Re-enchanting the mass

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JKirkLVNV:
Sorry, what do you mean, “my song?” I haven’t written one. I can tell you some songs I do think appropriate if you like. Look, I said the tune was bad, it could be re-set to another tune, in fact I’m fairly sure it has been.
I mean that it’s not easy to write music that everybody is going to like. I know a lot of people who like “On Eagles Wings” and sing it to the best of their ability whenever given the opportunity.
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t glorify God.
As far as burlap goes, can you imagine an image of Our Lady on something even crummier - a poor quality cactus-cloth?
You don’t have to, it’s Our Lady of Guadalupe.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
So that picture of Our Blessed Mother that caused such a stir in New York a few years ago, the one made out of elephant’s dung…that glorified Our Lady?
I don’t beleive that was the intention of the artist, so no.
 
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arieh0310:
I guess this is why I prefer a mass that is the result of centuries of meditation, contemplation, and Tradition as opposed to a contemporary mass that seems its main goal is to entertain. (BTW, I am not a TLM, Latin only traditionalist–when I say “contemporary mass” I am talking more of the evangelical-clone masses)

When contemporary elements are inserted into the mass some people think they are too innovative, some like them, and others feel they are “so five years ago”. It seems too subjective.
I think the Mass of Paul VI is perfectly reverent, celebrated without abuses. I don’t like the TLM because I cannot understand it and cannot hear it well enough to follow it anyway (the silent Canon and everything said in an undertone).
 
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palmas85:
If you really mean what you wrote, than you cannot possibly have a problem with the Mass being said in Latin and using Gregorian Chant or Plainchant. After all, it’s not about you is it? 🙂
I don’t have a problem with it.
I just don’t think it’s more reverent.
The Mass is also more understandable in English, for me, but I wouldn’t insist on it in Germany.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I think the Mass of Paul VI is perfectly reverent, celebrated without abuses. I don’t like the TLM because I cannot understand it and cannot hear it well enough to follow it anyway (the silent Canon and everything said in an undertone).
This is kinda what I am getting at. I attend a NO mass that is celebrated in a manner that I think is in line with the intentions of VII. Parts of the mass are said in Latin (which connects you with history and the cathlicity of the Latin Church), some are in English (so you feel like you know what is going on without having to read a missal), chants are sung to give you a taste of 15 centuries of tradition, the Eucharist is treated like it were more valuable than gold, and the priest faces east.
 
Joe Gloor:
I don’t have a problem with it.
I just don’t think it’s more reverent.
The Mass is also more understandable in English, for me, but I wouldn’t insist on it in Germany.
To each his own, being from the old days myself, I can truthfully tell you that I never had much of a problem understanding the Latin, primarily because the translations were right there in the Missal Of course that did require that you read them, but after a short while you were actually able to understand the parts you heard anyway. I was anyway.

What I found amazing though, that was when I went to see the Passion when it first came out, I actually recognized and understood the Latin dialogue, because I had heard it so many times before. It was an incredibly moving experience, and led in no small part to my returning to the Traditional Mass on Sundays. Imagine, hearing the words, or at least some of them as Christ actually spoke. And yes, I know he spoke Aramaic, Hebrew and possibly Greek as well. But, I still think that the dialogue with Pontious Pilate was probably in Latin, maybe not, but since Roman government business was conducted in Latin or Greek, I doubt it was in any other than those two.

Of course I still attend Novus Ordo during the week. 🙂
 
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arieh0310:
This is kinda what I am getting at. I attend a NO mass that is celebrated in a manner that I think is in line with the intentions of VII. Parts of the mass are said in Latin (which connects you with history and the cathlicity of the Latin Church), some are in English (so you feel like you know what is going on without having to read a missal), chants are sung to give you a taste of 15 centuries of tradition, and the Eucharist is treated like it were more valuable than gold.
I was under the impression that the participation of the congregation was an important part of the NO.
A lot of people know the parts of the Mass in English but not in Latin and so do not participate when they are recited that way.
But I don’t know anyone who knows the Latin and doesn’t know the English translation.
Is “cathlicity” in the dictionary?
 
Joe Gloor:
I was under the impression that the participation of the congregation was an important part of the NO.
the congregation is very large and everyone responds in Latin, it isn’t hard.
 
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arieh0310:
the congregation is very large and everyone responds in Latin, it isn’t hard.
It’s by rote then. Is there a difference between that and ABBA (the Swedish Pop Group) mimicing English and not understanding what they are singing?
How is “AGNUS DEI” more reverent than “Lamb of God”?
 
Joe Gloor:
It’s by rote then. Is there a difference between that and ABBA (the Swedish Pop Group) mimicing English and not understanding what they are singing?
How is “AGNUS DEI” more reverent than “Lamb of God”?
It isn’t. It’s just Latin. Some people like it (I *like *Latin, I just think the majority of the Mass should be in the vernacular, as I personally think the Mass evanglizes people into the Church. I know it was part of what did it for me).
 
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JKirkLVNV:
It isn’t. It’s just Latin. Some people like it (I *like *Latin, I just think the majority of the Mass should be in the vernacular, as I personally think the Mass evanglizes people into the Church. I know it was part of what did it for me).
I think that was my original point - that English is just as reverent as Latin - and if the translation is sloppy - as is the usual complaint, that should be fixed not done away with.
And I agree with you. I like Latin, too. It can say things in a very expressive manner - I’m thinking specifically of Tantum Ergo (the melody of which reminds me of the type-writer song by the Boston Pops).
And I also think the Mass should be in the vernacular as well.
The English (for us) allows us to dwell on the meaning of the words rather than the translation. I doubt that most people pray in Latin at home, why do it at Church?
 
JKirkLVNV said:
😦 Our pastor, an orthodox man, is enamored of Medjugore. Come and visit us, Netmil(name removed by moderator), you can buy a rosary blessed by our sweet Lady Herself.:rolleyes:

:rotfl:

Right after she read her prewritten script, right?
 
Right after she read her prewritten script, right?
[/quote]

PREEEEE-cisely!
 
Joe Gloor:
That’s your opinion.
I think that even tackiness, if intended to glorify God, does glorify Him.
I also think that Handel’s “Messiah” would be a something an angel choir would scrape off of it’s collective shoe with a stick.
Well and that’s your opinion as well.
If all anyone had was burlap and his intent was to glorify the Lord, God Love Him (as is your reference to Our Lady of Guadalupe)
But lets face it, the tackiest burlap banners are in some of the highest priced churches. We have to be realistic about it.

If my five year old cut felt and stuck it on burlap then gave it to me for my birthday, I would love it.
If my husband did the same, Hmmmmmmmmm.
 
Joe Gloor:
I mean that it’s not easy to write music that everybody is going to like. I know a lot of people who like “On Eagles Wings” and sing it to the best of their ability whenever given the opportunity.
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t glorify God.
As far as burlap goes, can you imagine an image of Our Lady on something even crummier - a poor quality cactus-cloth?
You don’t have to, it’s Our Lady of Guadalupe.
Ah, you shame me, you’re quite right about the tilma of San Juan Diego. I shall ask pardon of the Blessed Mother and I ask your pardon as well. BUT, as to the question of burlap: I can see that in a parish that has no resources whatsoever, but I happen to attend one of the wealthiest parishes in my city, if not my state. We can afford better than burlap and felt. Don’t we have an obligation to do the best WE can do, without depriving the poor who depend on us? Burlap bags were what calf feed came in, where I’m from.

“Eagles’ Wings,” for me, stands as a universal, that universal being what I regard as the appalling contribution of Oregon Catholic Press to the state of liturgical music. Sorry if I was too specific.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
If my five year old cut felt and stuck it on burlap then gave it to me for my birthday, I would love it.
If my husband did the same, Hmmmmmmmmm.
You said it better than I, Netmil(name removed by moderator), probably the reason Our Lord used parables.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
If my five year old cut felt and stuck it on burlap then gave it to me for my birthday, I would love it.
If my husband did the same, Hmmmmmmmmm.
really… that would be a tad bit tacky of him.
 
Joe Gloor:
It’s by rote then. Is there a difference between that and ABBA (the Swedish Pop Group) mimicing English and not understanding what they are singing?
How is “AGNUS DEI” more reverent than “Lamb of God”?
Isn’t everything rote? My five year old sings in the choir. She doesn’t read well enough to learn it by reading. It’s rote. As was your learning the mass in the vernacular and all your prayers in English.

Your ABBA reference is funny. Where did you get the idea that they didn’t understand what they were singing?? We are into the Studio Ghibli movies. At the end of “The Cat Returns” is a cute little song called “Kaze ni Naru”. We sing it in Japanese just like on the DVD. We learned it by rote memorization and know the meaning of the words by research on the internet. The song makes us feel so good, we sing it all the time. Kind of like the Agnus Dei or the Gloria in Latin. It’s personal opinion, but it’s not the words as much as the way it makes you feel. I feel like a Catholic when I sing Latin, being that it is the official language of the Latin church.
 
I was cleaning our little church the other day when our priest came in to take a Host to an ill parishoner.

All this being highly visible…Tabernacle centred on the Altar in the Sanctuary area. The Host transferred with reverance to the pyx carried by the priest near his breast under his cassock.

The cleaners on their knees for the few moments, mops and dusters down

How can there be reverance when the Tabernacle is not visible in most Chuches these days
 
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JKirkLVNV:
You said it better than I, Netmil(name removed by moderator), probably the reason Our Lord used parables.
Thanks!
Some people here think that I liken myself to Him, but really, while I am working on humility, I don’t.
 
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