Re: a sexual matter

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Ish_Kabibble

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first. thank you.

i have been aware of the site for awhile. its a great place. i apologize if my first post is way out there, but here we are.

i have a few sexual questions. this is a serious and up front question.

is it the physiological process of an organism within masturbation that is a sin, or is it lustful thought that usually accompanies it?

it would seen to us that an orgasm is just another pleasure. without lustful fantasy, can it be a sin? you may say that you can not have one with out the other and you may be right. however, i am splitting hairs with you. on the most christian technical level. if a person can have an organism using electronic technology, without lustful thoughts or fantasy, is it a sin, or just another biological function albeit a powerful one?

the electronic technology i refer to does not matter and would not seem to us to be proper to make people aware of it if it is in some way harmful to the spirit of the user.

I am not as interested in opinions as I am in strict interpretation of the letter of CCC teachings.

this completes my first question. i would appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. i am not here to argue the point, or push some weird agenda. i am here to listen to you and learn.
 
Sin comes from either the circumstance, action, or intent. Masturbation is a sin of both action and intent (circumstance, there is no justifiable one), because the action of stimulating oneself in order to recieve pleasure outside the conjugal act is selfish and wrong. Orgasm is not itself wrong; a biological process in and of itself is not wrong. Hence why nocturnal emissions are not wrong or a male getting aroused when he sees a pretty girl, but not desiring the arousal and not attempting to entertain lustful thoughts. Whether you use objects, viewing or reading material, your hands, or some other form of technology to derive pleause and orgasm does not matter. What matters is that you were seeking arousal and pleasure apart from what is proper; the marriage act. Any time you act in such a way to derive such things or to treat another as an object of lust is always wrong; whether you orgasm or not.
 
LittleOne1 said:
Sin comes from either the circumstance, action, or intent. Orgasm is not itself wrong; a biological process in and of itself is not wrong.
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there is action and intent, but of what? a biological process that is of itself not wrong as you have written it.
LittleOne1 said:
Hence why nocturnal emissions are not wrong or a male getting aroused when he sees a pretty girl, but not desiring the arousal and not attempting to entertain lustful thoughts.
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okay. as i indicated in my post. there is no lust, no one is being treated as an object. only a physical response to a external source even though, a pretty strong one.

yes, i know i am being doggy but again, there are many types of pleasure without lust. if i am telling you there is no lust. no fantasy of a sexual nature, why would this be not just one of those?

i need (name removed by moderator)ut on this.
 
Ish_Kabibble said:
there is action and intent, but of what? a biological process that is of itself not wrong as you have written it.
.
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The biological process while not sinful in itself is sinful if consciously self induced.👍
 
Be careful if you read this- no weak stomaches 🙂

If you were not of the age of reason- usually 7 or 8, all points of your “debate” here would be understandable.

Keep these 2 things in mind:

1 If I offered you chocolate chip cookies with just the tiniest bit of feces in them and told you they tasted good and you wouldn’t taste the feces at all- would you eat them?
Sin is desirable. That doesn’t make it good for you.

What you are unwittingly doing here is having a conversation with the the evil one. He gives you all sorts of excuses and helps you to try to justify your actions. Read Genesis Chapter 3. You are doing exactly what Eve did with the serpent. The deeper you search for justification, the farther you are getting sucked in…
now it’s not so much that you are listening to the serpent- imagine this: You are actually having a conversation.

We all actually do it. You just need to realize when YOU are doing it. Hope that helps

2 You do not necessarily have to agree with a church teaching, you just have to obey! Why? The Church in her wisdom, knows what is best for you. Because God loves you He gave you the Church and her teachings. Trust and Obey!

I submit this respectfully-when you have 2000 years of wisdom backing you- come back and share your wisdom.
 
rwoehmke said:
The biological process while not sinful in itself is sinful if consciously self induced
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i have heard you and i can accept it if its, based on all that i have already said, true written fact or is this your opposition.
 
Ish_Kabibble said:
i have heard you and i can accept it if its, based on all that i have already said, true written fact or is this your opposition.
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It is a statement of opposition to the sin of self induced orgasm while awake. It is pure and simple masturbation no matter what means one uses to “get it off.” There are no loopholes and its a waste of time to try to squirm around the facts. 👍
 
I see- but you are providing what you see as justification/ outside the marital embrace, willful orgasm is a no- no.

Is that all you read in my reply?

PLEASE READ:

CCC

Offenses against chastity

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

Hope that helps…

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
 
babygirl6152 said:
CCCOffenses against chastity: 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes. 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
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this is the information i was looking for. i will study this and think it over.

thank you very much
 
To the OP:

I’m not sure why we’re dancing around this one.

Vibrators were manufactured, and exist, to enhance sexual pleasure, both alone and partnered. They are explicitly a “sex toy.” Any form of masturbation is prohibited, including artificial assistance.

I will pray for you.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
To the OP:

I’m not sure why we’re dancing around this one.

Vibrators were manufactured, and exist, to enhance sexual pleasure, both alone and partnered. They are explicitly a “sex toy.” Any form of masturbation is prohibited, including artificial assistance.

I will pray for you.
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Actually, vibrators were a tool designed to help physicians treat ‘hysteria’ in women. It was more effective than digital manipulation.
 
ForwardProgress said:
Actually, vibrators were a tool designed to help physicians treat ‘hysteria’ in women. It was more effective than digital manipulation.
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But they are not used for that today, and you know it. If there were no market for them as a sex toy, they would become extinct. They are today merely sex toys, nothing else. The OP is not treating hysteria, but thanks for the history lesson.🙂
 
Ish,
What was said above is correct. There are some mitigating circumstances as you see in the CCC. Mitigating circumstances would be something like you robbed a bank, or you robbed a bank to feed your starving family. For both, you go to jail, but one is a little less bad than the other.

You really need to pay attention to what Babygirl said. Especially with this sin (because the temptation is so strong), people really look for the loopholes. I hate to tell you, they aren’t there. Just different degrees of, well badness (couldn’t find the word).

And no, you really can’t use a machine even without the lustful thoughts to reach the same end. It’s still the same old sin, just lacking the extra sin of lust (maybe…).
 
Human beings are quite simply a union of body and soul. God created us that way so that our physical reality gives us hints about our spiritual reality.

Orgasm is a gift God gave us to be a physical manifestation of the spiritual oneness that he intended for marital conjugal love. If you use technological means to get it severed from its God-given intention you essentially spit in God’s face - and He doesn’t like that any more than you would.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
To the OP:I’m not sure why we’re dancing around this one.
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the fate of your brother is a million times more dangerous the some stupid vibrator. i fear the sin of scandal to say anymore.

i read you loud and clear. i have read and considered everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut and i understand my task although i loath to contemplate the road ahead.

every journey begins with the first steps.

than you all very kindly

over and out
 
Is it a sin if it is done in marriage?

Reading some of this thread made me wonder:shrug:
 
If the seed is deposited for lack of a better term. So if we are talking about a woman and her mate and she is being stimulated as such- it would have to end- precede, include (whatever) the marital embrace… not a solo attempt to gratify…

see this link:

bfhu.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/sexual-sin/
 
babygirl6152 said:
Be careful if you read this- no weak stomaches 🙂

If you were not of the age of reason- usually 7 or 8, all points of your “debate” here would be understandable.

Keep these 2 things in mind:

1 If I offered you chocolate chip cookies with just the tiniest bit of feces in them and told you they tasted good and you wouldn’t taste the feces at all- would you eat them?
Sin is desirable. That doesn’t make it good for you.

What you are unwittingly doing here is having a conversation with the the evil one. He gives you all sorts of excuses and helps you to try to justify your actions. Read Genesis Chapter 3. You are doing exactly what Eve did with the serpent. The deeper you search for justification, the farther you are getting sucked in…
now it’s not so much that you are listening to the serpent- imagine this: You are actually having a conversation.

We all actually do it. You just need to realize when YOU are doing it. Hope that helps

2 You do not necessarily have to agree with a church teaching, you just have to obey! Why? The Church in her wisdom, knows what is best for you. Because God loves you He gave you the Church and her teachings. Trust and Obey!

I submit this respectfully-when you have 2000 years of wisdom backing you- come back and share your wisdom.
Click to expand...
Exactly! Excellent, perfect clarity of the issue at hand.
Also, intentional ejaculation outside of the conjugal act in a valid marriage is the sin of Onan.
 
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