Re-evangelization of europe

[Rock7]

I am interested greatly in this subject. I heard that Benedict XVI set that as a goal. There were a few news articles asking or explaining why he failed. I was just interested in re-evangelization of the continent that incubated the faith.

 

[VanSensei]

You have to remember that unlike the United States or Canada, the Catholic Church was also a de facto political power in much of Europe. It had way too much power in places like Ireland, for example. Because of that, among other things, the Church has lost a lot of credibility and I don’t think it’ll ever be reevangelized.

 

[RC_Sojourner]

I read this very encouraging piece yesterday, about a resurgence of Catholic, and Christian faith in Eastern Europe. True, we like to think of Western Europe when we think of Europe, but we can’t ignore what’s going on in the former Soviet countries. The Holy Spirit is really working in these formerly secular-atheistic places [the article mainly talks about Hungary and Croatia].

firstthings.com/onthesquare/2014/01/eastern-europes-christian-reawakening

Unless we’re Europeans, the easiest way we can help is to pray. If we want society to change, then its going to take a lot of prayer.

 

[Viewer]

I’m doubtful that this could work. Of course the Church will always pick up a few converts here and there but I think in some places the Catholic church has “blown it” so to speak.

I’ll use Ireland as an example. Ireland is still a majority Roman Catholic country, and while this has been bolstered by the influx of devout Polish the abuse cases within Church-ran institutions that keep coming out every other week non stop have gravely damaged the faith, not faith in Christ but faith in the Catholic Church as an organization.

It’s not quite Newfoundland where the damage is absolute, but there are some gaping wounds that are just not going to heal. From the lack of support during the time British rule, to the shutting of the churches during the potato famine to the constant expose’s of horrific institutional abuses by both Nuns, Priests and lay servers alike over the past eighty years?

There are only so many times you can kick a dog before it bites back, and there is no way in a million years the Irish will accept again the same sort of influence the Catholic Church exerted over them only a few decades ago.

There is very little chance for re-evangelization in some parts of Europe, those efforts are better placed in Africa where the church hasn’t gathered quite as shady a reputation.

 

[Rock7]

Well what about the UK, France, Germany or the Scandinavian countries? I have just heard they are very resistant to the gospel? I don’t know.

 

[Viewer]

Well what about the UK, France, Germany or the Scandinavian countries? I have just heard they are very resistant to the gospel? I don’t know.

France also has a considerable Roman Catholic population, of course being historically Roman Catholic up until the time of the revolution (funnily enough one of the main complaints from the revolutionaries then was abuse of power by the Catholic Church, or the “second estate” as it was sometimes known). It remains present in society, but it is never going to be trusted again to be the major guiding influence it once was.

Germany and the UK while for different reasons also historically retained anti-catholic feelings, albeit theirs stem from being the center of the Reformation (Germany) and the long lasting but personal decisions taken by the Tudor monarchs (UK).

The Scandinavian countries have been heavily influenced by German and Calvinistic feeling, along with the other Theologians like Jan Haus. Their objections to Catholic teachings like France (but they took up the cause earlier) were also were motivated by the perceived excesses of the Catholic Church, but also major theological differences (unlike France or Ireland).

While Atheism is widespread in Scandinavia elsewhere faith in Christ is still strong, just not faith in the Catholic Church. If they were resistant to the gospel organizations like the Churches of Denmark and England wouldn’t exist and some other faith would have taken hold.

 

[Deus_tecum]

We often tend to look at the world through worldly eyes and decide what can or cannot happen, but we should look through spiritual eyes and imagine what should be, and recall “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven” and you will know in your heart that Europe could be re-evangelized.

If one doesn’t believe something could happen, how likely are they to even pray for it?

Glory to God in the highest.

 

[Rock7]

I agree wholeheartedly. I understand the historical reasons for anti-catholicism. I am talking about the influence of modernist and post-modernist thinking in other words moral relativism and god is dead feel that I understand permeates Europe. How we do we evangelize that?

 

[Viewer]

I agree wholeheartedly. I understand the historical reasons for anti-catholicism. I am talking about the influence of modernist and post-modernist thinking in other words moral relativism and god is dead feel that I understand permeates Europe. How we do we evangelize that?

Public charitable works. I can’t speak for everyone experience but a “benevolent” religion in the eyes of non-believers that I have met is one with an avowed interest in public works, yet keeps away from the political sphere (seperation of church and state is very, very, veerrrrrry important in Europe, far far more so than in the USA).

Much of the charitable works undertaken by the church seem to go noticed, if these were highlighted and even more undertaken the Church might regain some trust and recognition as a force for good, or at very least respect which in turn might draw back believers or invite new ones in.

Atheism isn’t quite as all present as it often seems to be. I believe on the UK census a considerable proportion of people chose to identify as “Spiritual” or “Christian” than any set denomination. God isn’t dead, but people are very wary of organizations that claim to hold the only hotline to him.

 

[chero23]

I know stuff were done in the past, that some people feel alienated or distraught, but the Catholic Church has grown and it is the church of God.

They have to understand that it was humans making human mistakes, the church never made anything wrong. God willing they see that and are able to slowly come to God.

 

[Viewer]

I know stuff were done in the past, that some people feel alienated or distraught, but the Catholic Church has grown and it is the church of God.

They have to understand that it was humans making human mistakes, the church never made anything wrong. God willing they see that and are able to slowly come to God.

Now. I don’t want to sound like a nag here or a dissenter, but this kind of statement is exactly why people are leaving the Catholic Church in places like Ireland.

You are quite right, it was human malevolence (I don’t consider raping a child a mistake)
behind many of these scandals, but here is the defining difference. When a teacher in a secular school decides to rape a child he is outcast from society, punished for his crimes and the victims are compensated in some way, at the very least knowing justice was done.

When a Nun in a Magdalene Laundry decides to imprison a rape victim for 20 years and beat her regularly…Nothing happens. We don’t even find out about it until the woman breaks out. Were this any other institution [and not the Catholic Church] in Ireland it would not exist anymore. It would have been dissolved and banished from sight for good. Clearly the fact it continue to operate is a good thing for believers, but there is a great deal of unrest about how as an organization it has gotten away with it.

Various arms of the Catholic Church have committed some of the most heinous acts of human history, and it rarely accepts it was in the wrong. When the Church moves a known pedophile into another parish to rape more children, and then another one after that it’s not a mistake, that is collaborating. It’s never the Church’s fault, it’s always humanities fault. Well excuse me but I didn’t shove my man bits up that kids backside and then tell the parents johnny was a liar when he complained about it. No, I think that was one of our Bishops supporting the priest.

The Catholic Church may be God’s church, but it needs to own up to what it’s been backing and stop trying to worm out of it.

This is coming from an Irish Catholic, I’m being very lenient compared to many of my freinds who have lost their faith.

 

[RC_Sojourner]

I’m doubtful that this could work. Of course the Church will always pick up a few converts here and there but I think in some places the Catholic church has “blown it” so to speak.

I’ll use Ireland as an example. Ireland is still a majority Roman Catholic country, and while this has been bolstered by the influx of devout Polish the abuse cases within Church-ran institutions that keep coming out every other week non stop have gravely damaged the faith, not faith in Christ but faith in the Catholic Church as an organization.

There is very little chance for re-evangelization in some parts of Europe, those efforts are better placed in Africa where the church hasn’t gathered quite as shady a reputation.

Well, even if Ireland completely lost the faith, if a Holy Man came to Ireland, he could bring the whole island under the yoke of Catholicism, couldn’t he? #St. Patrick.

I’m sorry. I’ve read your four long posts, and in the most charitable way possible, I’m going to implore you to have more faith. For an increase in faith: Hail Mary.

“of course the Church will always pick up a few converts”… NO. The Church isn’t guaranteed to always pick up a few converts… yet, the opposite isn’t true either, “There is very little chance of re-evangelizing Europe”

You don’t know either one of those, do you? Only God does!

I’d implore you to have an increase of hope! For an increase in Hope: Hail Mary

St. Francis Xavier converted over 30,000 people in Asia.

chero23 is right. God can. Ok? God can.
It doesn’t matter how “shady” a reputation the Church has. The Holy Spirit can work. The Holy Spirit is the one that actually converts people. We need to be a holier people, and stop caring about the sensibilities of modern man… All four of your posts here smack of the concerns of the modern world.

Well, maybe we should stop having those concerns, and be more concerned with the Will of Christ and the Holy Spirit. OR, we could make that our only concern…

If we did that, I guarantee you the Church would start converting masses of people. We don’t do that though. We’re concerned with:

Viewer:

there is no way in a million years the Irish will accept

Viewer:

but it is never going to be trusted again

[in France, you wrote]

Viewer:

were also were motivated by the perceived excesses of the Catholic Church, but also major theological differences

[In Germany]

Viewer:

If they were resistant to the gospel organizations like

[In Scandanavia]

Viewer:

The Catholic Church may be God’s church, but it needs to own up to what it’s been backing and stop trying to worm out of it.
This is coming from an Irish Catholic, I’m being very lenient compared to many of my freinds who have lost their faith.

AND

Viewer:

God isn’t dead, but people are very wary of organizations that claim to hold the only hotline to him.

Look! The TWO times you mention God! And what a mention He gets! Huh?

You need to have more faith, I’m sorry. But these posts you’ve made are the most hopeless things I’ve read on this forum in a long time. You know, I study up on the situation of the Catholic Church in many nations as well… here’s a bookmark of mine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country
Here’s another: thearda.com/

Just because history and statistics and even peoples sensibilities are a certain way, doesn’t mean these countries couldn’t be 100% Catholic in one year. In one day. The Holy Spirit could make that happen. Jesus Christ could come back… and all these people, who have all these reservations, they would all bend their knees and bow their heads at the sound of His name!

And, a lot of them would be begging in vein to be saved.

We need to do the Will of the Holy Spirit NOW, while they still can be saved. When Judgement Day comes, if they aren’t rejoicing on that day, there is no hope for their salvation.

 

[RC_Sojourner]

A simpler response would be: do you pray for Europe, Viewer?

Because, I don’t get the impression that you do. Do you have faith that your prayers will make a difference?

Because I pray for the nations. I study up on whether the Church is growing or declining in places, but I pray for all of them. And I have faith that my prayers will make a difference. Just yesterday I had such broad prayers as, “for the conversion of all Protestants to the Catholic faith”, etc.

I hope you have faith in prayer, it just doesn’t sound like you do. Forgive me if that offends you in any way. But, I say it out of genuine love for you. You seem to have a very bad perspective about things, a very grim view indeed…

 

[Viewer]

Well, even if Ireland completely lost the faith, if a Holy Man came to Ireland, he could bring the whole island under the yoke of Catholicism, couldn’t he? #St. Patrick.

A snowball has a better chance of surviving a trip through Dante’s nine circles of Inferno.

St Patrick arrived in Ireland at a time where the Church as an organization was relatively unknown. We’ve now had many centuries of experience of the Catholic Church and understand very well it’s long and quite frankly dark history of action in Europe.

If a man like St Patrick showed up today and began to preach he might indeed find some success. But if he did it as a representative of the Catholic Church? No chance, people do not trust it and quite understandably.

I’m sorry. I’ve read your four long posts, and in the most charitable way possible, I’m going to implore you to have more faith. For an increase in faith: Hail Mary.

My faith in God does not waver RC Sojourner, but I am forced to take a realistic view of my homeland and where I live today.

“of course the Church will always pick up a few converts”… NO. The Church isn’t guaranteed to always pick up a few converts… yet, the opposite isn’t true either, “There is very little chance of re-evangelizing Europe”

You don’t know either one of those, do you? Only God does!

I’d implore you to have an increase of hope! For an increase in Hope: Hail Mary

Your prayers are appreciated and I do wish I could feel as hopeful as you clearly do. Short of a miracle of unprecedented scale directly linked to the Catholic Church as an organization I just cannot logically see how this can happen.

St. Francis Xavier converted over 30,000 people in Asia.

Who in places like Japan were then more or less promptly massacred and the faith never returned.

chero23 is right. God can. Ok? God can.
It doesn’t matter how “shady” a reputation the Church has. The Holy Spirit can work. The Holy Spirit is the one that actually converts people. We need to be a holier people, and stop caring about the sensibilities of modern man… All four of your posts here smack of the concerns of the modern world.

Because it is the modern world I live in, and not the medieval world. It is the concerns of the modern world we need to consider and adapt to tackle directly.

Well, maybe we should stop having those concerns, and be more concerned with the Will of Christ and the Holy Spirit. OR, we could make that our only concern…

If we did that, I guarantee you the Church would start converting masses of people. We don’t do that though. We’re concerned with:

[in France, you wrote]

[In Germany]

[In Scandanavia]

AND

Look! The TWO times you mention God! And what a mention He gets! Huh?

This is where we differ as does the modern world. The Catholic Church historically has been criticised apart from God. When complaints are directed against the Church they are not directed as God, but at the institution that claims to serve him.

I know this is a difficult concept for a Catholic to grasp but it is an important distinction. Many of my friends (some of whom were abused in Church Institutions or left in wake of the expose’s) have ceased attending mass, but they still retain faith in Christ.

You need to have more faith, I’m sorry. But these posts you’ve made are the most hopeless things I’ve read on this forum in a long time. You know, I study up on the situation of the Catholic Church in many nations as well… here’s a bookmark of mine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country
Here’s another: thearda.com/

Just because history and statistics and even peoples sensibilities are a certain way, doesn’t mean these countries couldn’t be 100% Catholic in one year. In one day. The Holy Spirit could make that happen. Jesus Christ could come back… and all these people, who have all these reservations, they would all bend their knees and bow their heads at the sound of His name!

Tell me RC. I don’t know if you have children but lets say you found out your son had been brutally raped by his teacher, would you ever send him to that school again? The Teacher may have left, but I’m sure you might struggle to trust that institution ever again with the care of your child.

I know I certainly wouldn’t, I haven’t left the Catholic church but I would be very, very wary of leaving my children in the care of its representatives knowing how some members of it operate.

Yes, Jesus could come back and this might be one of the few things that could change how people view the Catholic Church if he gave it his vote of confidence. Short of that however, the Church has to resort to far more mundane methods of improving its reputation.

We need to do the Will of the Holy Spirit NOW, while they still can be saved. When Judgement Day comes, if they aren’t rejoicing on that day, there is no hope for their salvation.

If this is the case then the Catholic Church has only itself to blame. Ireland was absolutely and totally subject to the will of Rome, and look at how it’s devotion was rewarded, with either neglect during times like the famine where the Church’s guidance was needed most and direct abuse once it’s domination was absolute.

They were once rejoicing, but that party was cut short by the Church’s actions. It will take nothing short of a return of Christ and his direct approval to reverse this damage.

 

[Viewer]

A simpler response would be: do you pray for Europe, Viewer?

No, it’s just not something that has really crossed my mind during that time.

Because, I don’t get the impression that you do. Do you have faith that your prayers will make a difference?

I believe prayer can make a difference, but I suppose my prayers are also tinged with realism. Would you pray for the ability to grow wings? I tend to view prayers for the reconversion of Europe along those lines. I may pray for the sick, I may pray for the souls of the deceased but I would rarely consider praying for an institution.

I’d love to be proven otherwise, but the Catholic Church did have control of Europe for centuries. Europe rebelled and shut it out because of what a poor job the Church did.

Because I pray for the nations. I study up on whether the Church is growing or declining in places, but I pray for all of them. And I have faith that my prayers will make a difference. Just yesterday I had such broad prayers as, “for the conversion of all Protestants to the Catholic faith”, etc.

I hope you have faith in prayer, it just doesn’t sound like you do. Forgive me if that offends you in any way. But, I say it out of genuine love for you. You seem to have a very bad perspective about things, a very grim view indeed…

I’m not offended in the slightest! I do have faith in prayer, but I think something like the conversion of all protestants is out of scope and unrealistic on the same level as a prayer to be king or to have supernatural powers.

The fact that even after 2000 years Catholicism cannot expunge or convert countless thousands of non-christian faiths as well as the hundreds of protestant denominations suggests that it is a task perhaps designed to be futile. The Church will continue to exist, I have faith and hope in that but I very much doubt it will hold as much sway as it once did.

After seeing the cases in Ireland and Newfoundland unfold I’m not even sure, even as a believer, that I would even want it to. Absolute power corrupts.

 

[Rock7]

Doesn’t Holy Writ say with God all
Things are possible? I would hope that if it was God’s will the continent could be re-evangelized. Of course the church might have to purify herself and what not. Though I am sure that if God’s will is for the continent to be brought back into the fold then it will be.

 

[RC_Sojourner]

Yes, Jesus could come back and this might be one of the few things that could change how people view the Catholic Church if he gave it his vote of confidence. Short of that however, the Church has to resort to far more mundane methods of improving its reputation.

They were once rejoicing, but that party was cut short by the Church’s actions. It will take nothing short of a return of Christ and his direct approval to reverse this damage.

Look, we have a profound disagreement, that is a matter of opinion. Personally, I think your opinion isn’t a Catholic opinion, but a man-made opinion. In other words, its your opinion, and not that of the Catholic Church, or the Bride of the Catholic Church, Jesus Christ.

However, outside of that disagreement, I’ve chosen to quote the above two statements. You are factually wrong about the above.

When Jesus Christ comes back, there will be Judgement Day. It won’t be “hey, Jesus is back, let’s give one final homily to convert people”. No. There will be no “Jesus giving his vote of confidence” to the Church. There will not be “Christ and his direct approval”. No.

We have free will. Life is a test. Either we pass or fail. Ok?

When Jesus Christ comes back, that’s it. All evangelism ends. The time for evangelism ceases. All of humanity will immediately fall on their knees, and bow their heads at the sound of the name of Jesus Christ! Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!

[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 2:10-11[/BIBLEDRB]

Ok?

When Jesus Christ sets foot on the Earth again, 100% of all humanity will A. Believe in Him, and B. worship Him, by kneeling, bowing, and confessing He is Lord, and probably be praying/ singing. All will worship Him and acknowledge Him as Lord.

However, the people that were destined for Hell, will all still go there. Now is the time to evangelize, you shouldn’t use Christ coming back as an excuse to not evangelize, in fact, I was using it as a reason to URGE PEOPLE TO DO IT NOW!

When Christ comes back, time is up. All people will rejoice, the saved will be saved, and the damned will be damned.

Sorry if that’s redundant or repetitive. But, while on the first count of whether Europe will be re-evangelized, I believe a difference of opinion is allowable even amongst Catholics.

On what happens when Christ comes back, you are simply wrong. And, I hope that this reproof will correct your thinking on it. If not, then you hold an opinion contrary to the Catholic faith. So, I really hope you don’t get defensive, and just acknowledge that you were wrong on this one.

 

[Viewer]

Ah…How I love the smell of rabid bible bashing in the morning.

I was in no way reffering to the day of judgement or the last coming, I was trying to point out that there is no recovery for Europe. The Chuch messed up spectacuarly, and it would take a miracle of unprecedented proportions to counter it (The second coming would count, but the end of all things wasn’t quite what I had in mind).

Even if we use your points and quotes, the Church will never succeed at evangelizing Europe. On that day that will be the doings of Christ, not the Catholic Church.

I don’t think I’m wrong at all, my point remains valid. The Catholic church screwed up and abused it’s position, and now it has increasingly smaller numbers of faithful in Europe as testament to it.

 

[Avila123]

I believe that Europe can be re-evangelised. Russia suppressed the Church, imprisoned and tortured priests and religious, the Church survived and is now accepted to the extent that it is involved in a number of programs with the Government. I doubt it is all wonderful but through God’s grace, little by little the Church is moving in a good way in Russia. I like the phrase “little by little” because that is how God described how he would take the Israelites to the promised land

My diocese is in the middle of setting up a re-evangelisation framework of lay and clergy people across the diocese, and God willing by working together (and focused on God) we may be able to impact positively on the souls of the faithful and others. We cannot undo history, time travel and retrospectively teach the faith or right wrongs, but we can (and are) working to do what we can to grow in a positive way in accordance with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I just pray that God will help us (just as he helped the apostles and other unlikely saints) to fan the flames of an ever increasing hunger and thirst for Him.

If we want Europe or anywhere to be re-evangelised, then I reckon we better started getting our most powerful weapon charged up and firing. So if you will excuse me, I am going to use the powerful weapon of prayer.

 

[Modern_Revert]

Viewer:

Your posts were painful to read…and I read them several times to maximize the mortification. No doubt the Church governance failed spectacularly in Ireland, and elsewhere, but that’s not the only reason Europe is post-Christian. Communism, Hitler and two World Wars on native soil no doubt have contributed to the secular/atheistic attitude of the population. And let’s face it: the new God is technology, not just for Europe but in all nations.