Rcia....what is SUPPOSED to happen there?

[SuscipeMeDomine]

That sounds good.
But who enforces catholic practice?

so that you don’t have people sitting around doing yoga or something, with no consequence for such actions.

Who enforces the appropriate application of the Rite of Baptism or the Rite of Marriage or the Rite of Penance? The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults is handled exactly the same way.

Do you have reason to think that people are practicing yoga when they should be doing something else? If so, take it up with your pastor. If you do not get an appropriate response from him then take it up with your bishop. Move up the line as necessary.

And I’m wondering what consequence you think would be appropriate. If a catechumen is practicing yoga, should he or she be denied baptism? Or do you envision some other consequence?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I’m not sure what you mean by “the propriety of RCIA as an institution.” I don’t think that RCIA as a process needs to be defended as if it’s some part of the deposit of faith or something. It has it’s strengths and weaknesess. I would have no problem if they scrapped RCIA tomorrow in favor of something better.

What is it you think would be better? What are the strengths and weaknesses you see in the Rite? How do we build on the strengths and eliminate the weaknesses?

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

Yup. My fellow catechists and I are devoting our time to this ministry so that we can destroy people’s faith. Thanks bunches.

By the way, do you actually do anything constructive like teach or do you just take potshots at those who do so?

If you feel you have to identify yourself with those who tear down in RCIA rather than build up I’m truly sorry. As I said the wholesome RCIA is the exception not the rule. What I said about RCIA destroying people’s faith was based upon this predominant experience. I’m sure there’s some nice grizzly bears out there in the wilderness of Alaska - but when I refer to grizzlies in general I’m going to warn people about how fierce and dangerous they are and I’m obviously not referring to the nice cuddly Pooh Bear in the hundred acre wood.

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

What is it you think would be better? What are the strengths and weaknesses you see in the Rite? How do we build on the strengths and eliminate the weaknesses?

Suscipe, I don’t think you really want to go there I can’t think of any strengths offhand except for maybe being with a group of others who are entering the Church might have it’s benefits. Weaknesses: I wouldn’t know where to begin…

I think RCIA should be operated more like an apologetics course than an open ended discussion forum. You have people from all different beliefs coming to be instructed in the faith and they’re leaving without any foundation whatsoever. I think the small group discussions should be entirely eliminated or relegated to the end of the session over coffee and doughnuts. This is where I’ve witnessed a lot of error being not only condoned but enouraged in the name of free-thought. It was incessantly being emphasized that in these small groups there is no right or wrong- only oppinion - If that’s the case then why even bother?

It’s of the utmost importance that only instructors and speakers of impeccable Catholic orthodoxy be admitted to teach. Problem is in todays climate; who’s going to make that call?

How do you eliminate the weaknesses? Eliminate RCIA (just kidding) but an oath against modernism would be a good place to start.

 

[excaliber]

Who enforces the appropriate application of the Rite of Baptism or the Rite of Marriage or the Rite of Penance? The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults is handled exactly the same way.

Do you have reason to think that people are practicing yoga when they should be doing something else? If so, take it up with your pastor. If you do not get an appropriate response from him then take it up with your bishop. Move up the line as necessary.

And I’m wondering what consequence you think would be appropriate. If a catechumen is practicing yoga, should he or she be denied baptism? Or do you envision some other consequence?

Well in ancient Israel if someone misrepresented the true God, it would be a big deal!

Even in corrupt Judaism, blasphemy was a BIG DEAL in Jesus time.

Now we know God never changes,
so why do things seem like the opposite today.
If someone was doing whatever in rcia they would not face excomunication…they would still take the eucharist…they could go on like nothing ever happened.

I am from a protestant Church, and people feared church athority.
and they feared misrepresenting
God or there Church. And yes they would be punished for doing so.

But where is the judicial system in The Catholic Church ?

 

[Cat]

Our parish’s RCIA program is amazing.

It is overseen by one of the parish priests (all of the parish priests get involved at some point), and all of the teaching regarding the Church is done by a priest. There is a lay committee of about a dozen people who divide up the other responsibilities of the RCIA program.

My husband is in charge of procuring, vetting, and training the sponsors. He also puts together the “My Journey” booklet, which includes testimonies from ALL the candidates and catechumens, along with their patron saints. This booklet is made available to the entire congregation after the Easter Vigil, and it is greatly appreciated by many parishioners.

There are two levels of “sponsors.” One is the Sentimental Sponsor, who might be a family member or friend who just wants to be there. This sponsor may or may not be the same as the SPONSOR, who is actually supposed to answer the questions of the catechumen or candidate and through out the year, go with them to various Catholic activities (e.g., the TLM, the Adoration Chapel, the Church Mission, etc.)

There is a group of people who are committed to pray for the candidates and catechumens throughout the year. The candidates and catechumens never meet these people, but know that they are praying for them in the Adoration Chapel.

The RCIA classes start the Monday following Labor Day, and run through the week before Easter Vigil. There are also several weeks of meetings AFTER Easter vigil to discuss the “mystagogy” and the need for the new Catholics to continue their education in the Church by getting involved with various classes, studies, devotions, etc.

There are very few Mondays off. It is a serious commitment. No one blows it off or treats it lightly.

The class starts at 6:30 P.M. and lasts until 9:30 P.M., and it is videotaped for those who have to miss the class. The layperson who is in charge of organizing RCIA is diligent to call those who miss a class and make sure that they are not straying away.

That’s right–it’s THREE hours long for many Mondays, and the entire class is teaching. A few minutes at the end of the class is reserved for “fellowship” and snacks, but most of the class is spent listening to the various lay teachers (who talk about things like “Liturgy” and “Devotions” and “apologetics” and other topics of interest) and the priest, who lectures about the various doctrines of the Catholic Church, as well as covering each Sacrament in great detail and the Catechism. The lectures are very deep and well-prepared, and I often wish these lectures were available to Catholics all over the U.S. So clear, so interesting, so convicting. No “fluff.”

A notebook is given to each catechumen or candidate–the notebook is about 4 inches thick and includes many articles, papers, outlines, etc. about each topic.

Each candidate and catechumen receives a Bible (NAB) and a Catechism, along with that thick notebook, a liturgical year calendar, and a very large stack of devotional books, pamphlets, etc.

There is also a lending library of DVDs, CDs, videotapes, tapes, and books, that one of the older ladies brings to the class (it’s on a cart), and the candidates and catechumens are encouraged to bring these home and learn more. It is a great collection, including tapes of Bishop Sheen’s talks, Mother Angelica, as well as many of the contemporary apologists (Dr. Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, etc.) Many classic and contemporary Catholic movies and books. Lives of saints, etc.

During the Palm Sunday weekend, there is a retreat for the catechumens and candidates, and they are given many hours of even more training, and also have the opportunity to make their first Confession.

What’s wonderful about this RCIA program is the retention rate. The ones who go through RCIA stick around and are faithful in Mass attendance as well as the Sacrament of Reconciliation. They get involved with the parish and find a place to actively be Catholic Christians.

We were told in RCIA that this practice of training catechumens goes all the way back to the First Century, when the apostles were still alive. At that time, a person was not allowed to just “be baptized and join the Church” after a few hours of training. Back then, there were spies all over, and the Church felt the need to make sure that a person was totally sincere about their commitment to become a Christian and serve the Lord. Also, a person who became a Christian back then could likely die as a martyr, so it was important that they fully understood what they were getting themselves and their family into.

So that’s when the Church started asking the inquirers to leave after the Liturgy of the Word and go somewhere else where the Scriptures were opened and taught to them. This process took TWO years back then, and at the end of that time, the catechumen was welcomed into the Church.

So RCIA is hardly an “innovation.” It’s as old as the Church herself.

I like to think that the Blessed Mother was perhaps a “guest speaker” at RCIA classes way back then, and thrilled the catechumens with her personal testimony about her Son. (Probably just my imagination!) But after all, she was supposedly involved in the writing of the Gospel of Luke, so it sounds like she was interested in helping people learn to know her Son.

My daughter came into the Church last year, and attended RCIA at a church in her city in Michigan. Although it only lasted an hour on Sunday mornings (and then the class would attend Mass together), it sounds like it was an excellent “basic training” for becoming a Catholic. She had a big notebook, too, and homework. There was a priest in charge, and a committee of committed, friendly lay-people. She really loved her priest, her teachers, and the rest of the class.

So I think that there are probably a lot of good RCIA programs around the U.S. I am sorry that several of you are stuck with duds. Maybe show your priest this post and ask if the RCIA program can be improved, and how YOU can get involved in helping to improve it. The fact that you are concerned could be an indication that the Holy Spirit is prompting YOU to do something about RCIA!

 

[jmcrae]

Suscipe, I don’t think you really want to go there I can’t think of any strengths offhand except for maybe being with a group of others who are entering the Church might have it’s benefits. Weaknesses: I wouldn’t know where to begin…

I think RCIA should be operated more like an apologetics course than an open ended discussion forum.

Okay. The RCIA is neither an apologetics course, nor an open ended discussion forum.

Rather, it is the set of four steps: Inquiry, Catechesis, Enlightenment, and Mystagogia.

This four-step RCIA process is the context into which you can place whatever teaching style works best for you - if you want to do an Apologetics course for your Period of Catechesis, more power to you - especially if you happen to get a group of Catechumens who have any idea what you are talking about - most are still grappling mightily with the concept of “Jesus is God,” and if after six months of Catechesis they have managed to grasp this idea, most people think they’re doing pretty well.

You have people from all different beliefs coming to be instructed in the faith and they’re leaving without any foundation whatsoever.

I agree with you that this is a problem. However, I don’t think the model of Inquiry, Catechesis, Enlightenment and Mystagogia is at fault, here. I think the fault lies with the fact that most of the Catechists are, themselves, uncatechized, or badly catechized.

I think the small group discussions should be entirely eliminated or relegated to the end of the session over coffee and doughnuts. This is where I’ve witnessed a lot of error being not only condoned but enouraged in the name of free-thought. It was incessantly being emphasized that in these small groups there is no right or wrong- only oppinion - If that’s the case then why even bother?

I’m dearly hoping that this was taking place during the Inquiry period, and not during the Period of Catechesis. However, again, I agree with you that this is symptomatic of a serious problem - even if it was happening during the Period of Inquiry.

It’s of the utmost importance that only instructors and speakers of impeccable Catholic orthodoxy be admitted to teach.

I absolutely agree with this.

Problem is in todays climate; who’s going to make that call?

Have you ever considered becoming a Coordinator of RCIA, yourself? You’d probably do a great job.

How do you eliminate the weaknesses? Eliminate RCIA (just kidding) but an oath against modernism would be a good place to start.

Eliminating RCIA would eliminate all chance for there to be new converts to the Church, since priests are simply far too busy to give individual instruction to 30-40 people each year. At two hours a week per person, plus Breaking Open the Word of God on Sundays, he would have no time to shower and shave, never mind hear Confessions, say Mass, do marriage counselling, altar server training, and the many administrative details that he has to look after each day in the office.

However, I agree with you about the oath against modernism. If every Catechist had to take this oath, we’d eliminate a lot of inadvertent heresy in the process.

 

[bbarrick8383]

When my wife and I approached the priest at the nearest church to ask about RCIA, he responded rather rude and annoyed when we did not understand something he was talking about. Several people saw what happened, one person came up to me as I was walking off and told me that “Priests are to be endured, not endeared” or something to that effect. I was so ticked at being embarrased we have not been back. But, we were not mad at the religion, just that particular church. We have other options, just a little longer drive…in another state.

 

[Glennon_P]

Our parish’s RCIA program is amazing.

It is overseen by one of the parish priests (all of the parish priests get involved at some point), and all of the teaching regarding the Church is done by a priest. There is a lay committee of about a dozen people who divide up the other responsibilities of the RCIA program.

My husband is in charge of procuring, vetting, and training the sponsors. He also puts together the “My Journey” booklet, which includes testimonies from ALL the candidates and catechumens, along with their patron saints. This booklet is made available to the entire congregation after the Easter Vigil, and it is greatly appreciated by many parishioners.

There are two levels of “sponsors.” One is the Sentimental Sponsor, who might be a family member or friend who just wants to be there. This sponsor may or may not be the same as the SPONSOR, who is actually supposed to answer the questions of the catechumen or candidate and through out the year, go with them to various Catholic activities (e.g., the TLM, the Adoration Chapel, the Church Mission, etc.)

There is a group of people who are committed to pray for the candidates and catechumens throughout the year. The candidates and catechumens never meet these people, but know that they are praying for them in the Adoration Chapel.

The RCIA classes start the Monday following Labor Day, and run through the week before Easter Vigil. There are also several weeks of meetings AFTER Easter vigil to discuss the “mystagogy” and the need for the new Catholics to continue their education in the Church by getting involved with various classes, studies, devotions, etc.

There are very few Mondays off. It is a serious commitment. No one blows it off or treats it lightly.

The class starts at 6:30 P.M. and lasts until 9:30 P.M., and it is videotaped for those who have to miss the class. The layperson who is in charge of organizing RCIA is diligent to call those who miss a class and make sure that they are not straying away.

That’s right–it’s THREE hours long for many Mondays, and the entire class is teaching. A few minutes at the end of the class is reserved for “fellowship” and snacks, but most of the class is spent listening to the various lay teachers (who talk about things like “Liturgy” and “Devotions” and “apologetics” and other topics of interest) and the priest, who lectures about the various doctrines of the Catholic Church, as well as covering each Sacrament in great detail and the Catechism. The lectures are very deep and well-prepared, and I often wish these lectures were available to Catholics all over the U.S. So clear, so interesting, so convicting. No “fluff.”

A notebook is given to each catechumen or candidate–the notebook is about 4 inches thick and includes many articles, papers, outlines, etc. about each topic.

Each candidate and catechumen receives a Bible (NAB) and a Catechism, along with that thick notebook, a liturgical year calendar, and a very large stack of devotional books, pamphlets, etc.

There is also a lending library of DVDs, CDs, videotapes, tapes, and books, that one of the older ladies brings to the class (it’s on a cart), and the candidates and catechumens are encouraged to bring these home and learn more. It is a great collection, including tapes of Bishop Sheen’s talks, Mother Angelica, as well as many of the contemporary apologists (Dr. Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, etc.) Many classic and contemporary Catholic movies and books. Lives of saints, etc.

During the Palm Sunday weekend, there is a retreat for the catechumens and candidates, and they are given many hours of even more training, and also have the opportunity to make their first Confession.

What’s wonderful about this RCIA program is the retention rate. The ones who go through RCIA stick around and are faithful in Mass attendance as well as the Sacrament of Reconciliation. They get involved with the parish and find a place to actively be Catholic Christians.

We were told in RCIA that this practice of training catechumens goes all the way back to the First Century, when the apostles were still alive. At that time, a person was not allowed to just “be baptized and join the Church” after a few hours of training. Back then, there were spies all over, and the Church felt the need to make sure that a person was totally sincere about their commitment to become a Christian and serve the Lord. Also, a person who became a Christian back then could likely die as a martyr, so it was important that they fully understood what they were getting themselves and their family into.

So that’s when the Church started asking the inquirers to leave after the Liturgy of the Word and go somewhere else where the Scriptures were opened and taught to them. This process took TWO years back then, and at the end of that time, the catechumen was welcomed into the Church.

So RCIA is hardly an “innovation.” It’s as old as the Church herself.

I like to think that the Blessed Mother was perhaps a “guest speaker” at RCIA classes way back then, and thrilled the catechumens with her personal testimony about her Son. (Probably just my imagination!) But after all, she was supposedly involved in the writing of the Gospel of Luke, so it sounds like she was interested in helping people learn to know her Son.

My daughter came into the Church last year, and attended RCIA at a church in her city in Michigan. Although it only lasted an hour on Sunday mornings (and then the class would attend Mass together), it sounds like it was an excellent “basic training” for becoming a Catholic. She had a big notebook, too, and homework. There was a priest in charge, and a committee of committed, friendly lay-people. She really loved her priest, her teachers, and the rest of the class.

So I think that there are probably a lot of good RCIA programs around the U.S. I am sorry that several of you are stuck with duds. Maybe show your priest this post and ask if the RCIA program can be improved, and how YOU can get involved in helping to improve it. The fact that you are concerned could be an indication that the Holy Spirit is prompting YOU to do something about RCIA!

Cat - you just answered the original question.

What you described is what is supposed to happen in RCIA. Would that many other parishes adopted the program in your parish. I am envious (in a good way) of the opportunity your catechumens have in learning their new faith!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Okay. The RCIA is neither an apologetics course, nor an open ended discussion forum.

Rather, it is the set of four steps: Inquiry, Catechesis, Enlightenment, and Mystagogia.

I agree with you that this is a problem. However, I don’t think the model of Inquiry, Catechesis, Enlightenment and Mystagogia is at fault, here. I think the fault lies with the fact that most of the Catechists are, themselves, uncatechized, or badly catechized.

Nail. Head.

Two years later and I’m still struggling to learn the basics of my faith.

 

[Cat]

Cat - you just answered the original question.

What you described is what is supposed to happen in RCIA. Would that many other parishes adopted the program in your parish. I am envious (in a good way) of the opportunity your catechumens have in learning their new faith!

Believe me, I am so thankful! I feel like Little Orphan Annie getting adopted by Daddy Warbucks! :extrahappy:

I don’t think it’s impossible to have a good RCIA program. I think that a good bishop, good priests, and gifted laity can work to make it happen. It’s just nuts and bolts project management and then implementing the various objectives.

I think that criticizing the whole concept of RCIA and condemning it just because there are bad programs is a sure-fire way to keep the program bad in a parish. Criticizing never helps, it just tears down. Digging in and working (which includes fervent prayer) builds up.

 

[jmcrae]

When my wife and I approached the priest at the nearest church to ask about RCIA, he responded rather rude and annoyed when we did not understand something he was talking about. Several people saw what happened, one person came up to me as I was walking off and told me that “Priests are to be endured, not endeared” or something to that effect. I was so ticked at being embarrased we have not been back. But, we were not mad at the religion, just that particular church. We have other options, just a little longer drive…in another state.

What will happen to you if the other priest is also a cranky old so-and-so?

 

[Wampa]

Hmm, maybe I lucked out and got one of the minority orthodox ones, but mine was awesome. Three hours a week of rock solid Church Teaching. We didn’t really have very much open discussion. Questions were generally handled one-on-one with the instructor after class was over. I probably stayed an hour late each class session

For me, I was much more disappointed in the students than in the class. Out of maybe 14 candidates, there were 1-2 eager to join and soaking up all the knowledge they could (I was in that group for the large majority of the time), 1-2 really struggling with the decision (1 didn’t finish, and it was his third time through the course - his wife was Catholic), and 10-12 who were just there because they wanted a Catholic wedding. It was very clear they were just putting in their hours in the seats to fulfill the requirements.

I actually kind of started in the latter group, but the Spirit grabbed me about 2-3 weeks in and I’ve never looked back. My wife (fiance at the time) was quite surprised and pleased that I made a zealous conversion!

 

[bbarrick8383]

What will happen to you if the other priest is also a cranky old so-and-so?

I have three Churches, surely there is a priest in one of them with the patience to have a normal conversation. I was rather nervous when I spoke with that priest though, I had never spoken with a priest and was so anxious to talk with him. So, when he treated me the way he did I was even more upset.

 

[Tu_Es_Petrus]

I am no expert, but to me a proper RCIA class will teach authentic Catholicism (not that liberal goofy stuff) and also give catechumens a chance to meet people, get comfortable with their parish community, and experinece the mass for a while before they receive the sacraments.

I don’t think the particulars of how the classes are conducted are nearly as important as being sure that they are not watering down or monkeying around with Catholic teachings.

A potential RCIA student needs to feel out the parish before they sign up. Perhaps contacting the diocese and asking for guidance to find a strong parish that’s in fidelity with the Magisterium would be a good idea, or starting a thread here to get advice from someone in the area…

That sounds correct to me.

 

[jmcrae]

I have three Churches, surely there is a priest in one of them with the patience to have a normal conversation. I was rather nervous when I spoke with that priest though, I had never spoken with a priest and was so anxious to talk with him. So, when he treated me the way he did I was even more upset.

That’s understandable. And probably he had no way of knowing that you were totally new, either, especially if you were just stopping him in the hallway, or something like that.

I have always gotten my best results by making a private appointment to talk things over with my priest, rather than try to communicate with him “on the fly” - he never remembers anything I tell him when we’re just talking in the hallway, but if I meet him for an appointment in his office, things go a whole lot better. Even when it just some trivial issue that doesn’t seem like it’s worth all the bother of an appointment, I still find that making an appointment works better. I’m not sure why.

 

[jmcrae]

A potential RCIA student needs to feel out the parish before they sign up.

Absolutely, I agree with this. You should not just show up at a church and enroll right away in RCIA. You should attend Mass there for a while, beforehand, and get to know the parishioners, and kind of “scout out” the place, and get to know people who could potentially be your Sponsor.

 

[crm114]

My wife went through RCIA. She would come home on Wednesday night and we’d stay up for three hours so she could get reprogrammed. For the spouse of the “candidate,” it is great catechist training!

 

[Shin]

RCIA… cannot be relied upon in the slightest, sadly. Many catechumens make the mistake of thinking that what they will get from it is going to be reliable and it often is not.

I was one of the sad victims of this, and in fact in my case the RCIA people were good hearted and overall compared to most, quite knowledgeable people. They didn’t have agendas, they wanted to impart the Faith properly. I hate to speak about how they did not do enough. They certainly wanted to. They simply did not have a complete grasp on what they should be teaching and how to teach it. I got one of the best RCIA experiences one is likely to find – and it was not enough. It was quite incomplete.

They had the CCC, and some other official materials. It was not enough. Not enough material.

Definitely not. I had a great experience in it, emotionally, and I learned a very great deal. But I was not taught all I should know, and what I should know in a proper and structured way so as to integrate it into a proper life of Faith.

Anyone who means to enter into the Church and do so properly is going to have to go to the books these days. I am still trying to put together in my mind what a person would need at minimum.

And yes, the FSSP is a highly highly recommended place to go to get some proper instruction in the Faith. If it is at all a possible choice to go to one of these for entry into the Faith, -go-.

 

[Cat]

RCIA… cannot be relied upon in the slightest, sadly. Many catechumens make the mistake of thinking that what they will get from it is going to be reliable and it often is not.

I was one of the sad victims of this, and in fact in my case the RCIA people were good hearted and overall compared to most, quite knowledgeable people. They didn’t have agendas, they wanted to impart the Faith properly. I hate to speak about how they did not do enough. They certainly wanted to. They simply did not have a complete grasp on what they should be teaching and how to teach it. I got one of the best RCIA experiences one is likely to find – and it was not enough. It was quite incomplete.

They had the CCC, and some other official materials. It was not enough. Not enough material.

Definitely not. I had a great experience in it, emotionally, and I learned a very great deal. But I was not taught all I should know, and what I should know in a proper and structured way so as to integrate it into a proper life of Faith.

Anyone who means to enter into the Church and do so properly is going to have to go to the books these days. I am still trying to put together in my mind what a person would need at minimum.

And yes, the FSSP is a highly highly recommended place to go to get some proper instruction in the Faith. If it is at all a possible choice to go to one of these for entry into the Faith, -go-.

This makes no sense. Of course your RCIA experience will be incomplete. You can’t learn everything in several months at once-a-week classes. And even the best teachers can’t cover it all. And perhaps you were not able to integrate it into a proper life of faith, but others in your class might have had a completely difference response to the teachings.

I would suggest that you drop the “victim” mentality and stop blaming people because they don’t do things your way. Your teachers did the best they could. God can and DID bless and use their efforts.

Even if your teachers are not covering as much as you’d wish, you can always do some self-education to make up the gaps in your education. There are a lot of good books, both traditional and modern, out there, along with the Catechism and the Bible, of course. And CD series, and DVD series, and of course, websites like this one!

You give it a try and see how difficult it is to compress the teachings of 2000 years of the Catholic Church into a few hours a week for a few months.