RE: Luke 11: 27-28

[Dokimas]

Not chosen-created. To assert that she was “chosen” of mere happenstance begs the question and ignores God’s providence.

If God chooses He is exercising His providence, so His providence is NOT ignored.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

If God chooses He is exercising His providence, so His providence is NOT ignored.

No, by saying that He merely “chose” her is to imply that God is bound to the limitations of time as if God had to wait for her to be born before He could execute His plan through her cooperation.

To imply that God is bound by such limitations is to imply that in God there is something that He cannot do. To say that God cannot do something implies NONBEING. Therefore according to you God is not God.

Genesis 3 shows that Mary was already considered in God’s plan prior to her birth which proves something beyond merely God just happening to choose an anonymous poor girl from Nazareth to bear His Son into the world.

 

[Jimmy_B]

"blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it."
(Luke 11:28)

Well, that would be Mary then, because she did “hear the word of God” and she “kept it”.

Mary the Mother of God and the perfect disciple of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible is any fault found in St. Mary, as a follower of Christ.

 

[elvisman]

I’d agree and add that He was saying, while she was special, no more special than anyone that obeys His Word. Mary surely was chosen for a **VERY SPECIAL **purpose.

God is eternal, so he has seen every person that ever existed and ever will exist. He has seen what choices they’ve mad and what their final destiny was.

As Christians, we believe that God chose Mary from ALL of the women in history to give birth to the 2nd Person in the Holy Trinity, Jesus.

Since it is usually difficult to glean a straight answer from you - I issue this question to ALL NON-CATHOLICS who reject Marian doctrines:

**If Jesus chose Mary from ALL of the women in history to be his mother - would you then deduce that he chose her because no other woman in history was worthy to be his mother?
OR was it just a random choice.

 

[Rightlydivide]

God is eternal, so he has seen every person that ever existed and ever will exist. He has seen what choices they’ve mad and what their final destiny was.

As Christians, we believe that God chose Mary from ALL of the women in history to give birth to the 2nd Person in the Holy Trinity, Jesus.

Since it is usually difficult to glean a straight answer from you - I issue this question to ALL NON-CATHOLICS who reject Marian doctrines:

If Jesus chose Mary from ALL of the women in history to be his mother - would you then deduce that he chose her because no *other *woman in history was worthy to be his mother?
OR was it just a random choice.

You could deduce that but it is conjecture. The disciples were also chosen (John 15) but I cannot say they were the most worthy. They served His purpose not the other way around.
However, if the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is true, then its rather a stacked deck. A person without sin could not really help but be a stand up person, could they?
So yeah, he choose the one person who did have sin because He made them that way.
That would once again be because of what He did. They are worthy because He made them that way. Not that anything is wrong with that but it helps with proper perspective.
No, I do not think it was random obviously.

 

[Dokimas]

No, by saying that He merely “chose” her is to imply that God is bound to the limitations of time as if God had to wait for her to be born before He could execute His plan through her cooperation.

To imply that God is bound by such limitations is to imply that in God there is something that He cannot do. To say that God cannot do something implies NONBEING. Therefore according to you God is not God.

Genesis 3 shows that Mary was already considered in God’s plan prior to her birth which proves something beyond merely God just happening to choose an anonymous poor girl from Nazareth to bear His Son into the world.

Thanks for your opinion. I disagree.

 

[Dokimas]

If Jesus chose Mary from ALL of the women in history to be his mother - would you then deduce that he chose her because no *other *woman in history was worthy to be his mother?

No. That wasn’t hard. There could only be one. Someone had to be chosen. Mary got chosen.

OR was it just a random

No, not random. That wasn’t hard.

 

[elvisman]

You could deduce that but it is conjecture. The disciples were also chosen (John 15) but I cannot say they were the most worthy. They served His purpose not the other way around.

This point is moot because although the Apostles chosen - Jesus didn’t get his very humanity from them. They didn’t carry God in their womb for 9 months and raise him to advance in age and wisdom and favor before God and man (Luke 2:52).

However, if the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is true, then its rather a stacked deck. A person without sin could not really help but be a stand up person, could they?
So yeah, he choose the one person who did have sin because He made them that way.

He chose a person he saved from sin to sinless. Just as the Ark of the covenant in the OT had to be pure, blessed and undefiled to carry mere symbols of God within it - Mary was all the* more* blessed, pure and undefiled to actually carry GOD within her.**

A rudimentary comparison of OT types and their NT fulfillments illustrates that the fulfillment is ALWAYS more glorious than the type.
ALWAYS.

That would once again be because of what He did. They are worthy because He made them that way. Not that anything is wrong with that but it helps with proper perspective.
No, I do not think it was random obviously.

**The Church has ALWAYS taught that Mary was saved by God and that her sinlessness was not of her own doing so I’m not sure what you’re implying. **

The ancient example used by the Church is that as we are saved out of the mud puddle of sin by the finished work of Christ - Mary was saved by the finished work of Christ before was able to fall in in.

Are you saying that we teach that she is sinless of her own doing?

 

[elvisman]

No. That wasn’t hard. There could only be one. Someone had to be chosen. Mary got chosen.

No, not random. That wasn’t hard.

God NEVER works in that random sort of way - even though you deem it not to be random.

**Why was your mother not chosen - or your wife or sister? Because, as wonderful as they may be - God didn’t save them from the mud of sin like he did Mary. **

Like I told Rightly Divide - Just as the Ark of the covenant in the OT had to be pure, blessed and undefiled to carry mere symbols of God within it - Mary was all the more blessed, pure and undefiled to actually carry GOD within her.

OT types and their NT fulfillments are ALWAYS more glorious than the type - without exception.**

Mary is no different.

 

[Dokimas]

God NEVER works in that random sort of way - even though you deem it not to be random.

Wow. We agree.

Why was your mother not chosen - or your wife or sister? Because, as wonderful as they may be - God didn’t save them from the mud of sin like he did Mary.

Silly question with NO practice purpose or meaning.

Like I told Rightly Divide - Just as the Ark of the covenant in the OT had to be pure, blessed and undefiled to carry mere symbols of God within it - Mary was all the* more* blessed, pure and undefiled to actually carry GOD within her.

I have found NO Bible reason to think Mary was the Ark. So much for agreement with you.

 

[elvisman]

I have found NO Bible reason to think Mary was the Ark. So much for agreement with you.

Then, allow me to enlighten you, friend:

**“Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?” (2 Sam. 6:9)
"Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me" (Luke 1:43)

---

When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
When Mary came into Elizabeth’s presence carrying the word of God, the baby leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb (Luke 2 38)

---

The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth’s house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

---

The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

**It is abundatly clear by these passages that the Ark was a prefigurement (or TYPE) of Mary. **Even a blind man can see this.

It takes a lot of spiritual pride for a person to reject something that is so blindingly obvious in Scriptre.

Consider also, Rev. 11:19. Here, sJohn is telling us what he sees in Heaven:
*Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm. *

In the VERY NEXT VERSE, he describes it (HER):
**A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. **
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

---

**Hope that helps . . .

 

[Rightlydivide]

**This point is moot **because although the Apostles chosen - Jesus didn’t get his very humanity from them. They didn’t carry God in their womb for 9 months and raise him to advance in age and wisdom and favor before God and man (Luke 2:52).

He chose a person he saved* from* sin to sinless. Just as the Ark of the covenant in the OT had to be pure, blessed and undefiled to carry mere symbols of God within it - Mary was all the* more* blessed, pure and undefiled to actually carry GOD within her.

A rudimentary comparison of OT types and their NT fulfillments illustrates that the fulfillment is ALWAYS more glorious than the type.
ALWAYS.

The Church has ALWAYS taught that Mary was saved by God and that her sinlessness was not of her own doing so I’m not sure what you’re implying.

The ancient example used by the Church is that as we are saved out of the mud puddle of sin by the finished work of Christ - Mary was saved by the finished work of Christ before was able to fall in in.

Are you saying that we teach that she is sinless of her own doing?

So I guess you agree with me? Thats good.

 

[Dokimas]

Then, allow me to enlighten you, friend:

**“Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?” (2 Sam. 6:9)
"Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me" (Luke 1:43)

---

When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
When Mary came into Elizabeth’s presence carrying the word of God, the baby leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb (Luke 2 38)

---

The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth’s house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

---

The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

It is abundatly clear by these passages that the Ark was a prefigurement (or TYPE) of Mary. Even a blind man can see this.

It takes a lot of spiritual pride for a person to reject something that is so blindingly obvious in Scriptre.

Consider also, Rev. 11:19. Here, sJohn is telling us what he sees in Heaven:
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

In the VERY NEXT VERSE, he describes it (HER):
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

---

**Hope that *helps ***. . .

Seen these many times and they still don’t say what you claim they say, IMO. You really have to read CC doctrine into those verses which is not a good way to understanding the Bible, IMO.

 

[Steven_John]

In regards to the blessing of the “womb that bore” Christ and “the paps that gave thee suck,” both of those were common expressions of that time period, and did not necessarily refer directly to the Virgin Mary. For example: “Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb…” (Deut 28:4), and Christ uses such an expression later in the gospel, referring to the future with: “For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’” (Luke 23:29). In any case, it was more of a glorification of who Christ was than who owned the womb itself.

In regards to the use of “yea rather” or “nay rather” in Christ’s response, let’s first look at some comparative translations of Luke 11:28:

He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” [NIV]

He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” [NLT]

But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” [ESV]

But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” [NASB]

Now let’s look at the original Greek:

αὐτὸς δὲ εἶπεν μενοῦν μακάριοι οἱ ἀκούοντες τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ φυλάσσοντες.

The Greek word μενοῦν means “on the contrary,” as the NASB translates. In other words, Christ is not affirming what the woman said before, but rather portraying another idea entirely. He is not confirming what she said, but rather what He was about to say, which was: “blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

Good post bless you

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I don’t recall the point of the thread being what the Virgin Mary was, but is she really found in these passages (the ones from the OP), or do these passages give validation to grand greater respect to her.

 

[elvisman]

Seen these many times and they still don’t say what you claim they say, IMO. You really have to read CC doctrine into those verses which is not a good way to understanding the Bible, IMO.

Okay - how about this OT type vs. the NT fulfillment:

**Ex. 12:1-10 **
Moses is rescued from Pharaoh’s edict to kill all baby boys born to Hebrew mothers.

Matt. 4:14
Jesus is rescued from Herod’s edict to kill all baby boys in the land of Judea.

Do you believe that Moses was an OT type of Jesus based on these passages?
If so - WHY.
If not - WHY not?

 

[elvisman]

So I guess you agree with me? Thats good.

COOL!

So you agree that:
***1. Your point is ******moot because although the Apostles chosen - Jesus didn’t get his very humanity from them. They didn’t carry God in their womb for 9 months and raise him to advance in age and wisdom and favor before God and man (Luke 2:52).

2. He chose a person he saved**** from****** sin to be sinless (Mary*). **

---

3. Just as the Ark of the covenant in the OT had to be pure, blessed and undefiled to carry mere symbols of God within it - Mary was all the*** more****** blessed, pure and undefiled to****** actually****** carry GOD* within her.***

4. OT types and their NT fulfillments are ALWAYS* more glorious than the type.
ALWAYS (in this case, the Ark/Mary).

---

Awesome!

 

[Rightlydivide]

COOL!

So you agree that:
***1. Your point is **moot because although the Apostles chosen - Jesus didn’t get his very humanity from them. They didn’t carry God in their womb for 9 months and raise him to advance in age and wisdom and favor before God and man (Luke 2:52).

2. He chose a person he saved**** from****** sin to be sinless (Mary***).

---

3. Just as the Ark of the covenant in the OT had to be pure, blessed and undefiled to carry mere symbols of God within it - Mary was all the*** more****** blessed, pure and undefiled to****** actually****** carry GOD*** within her.*

4. OT types and their NT fulfillments are ALWAYS* more glorious than the type.
ALWAYS (in this case, the Ark/Mary).

---

Awesome!

LOL
Knock yourself out.
The more I read, the more I know my fellow fundamentalists probably had it pegged right and I was wrong. I see it more every day.

 

[elvisman]

LOL
Knock yourself out.
The more I read, the more I know my fellow fundamentalists probably had it pegged right and I was wrong. I see it more every day.

Huh??
Don’t really understand what you mean or what your “LOL-ing” about.
Something a little less cryptic would help.

So . . . what do you disagree with.
Not very easy to have a discussion with somebody who can’t make up their mind . . .