Re-enchanting the mass

[the_phoenix]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Isn’t everything rote? …
Your ABBA reference is funny. Where did you get the idea that they didn’t understand what they were singing?? We are into the Studio Ghibli movies. At the end of “The Cat Returns” is a cute little song called “Kaze ni Naru”. We sing it in Japanese just like on the DVD. We learned it by rote memorization and know the meaning of the words by research on the internet. The song makes us feel so good, we sing it all the time. Kind of like the Agnus Dei or the Gloria in Latin. It’s personal opinion, but it’s not the words as much as the way it makes you feel.

Dear netmil(name removed by moderator):

Nice to see your post. Just returned home from taking a Japanese 101 final exam and am now up for a discussion on Latin! Rote, btw, to my mind, is a stepping stone allowing you to grow into far more.

As for the Latin Mass … while I have in fact studied Latin for three years in high school … by rote memorization, of course, … Really, I don’t stress over whether I can understand or translate every single word spoken by the priest. Just being present at the Latin Mass feels like God drawing near in an intimate way, so that even every particle of oxygen in the air is enriched. This feeling can happen at the English Novus Ordo Mass as well … just, … for me, … not as often/deep.

General Comments to All:

Why is it that so often people feel as though they must “choose up sides” … so that this topic can all too easily become one of English vs. Latin? Why not BOTH Latin AND English, BOTH in a reverent manner rightly befitting Our Lord Jesus? There’s no need to disparage one or the other.

As St. Faustina wrote in her diary, “Divine Mercy in My Soul,” our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/book2/

… each soul is a world of its own. God has various ways of communicating with souls, ways that are often beyond our comprehension and notice. Therefore the superior should be careful not to hinder God’s action in a soul.

For the record, while I prefer the Latin Mass and can attend one at a parish downtown, I’ve just joined a Novus Ordo parish instead. Both parishes are good from what I can tell so far … Therefore, I may as well reap the benefits of attending Mass in both Latin and English.

~~ the phoenix

 

[JKirkLVNV]

the phoenix:

Why is it that so often people feel as though they must “choose up sides” … so that this topic can all too easily become one of Latin vs. English. Why not BOTH Latin AND English, BOTH in a reverent manner rightly befitting Our Lord Jesus? There’s no need to disparage one or the other.

Well, Netmil(name removed by moderator) and a few others being the exception, here’s why:

A) Some people on these threads say the TLM is more reverent. That’s a subjective opinion and hard to take when you love the Pauline Mass as I do.

B) Some people on these threads disparge the Mass of Paul VI and say that it inherently lends itself to abuse, as though the TLM was abuse-proof. That’s also hard to take when you love the Pauline Mass as I do.

C) Some people on these threads want to entirely get rid of the Mass of Paul VI and have only the TLM…which is really, really hard to take when you love the Pauline Mass as I do.

That’s why!

 

[the_phoenix]

Hail and Well Met, JKirkLVNV!

While I have a definite response in mind, perhaps part of it should wait until we’ve become better acquainted. Some things are said to and heard by friends with an understanding already built between them more easily than by people who have only just crossed paths on the internet for the first time. For now, please let me start with, I admire and share your love of the Pauline Mass, fully realizing that whether the Mass is English or Latin, the same Jesus Christ becomes Truly Present to us in the Eucharist.

~~ the phoenix

 

[netmilsmom]

the phoenix:

Dear netmil(name removed by moderator):

Nice to see your post. Just returned home from taking a Japanese 101 final exam and am now up for a discussion on Latin!
~~ the phoenix

How’d you do?
In my opinion, Japanese is much tougher than Latin. I do force my girls to read the subtitles for some of the Ghibli films. At their age, they need all the reading they can get. Not Totoro, though!
And we are studying “English from the Roots Up”

 

[Joe_Gloor]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Isn’t everything rote?

I don’t think so.
Children understand words before they can speak them.
Although, I suspect you are partially correct.
To me, the whole Latin thing is just a way of making those who know it (by rote) feel better about their worship, for some incomprehensible reason.
I grant you that there are those who recite the prayers at Mass as if they were somewhere else and not thinking about what they are saying - but that takes place in Latin as well as in English.
I believe that using Latin excludes marginal Catholics from fully participating in the Mass - for no good purpose.
Here’s another gripe I have:
In the Church I attend there is a group of parisheners who, when reciting certain prayers, ostentatiously fall out of sync with the Priest and the rest of the Congregation by slowing down and emphasizing their prayer so that everybody knows they “really mean it”.
I think this is elitist and if they were Jews in Jesus day they would also lengthen their phylacteries just to show how holy they are.

As far as ABBA goes, I can’t recall where I heard that, but I did hear it. Who knows if it’s true.

 

[Joe_Gloor]

JKirkLVNV:

BUT, as to the question of burlap: I can see that in a parish that has no resources whatsoever, but I happen to attend one of the wealthiest parishes in my city, if not my state. We can afford better than burlap and felt. Don’t we have an obligation to do the best WE can do, without depriving the poor who depend on us? Burlap bags were what calf feed came in, where I’m from.

“Eagles’ Wings,” for me, stands as a universal, that universal being what I regard as the appalling contribution of Oregon Catholic Press to the state of liturgical music. Sorry if I was too specific.

I suppose I’m nit-picking, but maybe the Church has something better to do with their money than spend it on Glorious Banners that are used for two or three weeks and then put in a closet until next year.
As far as music goes, I’ve been in quite a few different “contemporary” choirs (I play guitar) and I have to agree that some of the music I’ve had to play is not great. And very little of it is “contemporary”.
But, look, some of the “old” music is just as bad, if not worse.
I used to hate to select the music for a Mass and I generally went with stuff I knew so that I could at least play and sing it well.
You get better participation when you have songs that the people already know, good or bad.

 

[Confiteor]

In addition to including and knowing the ordinary parts (of the Pauline Mass) in Latin (which is called for in Sacramentum Concilium), the Pope has urged Catholics to memorize basic prayers in Latin:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0503776.htm

 

[Joe_Gloor]

Pope:

Presenting the new “Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church,” Pope Benedict XVI urged Catholics around the world to memorize the most common Catholic prayers in Latin.

Learning the prayers in Latin as well as in one’s own language “will help Christian faithful of different languages pray together, especially when they gather for special circumstances,” the pope said June 28 as he distributed the Italian version of the compendium, which included an appendix with the Latin texts of many traditional prayers, including the Sign of the Cross, the Gloria, the Hail Mary and Come, Holy Spirit.
…
Pope Benedict reminded those gathered for the prayer service what he had said about Latin formulations when he presented the Latin edition of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” to Pope John Paul in 1997: “Latin, for centuries the vehicle and instrument of Christian culture, guarantees not only continuity with our roots, but remains as relevant as ever for strengthening the bonds of the unity of the faith in the communion of the church.”

I hate it when I disagree with the Pope. That usually means I have to change what I think…

 

[netmilsmom]

Joe Gloor:

I don’t think so.
Children understand words before they can speak them.

No my friend, children understand inflection and sounds. Just like a puppy. If you smile at a nine month old baby and say, “No” with a lilt in your voice, he will never stop doing what he is doing.

Here’s another gripe I have:
In the Church I attend there is a group of parisheners who, when reciting certain prayers, ostentatiously fall out of sync with the Priest and the rest of the Congregation by slowing down and emphasizing their prayer so that everybody knows they “really mean it”.
I think this is elitist and if they were Jews in Jesus day they would also lengthen their phylacteries just to show how holy they are.

ACCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK! Oh I agree with you there! I’m not sure of the motivation but it messes me up.
I can’t watch the Rosary from the Holy Land on EWTN because of that. One man is off from everyone else.