T
Thing
Guest
Well I hope you guys choose the correct interpretation 'cause you ain’t getting into His Kingdom if you choose poorly.
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P
Pax
Guest
And you?
P
Pax
Guest
Sorry but this is not the case and IMHO the rest of the scriptures you quoted do not establish the point.
Let’s look at Ezekiel first and then the rest of scripture that is appropriate to “infant baptism” without focusing only on scriptures that talk about the requirement of faith in a general sense.
The passage from Ezekiel is spoken to the “House of Israel.” This obviously includes children. Children were brought into the OT family of God through circumcision on the eigth day after birth. Now let’s compare the passage from Ezekiel to Acts 2:37-39.
Ezekiel says:
“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”
The Book of Acts says:
“Repent and be and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven.”
Ezekiel says:
“A new heart I will give you,”
The Book of Acts says:
“Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart”
Ezekiel says:
“I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.”
The Book of Acts says:
“and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Ezekiel says:
“Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.”
The Book of Acts says:
“For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
The two passages are mirror images of one another and it is clear that the OT family of God included children and infants. Likewise, the Book of Acts even says that "the promise is to you and to your children."
We also see infant baptism reinforced elsewhere in scripture in a number of powerful ways. The last verse in the passage from Ezekiel speaks to the House of Israel saying, “you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” This obviously includes children and infants. In the New Covenant we hear these same words. The following examples should be helpful:
Romans 9:25
Those who were not my people I will call my people…
2 Cor 6:6
I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hebrews 8:10
I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant for the old is only a shadow of the good things to come. Obviously, infants must be included in the New Covenant or it is inferior to the old covenant. Paul makes the connection between circumcision for the Old Covenant and baptism in the New Covenant when he says the following:
Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (i.e.,baptism replaces circumcision and children were circumcised as infants)
Jesus also makes it clear that little children are not to be with held. Check out the following verses:
Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were being brought to him in order that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples spoke sternly to those who brought them; but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;"
Luke 18:15-16
People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they sternly ordered them not to do it. But Jesus called for them and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;
God touches us through baptism and we receive the remission of original sin and we receive the Holy Spirit. Even an infant can receive these things. as is evidenced by the following:
Luke 1 :15
The angel Gabriel says that John the Baptist , “even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
“I WANT you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”
This is an abundantly clear OT prefiguring of baptism and being saved by baptism. The number of Israelites that left Egypt in Exodus is described as follows:
Exodus 12:37-38
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very many cattle, both flocks and herds.
It is obvious from this account and Paul’s reference to passing through the Red Sea and baptism that the sacrament of baptism is for men, women, children, and infants. Moreover, scripture describes entire households that were baptized such as those of the Roman jailer, Lydia, and Stephanes. Scripture does not indicate that children were not included.
I hope this helps.
P
Pax
Guest
By the way…I am a cradle Catholic and was baptized as an infant. I have as long as I can remember believed in God and that Jesus died for my sins.
Please tell me “when” I had faith. Was the gift of faith given to me in some form as an infant? Was it given to me at 2 years old, 3 years old, 4 years old…or when? What about John the Baptist?
The book of Acts says this:
Acts 7:20
At this time Moses was born, and he was beautiful before God.
So what about Moses?
And what about this passage?
Jer 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
I have every confidence in the power of God and His promises. Baptism is one of those promises and it is not limited to only those that have reached age of reason. Likewise, your theology would condemn those that are mentally retarded or that die before the age of reason. None of these things are consistent with scripture or the infinite mercy and perfect justice of God.
Please tell me “when” I had faith. Was the gift of faith given to me in some form as an infant? Was it given to me at 2 years old, 3 years old, 4 years old…or when? What about John the Baptist?
The book of Acts says this:
Acts 7:20
At this time Moses was born, and he was beautiful before God.
So what about Moses?
And what about this passage?
Jer 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
I have every confidence in the power of God and His promises. Baptism is one of those promises and it is not limited to only those that have reached age of reason. Likewise, your theology would condemn those that are mentally retarded or that die before the age of reason. None of these things are consistent with scripture or the infinite mercy and perfect justice of God.
T
Thing
Guest
My view, if anyone needs it, is that the entire story concerns Him travelling to baptise people in the river Jordan - where John the Baptist is already baptising the multitudes.
He stops for the night on the way and a visitor asks; ‘what do I need to do, rabbi?’
‘you must be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’.
And on He goes on His journey to meet John the Baptist and to help him baptise.
Obviously, to me anyway, Baptism was on His mind and it is with water and the Holy Spirit we must be baptised.
Why must that be difficult?
P
Pax
Guest
Good question…and I do not know the answer to that one.
G
guanophore
Guest
A very good question. Water baptism was not unique to Christendom. There were communities at the time, such as the Essenes that used baptism also. however, it is likely that Nicodemus went out to John, and observed him.
However, I don’t think that Jesus really expected him to know, it was more like a rhetorical question, to show Nic that he should not rely on his position, but needed to humble himself and learn from Christ.
G
guanophore
Guest
Well, clearly it is not. For one thing, the construction of the sentence would not make sense. If Jesus said “born again, by water and spirit” then the 'again" must have both. Secondly, it is clear from the sacrifice made by Mary in the Temple for herself and Jesus that she is following the Levitical law, which has to do with ritual impurity due to BLOOD FLOW and not water. Third, human birth is characterized differently.I have asked for years (and never got an answer) for any Protestant to prove, prior to the 20th century, water being equated with physical birth.
John 1:12-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Natural birth occurs through the blood, the will of the flesh (sexual desire) and the will of man (decision to copulate). None of these have anything to do with water.
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