Re Jehovah's Witnesses: Peter in Babylon?

[Semper_Fi_1]

Fr Ambrose:

Yours first please, from the 5th century.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicar_of_Christ

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicar_of_Christ

They really ought to vet the amateurs who contribute to Wikipedia ot at least correct the errors in their articles.

The Catholic Encyclopedia is clear that Pope Gelasius I referred to himself as Vicar of Saint Peter and Vicar of the Apostolice See but NOT as the Vicar of Christ…

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Fr Ambrose:

They really ought to vet the amateurs who contribute to Wikipedia ot at least correct the errors in their articles.

The Catholic Encyclopedia is clear that Pope Gelasius I referred to himself as Vicar of Saint Peter and Vicar of the Apostolice See but NOT as the Vicar of Christ…

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0311ltrs.asp

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Father, still waiting for the citations of the other patriarchs who have used the title before the schism. Vicar of the Apostolic See is an interesting one… still implies that Rome is the only Apostolic See. I would be interested in which encyclical this appeared in so I could see the context of the phrase being used.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Semper Fi:

Father, still waiting for the citations of the other patriarchs who have used the title before the schism.

The honours belong to you first of all since you made the initial assertion about 5th century Western citations and did not provide references.

Vicar of the Apostolic See is an interesting one… still implies that Rome is the only Apostolic See./QUOTE]

Not at all. There are many Apostolic Sees in the Eastern segment of the Church. The West is unfortunate and has only one.

Actually that isn’t quite true. The West has another Apostolic See in Compostela but this is not mentioned very much by Rome these days. Developing amgid’s thought -when you have a vested interested in being the only Apostolic See around in the West you aren’t going to promote any others.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Fr Ambrose:

Semper Fi:

Father, still waiting for the citations of the other patriarchs who have used the title before the schism. Vicar of the Apostolic See is an interesting one… still implies that Rome is the only Apostolic See./QUOTE]Not at all. There are many Apostolic Sees in the Eastern segment of the Church. The West is unfortunate and has only one.

Actually that isn’t quite true. The West has another Apostolic See in Compostela but this is not mentioned very much by Rome these days. Developing amgid’s thought -when you have a vested interested in being the only Apostolic See around in the West you aren’t going to promote any others.

uh huh… citations!

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

You wrote, in message # 16
Semper Fi:

historical Christianity has been in union with the Pope even when he started calling himself the Vicar of Christ in the 5th century.

Did you just make that up or did you have some references before you?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Fr Ambrose:

You wrote, in message # 16

Did you just make that up or did you have some references before you?

Yes, I wrote that, and you wrote that “Vicar of Christ” was a title used by all patriarchs. I asked for references of the title being used by any patriarch besides the Roman Bishop before the schism of 1054. Did you just make that up?
Fr Ambrose:

Actually that isn’t quite true. The West has another Apostolic See in Compostela but this is not mentioned very much by Rome these days. Developing amgid’s thought -when you have a vested interested in being the only Apostolic See around in the West you aren’t going to promote any others.

Where’s your evidence for this?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0311ltrs.asp

Very charitable of you to prove my point.

Your reference confirms exactly what I said:

1. The 5th century Pope Gelasius did NOT call himself Vicar of Christ. He called himself Vicar of Saint Peter and Vicar of the Apostolic See.
2. Pope Innocent III in the 13th century began to use the title Vicar of Christ.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Semper Fi:

Yes, I wrote that, and you wrote that “Vicar of Christ” was a title used by all patriarchs.

No, you must be skim reading and not taking it in.

I said that ALL bishops considered themselves vicars of Christ -and still do in the East.

“Ubi episcopus, ibi Christus” - Saint Ignatius, died 98 AD.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Fr Ambrose:

Very charitable of you to prove my point.

Your reference confirms exactly what I said:

1. The 5th century Pope Gelasius did NOT call himself Vicar of Christ. He called himself Vicar of Saint Peter and Vicar of the Apostolic See.
2. Pope Innocent III in the 13th century began to use the title Vicar of Christ.

And why is it that you never answer any of my questions? When did any of the patriarchs of the East use the title Vicar of Christ? EVER? It was you who said they did, not me…

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I would also settle for an eastern patriarch calling himself the Vicar of the Apostolic See.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Semper Fi:

When did any of the patriarchs of the East use the title Vicar of Christ? EVER? It was you who said they did, not me…

You mean bishops really and not Patriarchs.

Pope John Paul II - in his book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope”:

"The Pope is not the only one who holds this title. With regard to the Church entrusted to him, each bishop is Vicarius Christi."

That is totally Orthodox!

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Fr Ambrose:

You mean bishops really and not Patriarchs.

Pope John Paul II - in his book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope”:

"The Pope is not the only one who holds this title. With regard to the Church entrusted to him, each bishop is Vicarius Christi."

That is totally Orthodox!

And you’re scapegoating here, I asked for references of the title being used before the schism of 1054. No mentions. Guess it doesn’t exist.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Semper Fi:

And you’re scapegoating here, I asked for references of the title being used before the schism of 1054. No mentions. Guess it doesn’t exist.

Well, you’ve changed your mind!! Only one hour ago you said you had references to show it existed in the 5th century !!!

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Fr Ambrose:

Well, you’ve changed your mind!! Only one hour ago you said you had references to show it existed in the 5th century !!!

Wikipedia had the references, I was off by “Apostolic See”. Then you claimed that there were references for other bishops calling themselves Vicar of Christ. I then said that I would settle for another bishop or patriarch calling himself the Vicar of Christ or Vicar of the Apostolic See. No mentions, because, I guess you don’t have any. Did you make that up, Father?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Semper Fi:

Wikipedia had the references, I was off by “Apostolic See”. Then you claimed that there were references for other bishops calling themselves Vicar of Christ. I then said that I would settle for another bishop or patriarch calling himself the Vicar of Christ or Vicar of the Apostolic See. No mentions, because, I guess you don’t have any. Did you make that up, Father?

You haven’t got any references from the 5th century, I suspect. See your message # 16.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Fr Ambrose:

You haven’t got any references from the 5th century, I suspect. See your message # 16.

I conceded that it probably was Vicar of the Apostolic See. Then you mentioned you had references of bishops & patriarchs calling themselves the Vicar of Christ. I then said I would settle for any bishop or patriarch calling themself either. Did you make that up?

Now, just admit it for once, you were wrong.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Semper Fi:

Wikipedia had the references

And we both know it is hopelessly erroneous. Somebody ought to contact whoever wrote that little piece of silliness.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Semper Fi:

I conceded that it probably was Vicar of the Apostolic See. Then you mentioned you had references of bishops & patriarchs calling themselves the Vicar of Christ. I then said I would settle for any bishop or patriarch calling themself either. Did you make that up?

Now, just admit it for once, you were wrong.

I gave you the earliest reference I know from any Church Father, Saint Ignatius of Antioch, martyred in 98 AD.

Ubi episcopus, ibi Christus.