Re-emerging demon

[Whalljim]

I think its probably the other way around…pre existing mental issues are probably related to demonic activity and its only the world that has ‘explained’ the demons out of it.

Think about it, if satans greatest trick was to convince mankind he does not exist, wouldnt it be safe to assume to he ‘disguises’ his methods in things just like this and the secular world backing him up with ‘scientific findings’?

I tend to think those people in centuries past were right all along, demons are the cause of many of these problems and likely much more that we do not recognize, if they are truly that much more intelligent than us, successfully fooling us should be expected.

I think you have to be very careful of that. IIRC the Church is very careful to use medical and psychological tests first to determine that there isn’t an underlying medical condition.

I’ve had mentally ill family. They were advised to therapy and medication, and made ‘recoveries’ to live functioning, happy, faithful lives.

 

[friardchips]

I really think this is an ‘ask the exorcist’ moment. My thought would be that perhaps they are banished to hell and barred from that person; or perhaps they are barred for a time.

If Hell is a place then it is possible that they are defeated and do not have sufficient power to communicate themselves beyond that boundary i.e:- it is possible that an exorcism depletes any power a demon has as well as ridding the person of the entity.

I believe I’ve read also that these sort of things happen only with the allowance of God’s will; and that this happens rarely.

That’s a conversation in itself. There have been threads on this subject.

So it may be that Demon X once exorcised has served whatever purpose God wanted by being allowed to attack the person in the first place (hopefully waking that person, and those around him, up to the need for salvation). At that point, God wouldn’t allow the Demon to come back.

Same applies. You mean being ‘tested’. It really is a long topic.

(in bold) - I believe that this is true, in context.

But this is just my thoughts.

The idea of possession terrifies me; oppression maybe more; because from what I’ve read it might be more subtle. I try to regularly say the St. Michael prayer.

Yes, at least full-on possession is easy to spot; whereas, obsession and oppression are definitely harder for people to recognise. There are symptoms that one can notice in oneself and thankfully ways to combat such occurrences, also.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I don’t know whether this is plausible if we think in terms of powers and dominions. I could possibly envisage more powerful demons - not that far below satan - being able to apply themselves again and again, but not lower rank ones. Power in Hellish terms could be deduced as such: the ‘free’ movement of demons and souls (or lack of it). Or, for reasons of being more exacting: ‘free’ application of… It could be that communication can be cut ‘decisively’ - possibly a more precise word than “permanent”; grace itself, decisively restricting a certain demon’s abilities to apply itself to people.

Power, in terms of angels and demons, is more rightly defined as vastness of intellect and power of the will I don’t think God limits their wills or diminishes their intellects. He does limit their abilities. As in the Book of Job, God sets limits on Satan’s ability to effect Job. He doesn’t set global limits which effect Satan’s ability to effect other people.

Also in Job, Satan mentions that God has protected Job with a hedge. We see that God does put limits on demons, but again, they are not global limits.

 

[friardchips]

Power, in terms of angels and demons, is more rightly defined as vastness of intellect and power of the will.

I think the will of angels is God’s. They DO God’s Will, while the fallen ones, don’t. Or rather, they do, in the sense, that God can always bring good from the evil they inspire people to doing.

I don’t think God limits their wills or diminishes their intellects.

I see exorcism as mercy and justice. Mercy for the person inflicted and justice regarding the demons, via just-defense. Therefore, in protection of human life, an exorcism can diminish the power of the demon, IMO. Not because God directly diminishes its power, but because the demon has ‘chosen’ to inflict, and so ‘chooses’ to face justice.

He does limit their abilities.

Could it not be that the two go hand in hand. If a demon’s abilities have been limited, then this is because their power has diminished, in some way?

As in the Book of Job, God sets limits on Satan’s ability to effect Job. He doesn’t set global limits which effect Satan’s ability to effect other people.

Also in Job, Satan mentions that God has protected Job with a hedge. We see that God does put limits on demons, but again, they are not global limits.

I love the story of Job, yet I believe I’m correct in thinking that it is been asserted, the story of Job is really just that, a story, and not a real-life account. The person of Job is an archetype for a trusting soul.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I think the will of angels is God’s. They DO God’s Will, while the fallen ones, don’t. Or rather, they do, in the sense, that God can always bring good from the evil they inspire people to doing.

The will of angels is God’s will in the sense that the angels will what God wills. It is taught that both the intellects and wills of angels are superior to human intellects and wills. There is a hierarchy among angels. The superior angels have both stronger wills and intellects than inferior angels. When I stated the wills of the demons are not diminished by God, I did not mean that it was somehow redirected away from or toward God.

I see exorcism as mercy and justice. Mercy for the person inflicted and justice regarding the demons, via just-defense. Therefore, in protection of human life, an exorcism can diminish the power of the demon, IMO. Not because God directly diminishes its power, but because the demon has ‘chosen’ to inflict, and so ‘chooses’ to face justice.

God is merciful and just. I agree that both aspects of God are present.

We haven’t come upon a mutual definition of power regarding demons. I define the demon’s power as a summation of its will and intellect.

Could it not be that the two go hand in hand. If a demon’s abilities have been limited, then this is because their power has diminished, in some way?

If it were not for the intervention of God, through his angels, the demons would destroy us and the world would end. They are always intervening for us. There is a constant battle. Think about The Book of Daniel. The angel (who appeared as a man, but was clearly an angel) told Daniel that he was in a battle along with Michael the Archangel to which he needed to return and had prevented him from answering Daniel’s prayers earlier.

We have examples of God limiting demons in regard to their abilities to attack individuals. You can call this limiting the demons power. We have evidence that post exorcism, the demons still have the power possess or otherwise afflict individuals. The demons are in hell. Their punishment can be increased. They know the consequences of their actions. They know they will be punished. Their hatred is so strong that are willing to endure further punishment.

I love the story of Job, yet I believe I’m correct in thinking that it is been asserted, the story of Job is really just that, a story, and not a real-life account. The person of Job is an archetype for a trusting soul.

Job may be allegorical or factual. Either way it was written for us to learn from. Job is the most studied book of the bible. We can learn a lot from it.

 

[BlueKnight]

Demons and fallen angels are different.

Demons are technically the spirits of dead nephilim. Fallen angels are more powerful.

That said both are in a continuous state of decay and can only steel life or temporarily cohabitate like parasites on living human beings, but seek to claim the soul for eternity once the time for that soul on earth is finished.

They are generally specialists however they are also extremely limited in what they can do because of the Holy Spirit.

They also must be dealt with proactively in spiritual warfare not reactively.

There are so many different types of fallen spirits but they are outnumbered by the good ones. Also their knowledge of heaven is limited to the time they fell, and they just don’t get it and don’t understand Gods plans.

Satanists love to lie and be impish about the occult, something they only partly understand. What they think is the universal knowledge they obtain from communion with evil is a severely limited understanding. The Holy Spirit provides much better insights and can give understanding about the future while demonic or fallen information is limited to the past, present, and very short term future.

What most ocultists do not understand is that the devil always turns on them.

Also they don’t realize that the Devils rule on Earth is about finished. Ultimately the devil is on a retreating action. He lost heaven. He’s about to lose the second heaven. And the first heaven.

There is a very powerful army of God ready and mobilized currently. Satanists should stop dabbling and turn to the divine mercy while they still have what little time is left.

Bk

 

[friardchips]

The will of angels is God’s will in the sense that the angels will what God wills. It is taught that both the intellects and wills of angels are superior to human intellects and wills. There is a hierarchy among angels. The superior angels have both stronger wills and intellects than inferior angels. When I stated the wills of the demons are not diminished by God, I did not mean that it was somehow redirected away from or toward God.

God is merciful and just. I agree that both aspects of God are present.

We haven’t come upon a mutual definition of power regarding demons. I define the demon’s power as a summation of its will and intellect.

If it were not for the intervention of God, through his angels, the demons would destroy us and the world would end. They are always intervening for us. There is a constant battle. Think about The Book of Daniel. The angel (who appeared as a man, but was clearly an angel) told Daniel that he was in a battle along with Michael the Archangel to which he needed to return and had prevented him from answering Daniel’s prayers earlier.

We have examples of God limiting demons in regard to their abilities to attack individuals. You can call this limiting the demons power. We have evidence that post exorcism, the demons still have the power possess or otherwise afflict individuals. The demons are in hell. Their punishment can be increased. They know the consequences of their actions. They know they will be punished. Their hatred is so strong that are willing to endure further punishment.

Job may be allegorical or factual. Either way it was written for us to learn from. Job is the most studied book of the bible. We can learn a lot from it.

If we look at the fall of satan from Heaven, we see it was his choice to rebel, and in justice, he fell. This was the result of his rebellion. Taking a debate/argument to a further reasoned extent, we have to follow the same rule, and so can apply his fall from Heaven - a place of sanctity - to a state in which his will is in a continuous state of rebellion and his intellect ceases to be nourished by light. It was light that he turned from. It is light that he hates.

The sanctity of the human will belongs to God alone. The devil can never have complete right to a person’s will. But they can tempt the will into acting as if it is enslaved to a state of disorder on an emotional level - this would be the will caught in a cycle of indulging in earthly passions. So people can be enslaved to sin, for example. While they might hand their existence, to some degree, to satan, they still have their own wills. It is their intellect - in terms of an aspect of the soul - that falls short of the light, that can be distorted. And the distortion of the intellect can distract the will from being focused on God.

So, if we compare an exorcism to satan’s fall from Heaven, and the place of sanctity that is also our own God-given wills, what we see is a correlation.

Following this, if a person has had the will freed from demonic attack, and the intellect has thus been restored on some level, then we can reason that the place of ‘heaven-like, God-owned’ sanctity has been restored, in that freed person, and that specific demon has fallen from the place of sanctity, as the demons fell from Heaven, unable to return to that place.

 

[MtnDwellar]

If we look at the fall of satan from Heaven, we see it was his choice to rebel, and in justice, he fell. This was the result of his rebellion. Taking a debate/argument to a further reasoned extent, we have to follow the same rule, and so can apply his fall from Heaven - a place of sanctity - to a state in which his will is in a continuous state of rebellion and his intellect ceases to be nourished by light. It was light that he turned from. It is light that he hates.

The sanctity of the human will belongs to God alone. The devil can never have complete right to a person’s will. But they can tempt the will into acting as if it is enslaved to a state of disorder on an emotional level - this would be the will caught in a cycle of indulging in earthly passions. So people can be enslaved to sin, for example. While they might hand their existence, to some degree, to satan, they still have their own wills. It is their intellect - in terms of an aspect of the soul - that falls short of the light, that can be distorted. And the distortion of the intellect can distract the will from being focused on God.

So, if we compare an exorcism to satan’s fall from Heaven, and the place of sanctity that is also our own God-given wills, what we see is a correlation.

Following this, if a person has had the will freed from demonic attack, and the intellect has thus been restored on some level, then we can reason that the place of ‘heaven-like, God-owned’ sanctity has been restored, in that freed person, and that specific demon has fallen from the place of sanctity, as the demons fell from Heaven, unable to return to that place.

I am 100% with your post - except I am not sure what you mean by the last sentence. Are you saying that as a result of the exorcism, the demon falls to a lower/darker place in Hell?

 

[mikekle]

Demons and fallen angels are different.

Demons are technically the spirits of dead nephilim. Fallen angels are more powerful.

Bk

Interesting theory…where did you hear this and/or what makes you believe this?

 

[friardchips]

I am 100% with your post - except I am not sure what you mean by the last sentence. Are you saying that as a result of the exorcism, the demon falls to a lower/darker place in Hell?

As you said, how do angels move! To determine such a happening in its architecture is difficult to assume or to even make a logical guess.

Fallen Angels communicate via electrical impulses - felt through sensory modes that go some way to enabling us to experience the world temporally - (though I am not a scientist) stimulated in connection to the psyche (I think) and so there must be communication taking place, in which demons, from the place of Hell, can communicate with souls on this dimension of existence. This would remove the word ‘movement’ from the language we use to describe the actions of angels on a supernatural level.

If demons communicate from Hell, so to speak, then this tallies with the last paragraph regarding the opposite - a place of sanctity. The same rule applied…

So, if a specific demon communicates itself from Hell, with use of its intellect and will, but then chooses to fall back - if they choose to attack then they choose to fall back -
because the demon cannot handle the light omitted from the exorcism, then it does appear to correlate with the fall from Heaven. Demons cannot go back to a place of sanctity - if we recognise this correlation as a valid theory - because satan and the demons could not go back to Heaven, once they fell.

By using such a rule, we are then applying responsibility onto each person’s individual will in assurance of it being a place of required sanctity, as well as theoretically placing an account for the existence of each and every demon.

Now, after having chosen to attack a person’s will, and having fallen from the light of an exorcism, as the consequence, the demon is most-likely unable to re-enter that place. If we understand that demons attach themselves to our psyches, which are not perfectly in tune with our intellects on earth, and that this has probably been the case for all of our lives, then it is highly possible, that the person who had to have an exorcism, had always been under the influence of, or under attack from, a demon/demons, and so, the exorcism has brought about a renewed state of being in relation to those demons or that particular demon, and quite possibly freed the victim from all future influence from it.

As for a demon falling to a lower place in Hell. I don’t know. I think at present, it is more likely that a demon can still attack others but just not the same person. That said, maybe it is, that once thrown back, or better put, once they have thrown themselves back, in response to an exorcism, maybe this action then limits their existence and communication to a boundary: if they are faced with the light of exorcism and then fall from it, this is the equivalent of stating that they have again distorted their own intellects as a consequence of the process of exorcism.

 

[DanielStDominic]

…I have read from sources in the past, that demons fear being exorcised because once they have been exorcised, they can’t come back?!

Honestly, I wouldn’t trust your memory on this without first verifying it.

It is extremely common for the same demon to turn up again and again in exorcism.

 

[DanielStDominic]

…how sure are the exorcists that the entity they are expunging is the same as in previous cases?

A demon will not be exorcised without knowledge of who he was. And exorcisms don’t occur without some pretty solid evidence that a demon is present in the first place.

If I start telling you what secretly happened to you when you were 13 on some night in June, chances are high your first explanation won’t be that I have such knowledge because I’m mentally ill.

So it is with exorcism. The facts discussed in dialogue are not able to be explained without presupposing a preternatural intelligence.

 

[friardchips]

Honestly, I wouldn’t trust your memory on this without first verifying it.

It is extremely common for the same demon to turn up again and again in exorcism.

Am going to find the source (hopefully) where I read (or heard) this. I tend to think that demons have a particular link to humans, for the original reason they were created before the fall, and so while demons, at least the more powerful ones, can be present in more than one exorcism, I would think it is unlikely that they could return to the same person i.e:- the relational link between that particular demon and a particular person would be broken after an exorcism. Would be interesting to find out from an exorcist’s source as to whether this is the case.

 

[friardchips]

Okay, I have found one source, yet I don’t think this is the source I remember:

ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=306536&language=en

On the passage of the Bible referring to “Legion”:

‘The demons beg to be released into the swine rather than to be expelled completely from the local countryside. Modern exorcists testify that demons prefer to possess a person rather than be vanquished to hell, for their suffering is somehow less “outside” of hell–understood metaphysically, of course. So Jesus granted their request, knowing full well that the swine would not be able to sustain such an assault and would be driven to frenzy and destructive behavior–the natural consequence of pure evil. They charged into the sea and were drowned and given that the sea was associated with the abyss below and a potential source for evil, it probably represents their return to hell and elimination from the country, at least for a time and in this case.’

 

[friardchips]

This is just an interesting article about the subject of demonic activity. Doesn’t really answer my post in any way: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7370

 

[MtnDwellar]

Fallen Angels communicate via electrical impulses - felt through sensory modes that go some way to enabling us to experience the world temporally - (though I am not a scientist) stimulated in connection to the psyche (I think) and so there must be communication taking place, in which demons, from the place of Hell, can communicate with souls on this dimension of existence.

Where did you get the electrical impulse idea from?

My understanding is that angels and demons are pure spirit. As such, they are composed only of intellect and will. There is no electricity. Communication is directly between intellects.

 

[mdgspencer]

Jesus once said that a demon can reenter someone (in Matthew 12:43-45).
43
“When an unclean spirit goes out of a person it roams through arid regions searching for rest but finds none.
44
Then it says, ‘I will return to my home from which I came.’ But upon returning, it finds it empty, swept clean, and put in order.
45
Then it goes and brings back with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they move in and dwell there; and the last condition of that person is worse than the first. Thus it will be with this evil generation.”

The Catholic Church has an official rite of exorcism. Only priests. authorized by their bishop, can use this–not laypeople. As far as I know, deliverance groups could try to exorcise someone who is actually possessed (not simply obsessed or tempted) by demons. This would be unwise though–they should actually seek an official exorcist, which would be a priest, for this.

 

[friardchips]

Where did you get the electrical impulse idea from?

Good question. Thanks for your participation on the thread. I know that St. Augustine mentioned sensory perception - it ties in. Also, demonic attacks can result in physical touch which can be nothing but electrical impulses.

My understanding is that angels and demons are pure spirit. As such, they are composed only of intellect and will. There is no electricity. Communication is directly between intellects.

It is not as simple as that. The body is made up of nerves, and demons can somehow make physical touch, or give the impression of touch, and the only way that they could do this is via impulses which essentially begin in the brain and then subsequently are communicated to the rest of the body, and this is probably far more common than one would think, although demons are not in themselves, ‘physical’ beings. Demons can also take on a physical form, or at least, Satan can (maybe lesser demons can only do so by projecting images onto the victim’s mind). Check the demonic activities in St. Pio’s life account. Though the new form taken does not change from spirit-form, the demon, or at least satan, can appear in apparent physical form and attack with apparent physical touch.

This subject does not only require a certain analysis of the supernatural state but also the physical. If we remember that the spiritual is the basis of the physical then it is easier to see how the spiritual dimension has not a problem incorporating, to some degree, involvement in the physical world.

Also found this:

catholic.com/audio/cal/3784

• it does suggest that demons can reappear more than once, generally (doesn’t say whether it can attack the same person, however).

The speaker also mentions that an exorcism breaks the “power” of the demon “definitively”. Therefore, I would guess that this means, with this particular person, for good.

 

[friardchips]

Jesus once said that a demon can reenter someone (in Matthew 12:43-45).
43
“When an unclean spirit goes out of a person it roams through arid regions searching for rest but finds none.
44
Then it says, ‘I will return to my home from which I came.’ But upon returning, it finds it empty, swept clean, and put in order.
45
Then it goes and brings back with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they move in and dwell there; and the last condition of that person is worse than the first. Thus it will be with this evil generation.”

Yes, this is why I mentioned the difference between an exorcism, and deliverance prayers.

The Catholic Church has an official rite of exorcism. Only priests. authorized by their bishop, can use this–not laypeople. As far as I know, deliverance groups could try to exorcise someone who is actually possessed (not simply obsessed or tempted) by demons. This would be unwise though–they should actually seek an official exorcist, which would be a priest, for this.

Healing ministries within the Catholic Church are legit. But I too would favour exorcism as the most efficient route for the removal of diabolical infiltration.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Good question. Thanks for your participation on the thread. I know that St. Augustine mentioned sensory perception - it ties in. Also, demonic attacks can result in physical touch which can be nothing but electrical impulses.

It is not as simple as that. The body is made up of nerves and demons can somehow make physical touch. Demons can also take on a physical form, or at least, Satan can (maybe lesser demons can only do so by projecting images onto the victim’s mind). Check the demonic activities in St. Pio’s life account. Though the new form taken does not change from spirit form, the demon, or at least satan, can appear in physical form and attack physically. This subject does not only require a certain analysis of the supernatural state but also the physical. If we remember that the spiritual is the basis of the physical then it is easier to see how the spiritual dimension has not a problem incorporating, to some degree, involvement in the physical world. I think demon participation to the point of touch via impulses that essentially begins in the brain and subsequently to the rest of the body, is probably more common than one would think, although demons are not in themselves, ‘physical’ beings.

Remember, a demon’s will is far more powerful than our own wills. When a person feels physical contact from a demon, it is totally an act of the demon’s will.

One can forget about conventional physics when discussing the spiritual realm. Laws regarding matter and energy do not apply.