mason’s rejoiced.” there was something in his eyes that sent a chill down my back. i thought i grasped why they really rejoiced. but until this last thread sent, wow now i really get it.
so you keep quoting vatican II who says obvious things that are wrong are ok. i for one could not participate in a way that makes the mason’s rejoice.
this will be my last thread
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