Eden,
Nah, he can say it, I can say I don’t like it or agree with it. Fair?
Why did you assume that only white Americans have no accent in your example? I think it’s a great leap to go from the OP’s discomfort with the thought of being in a Muslim home to concluding that he is a white supremacist. How do you even know the OP is even white? You’re making the assumption that someone who admitted to feeling uncomfortable in the home of a Muslim is racist. While I would not feel the way the original poster felt about going to a party, you better believe I feel uncomfortable getting on a plane with someone who fits the typical description of a terrorist. How is that racist? I think it’s prudent.
I never said he was a white supremacist or a racist. Nor did I say white Americans are the only people without accents. I do not know from where tskal’s ancestors came, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the Middle East or west Asia. I made an assumption and if it was faulty I apologize for that much – but it does not invalidate my examples.
You certainly suggested it.
Your examples invalidate themselves.
Now you are getting silly. Comparing a cult that attacked Japanese subway passengers several years ago to the jihad declared on the West and specifically America by Al-Qaida makes no sense at all.
So, not only do you want to restrict freedom of speech but also the freedom of an individual to feel fear?
No, you are condemning his discomfort, which is not your place to condemn. Pump your brakes. He is entitled to *feel *any way he wants. If you recall, he still went to the party despite his trepidation. Are you going to tell me that because I am a woman, that if I were walking down a dark alley at midnight and felt fear when I saw a man approaching that I am sexist? Our fears come from our instinct to protect ourselves and our family from danger. Obviously, the OP felt he might be taking his family into an unsafe situation. I don’t know why you feel you have the right to judge his fear. Again, he still went to the party.
If you do not know what a typical terrorist would look like, I suggest you study the 9/11 report to find out who has declared jihad on the West. While your list of mentally ill men whose crimes are uncommon is an interesting walk down American criminal memory lane, they never made specific threats against airliners nor did they ever use them to kill Americans. I specifically was discussing my discomfort at airports, which is a completely reasonable response given the great tragedy which occurred using American airliners and which is the reason for heightened security there today. The security is not heightened at my airport because Ted Kaczynski sent mail bombs.
Not that I can see. I compared his attitude towards Muslims to that of racists towards people of other ethnic groups, nothing more. Comparison does not make equivalence!
Since you’ve been so kind as to point that out, mind showing me how?
Aum Shinrikyo is a religious group and a terrorist organization. It’s not a perfect match, but then what would be?
Did you not see where I said he’s free to express it and I’m free to express my dissent? And where I said I realize the fear may have been the fault of the constant bombardment of a culture now directed to fear instead of his own personal motives? He asked if it was out of line. I answered.
A birthday party held for a child your child knows, at the family’s house, is nowhere near the same situation as a woman alone in an alley at night. Talk about stretching analogies? His fear was unjustifiable, and it’s good that he got over it – but what will he do if a similar situation presents itself with an actual Muslim family? Promote the fear that encourages separatism and violence? Or let the kids have fun?
Actually airport and mail security were tightened considerably thanks to the Unabomber, and they’ve stayed that way. And did you even see where I noted that the actual attackers on 9/11 shaved their beards and wore American-style clothing expressly to blend in? The guys with beards and robes aren’t necessarily the people you should be worrying about, they’re just dressed formally.
If comparison does not make equivalence, then why use the attitude of racists toward people of other ethnic groups as examples? It doesn’t make sense to use examples to illustrate your point if you don’t believe those examples are equivalent to the mind crime committed by the OP. What are these examples meant to be? Examples of what the OP would be like if he actually were a racist? To illustrate that the OP is not as racist as he could be? I don’t understand.
You’ve already admitted that your examples were not meant as equivalents to the OP’s comments. Since they are not valid comparisons, they are invalidated.
It’s not a terrorist organization. You are the one who used Aum Shinrikiyo as a comparison to Islamic terrorism. Also, it would be less accurate to call Aum Shinrikiyo a “religious group”, as it is not recognized by the government of Japan as a “legal religous identity”. It’s a “cult”.
Why are you trying to find a match to Al-Qaida elsewhere? I don’t remember asking for one.
Your dissent about what? You did more than disagree with his fear of being in a possibly Muslim home. You condemned him as a bigot.
And your reaction to what, in some cases is a legitmate fear, may be the fault of the constant bombardment of a culture now directed to be politically correct instead of discerning.
I used this example to illustrate how much easier it is to paint someone as a bigot or a sexist, than it is to consider the individual circumstances involved. So what if he feared for his family’s safety? How does that necessarily translate to bigot? You sure were quick to accuse instead of working through the reasons he may have felt that way.
I don’t believe the OP ever had any intentions of promoting violence against Muslims.
No, I don’t think airport security was tightened as a result of Ted Kaczynski. The security measures since 9/11 were certainly not in place before 9/11 nor were they the result of Ted Kaczynski’s packages. Check your airline ticket. There is a 9/11 tax on there for security, not a Ted Kaczynski tax. Yes, that’s what’s it’s called, the 9/11 tax on your air fare. The post office tightened security after TK, for instance, requiring that packages be brought inside rather than allowing them to be dropped anonymously into mail boxes. But if you are asserting that the current security measure, including the most recent “no liquids in carry-ons” are a result of anything other than Islamic terrorism, you are flat-out wrong.
Where did I say anything about robes?
Aum Shinrikyo is not a religious group, it is not a terrorist organization and it doesn’t even exist anymore.
And I use charity and kindness and patience to explain mine – please tell me where I haven’t? And tell me why she doesn’t ‘need’ to do the same, simply because she believes in God? She does not speak for him.
I’ve never claimed that I do not respect Jesus of Nazareth as an intelligent, charismatic, and genuinely good moral philosopher. I agree with practically all of what he taught in moral philosophy; I simply do not believe he was the son of God.
Am I harming anyone? I am considering my tone, and I find it reasonable and polite; I only disagree, and make points to back myself up, as anyone should expect. Am I automatically wrong for having a different point of view? Let her consider her tone, and I respectfully suggest you consider yours.
Comparisons like that provide some context to a discussion of two similar types of bigotry. They are not equivalent, they are similar – just like how you can have congruent and similar objects in geometry. Similar objects share most of their properties.
Analogy is a wonderful tool when it is understood. I stand by my examples, and ask you to show me how they are not similar cases. Note I said similar, please – were they exact, they’d be merely carbon-copies with the same faces and names as the original, and completely useless for the sake of debate.
The United States, Canada, and the European Union all classify Aum Shinrikyo as a terrorist group. A cult is by definition a religious group. Whether it still exists, still is religious, or still is terrorist is irrelevant to my example – just imagine it took place in 1995.
You accused me of not providing accurate enough analogies for your taste.
I’ve nowhere condemned him, merely the belief I see evident in his words. I’ve backed up the condemnation of that belief, too – which is more than you’ve done to defend his words. Start, please?
When is fear legitimate? Caution is, prudence is, but fear?
What reasons? Does anyone seriously think that, first, a child of Al-Qaeda parents old enough to be in martial arts wouldn’t be in gun-training camp already, and second, that normal suburban parents of any religion or ethnicity or accent would blow up their own child’s birthday party? If so, I’m really, truly sorry. The ‘circumstances’ are frankly ridiculous.
I never said he did.
When you talk about what a ‘typical terrorist’ looks like and how ‘typical terrorists’ are Islamic extremists… well… traditional Islamic formal dress happens to be robes. What do the FBI guidelines say? Got a link?
Definition of a bigot:
I don’t agree that your examples are even similar. Large groups of Islamic extremists intent on carrying out mass murder through organized sleeper cells sent to Europe and the United States who live among us waiting for the call to carry out their terrorist attacks and a mentally ill mathematics genius living in the wilderness who sent some mail bombs out before being turned in by his brother are similar how?
Aum Shinrikyo is identified as a terrorist group by the U.S., Canada and the European Union? Wow. That doesn’t give me much confidence in our abilities to fight terror. You’d think these governments would realize Aum Shinrikyo doesn’t even exist anymore. Someone needs to update their records.
I still don’t understand why you need to use analogies when responding to the original post. I mean, they are really not supporting your point.
You don’t think accusing someone of bigotry is a condemnation?
The OP has heard the messages from groups like Al-Qaida and other Islamic extremists who have made it clear that they intend to continue to plan and carry out terrorist attacks on the West. The OP has seen attacks in NY, London, Madrid, a foiled plot out of London only months ago, the shoebomber and many attacks on Westerners in the Muslim world, including kidnappings and taped beheadings. As a result, the OP has concluded that there is a dangerous extremist ideology in our world which is connected to Islam. He also knows that a hotbed of Islamic extremism is Pakistan, especially with its Madrassas and its untamed northern region which borders Afghanistan (where bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri are likely hiding). He also knows that the men who attacked us on 9/11 lived among us and appeared from the outside to be living normal lives. So, he wondered if this family could have ties back home to terrorists.
Fear can be an important protection against danger. Clearly, fear is a reasonable reaction to being confronted by an angry bear in the wilderness. Are you now going to suggest that fear is a hate crime?
Clearly, the OP was not afraid of the child. Since it’s widely accepted that we have sleeper cells in the U.S., someone has to be living a double life. So, he admitted to having a thought, a doubt, a concern, a fear, what have you. Again, where is the crime being committed?
Well, if he wasn’t practicing hate speech or planning a hate crime, what is the crime?
What terrorists in the Western attacks wore robes? How about you research where the terrorists on 9/11 came from and Google their pictures, O.K.? Because I’m not interested in entertaining your faux confusion.
God Love you tskal!
