Re: Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth? 2

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1.) She is a truly devote Lutheran, Lutheran LCMS, and accepts the Bible-based teachings of Martin Luther that inspired the reformation of the Christian church in the 16th century, And of course Sola Gratias, Sola Fide, and Sola Scriptura. ( quoted from the ‘Belief and Practice’ as stated on the LCMS website) .
2.) The Catholic Church itself.

You asked me why I don’t try ( well, I DO try ) to get her to revert to the Catholic Church: fools rush in where angels fear to tread, and any attempt at discussion of religion, and particularly the Catholic Church, gets into one hot mess, and does not end well. It’s often best that I leave that subject well enough alone, believe me.
The best thing you can do is be the healthiest, happiest Catholic you can be. 👍

For God has called us to peace. 16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?
17 Only, let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him.1 Corinthians 7:15–17
 
Allow ? More like purposely "led’ them away, for, “He knew from the beginning who did not believe”.
So, you’re contention then is that He formed a consensus by “purposely [leading] them away”? You’re not doing your argument any good here.
From the beginning is from the beginning , before any dialogue of flesh eating. Did not believe what ? That following Him requires eating Him ?
Yes. That’s the clear implication of the text, in context.
No, from the beginning they did not believe in Him to be the Son of God, the Messiah.
Ahh, eisegesis.

This may or may not be true, but it is not the subject of the text.

However, none of this supports your argument vis-à-vis consensus.
 
The best thing you can do is be the healthiest, happiest Catholic you can be. 👍

For God has called us to peace. 16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?
17 Only, let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him.1 Corinthians 7:15–17
Happy wife; happy life .🙂
 
“and blessed are those who believe and have not seen”

So you are more blessed than anyone else in the first century?:eek:
The apostles are not here today, so like the thread question, who now speaks for them best ? Indeed we listen, for by it comes faith. The bible is and any church is formally insufficient to final “enlightenment”.

So what did Peter do in Acts to replace Judas? Does the Bible say that replacing the Apostles has ceased?

Are you also saying then that 1john4, v6, does not apply for use anymore since there are no more apostles? So the Bible is then not reliable as some words apply and some do not anymore?
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The Holy Spirit led St. Paul to obedience and humility and to submit his teachings to the Apostles, not for himself to decide the Truth:
Correct, for Saul had thought he had decided correctly, as he persecuted Christians. The submission was much deeper than say to the apostles and by the way , the Lord taught Paul for three years and Paul submitted himself to Christ’s teachings before every setting an eye on an apostles (3 years in Arabia, before Jerusalem). Paul humbly submitted to Christ first, just like the apostles, and really, like all of us.
Okay…just like St. Paul was led to submit to apostolic authority, following St. Paul, which apostolic authority do you submit to?
galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Why would it take a special revelation to “submit” to the apostles. is not that kind of a given ? It was a needed revelation, which some did not submit to until the first council in Jerusalem. Paul was preaching to the gentiles, and not converting them to judaism (no circumcision). The two had to be reconcilable, or else Paul preached in vain, and Paul’s gentile converts were not saved after all, until Judaized.

Benhur, did you understand the passage? Paul went in response to a revelation. The HS determined that St. Paul go to Jerusalem and submit himself and his gospel…it is setting the example for all of us.

And it is very much in harmony with 1John 4… 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

It is not me and my Bible alone determines the truth, it goes against the very grain of SS.
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Even you have a magisterium, you just do not call it a magisterium. In the protestant world, they call him the pastor, group of elders, or it is the individual, or whatever form it takes.
Right, the word is not magisterium (not free to say that in trying not to be catholic) but i thought many have "confessions’’ or even central authority /teachings.
And these confessions are what? Don’t these other protestant bodies consider their confessions authoritative? They are a form of magisterial authority…some would just not want to admit it.
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How can we show the world about Christ, when we are not One?
By our love for one another . This would eliminate some parochialism and minimize differences. It was the good samaritan that exhibited some of this.
 
You are not making any sense, Ben. You asked an epistomological question - how did Peter know the Truth?This answer is a non sequitor. How do we know the truth today? Are you basically saying you have not “seen” but you still believe, so you are blessed? How does that get to the answer of how we know what is Truth?
Yes and it was answered, “The Messiah called them, and proved it by His miracles, and the Apostles believed.” I replied, “and blessed are those who believe and have not seen” (john 20). So do you feel Pablope answered it ? Miracles ? We are all called so it can’t just be that . And I am not sure we come because of miracles, like the unbelieving disciple that departed in John 6. If he didn’t answer well why not go after him for a better answer ? My reply fits perfectly in rebuttal , and you might agree, for you are still asking how Peter knew, even after reading Pablope’s answer.
 
You don’t believe the Scriptures can make you wise unto salvation?
We have some legalists here or strict, literal linguists and so I would say no formally but yes materially. To all others, yes, they are God-breathed.
 
You are right, Paul knew there had to be a unity. He knew that there had to be One Faith, for both Jew, and Gentile, and despite the fact that He received the Gospel from the Lord, and the other Apostles did not add anything to it for him, ,it was important for him to go to Jerusalem and lay it out for them all. But, it was not “consensus”. 😉
Well said. Said better than saying there was solidarity or general agreement (consensus).
 
So, you’re contention then is that He formed a consensus by “purposely [leading] them away”? You’re not doing your argument any good here.
You don’t reach a consensus with the unregenerated.
Yes. That’s the clear implication of the text, in context.
Ahh, eisegesis.
This may or may not be true, but it is not the subject of the text.
However, none of this supports your argument vis-à-vis consensus.
Where do you begin context , vs 37 or 42 or 54 ? Why not verse 1? When you limit the text then eisegesis is aided. I feel you miss the entire subject of the chapter.
Ps. I have no idea what those verses read (37,42,54 or 1-just picked out of the air)
 
So what did Peter do in Acts to replace Judas? Does the Bible say that replacing the Apostles has ceased?
Capital “A” yes, for they were the twelve (Paul replaced Judas in my opinion). Small “a” no, not ceased.
Are you also saying then that 1john4, v6, does not apply for use anymore since there are no more apostles? So the Bible is then not reliable as some words apply and some do not anymore?
No the sent ones are with us today, especially since folks must be hearing and getting saved for John also says everyone who believes He came in the flesh and is the Son of God, and has love in his heart, is of God.
Okay…just like St. Paul was led to submit to apostolic authority, following St. Paul, which apostolic authority do you submit to?
Benhur, did you understand the passage? Paul went in response to a revelation. The HS determined that St. Paul go to Jerusalem and submit himself and his gospel…it is setting the example for all of us.
Let’s see, what was that fancy word , eisegesis ? Forgive me but I will end on a good note that I reacheda consensus with a fellow threader here a few posts earlier, on this matter.
And these confessions are what? Don’t these other protestant bodies consider their confessions authoritative? They are a form of magisterial authority…some would just not want to admit it
Sorry, but i think we are in consensus on this matter.
 
Capital “A” yes, for they were the twelve (Paul replaced Judas in my opinion). Small “a” no, not ceased.

No the sent ones are with us today, especially since folks must be hearing and getting saved for John also says everyone who believes He came in the flesh and is the Son of God, and has love in his heart, is of God.
Let’s see, what was that fancy word , eisegesis ? Forgive me but I will end on a good note that I reacheda consensus with a fellow threader here a few posts earlier, on this matter.

Sorry, but i think we are in consensus on this matter.
Hi benhur: If you read Acts 1:15-26 you will find that Matthias was chosen to replace Judas, not Paul. You see according to Acts peter said that the one chosen to replace Judas had to be one who was of their company while the Lord was alive from the baptism of the Lord Jesus till the day he was taken up. and so be named as witness with them to Jesus’s resurrection. Paul therefore does not fit as an Apostle since he was not of those who were with Jesus when he was alive and witnessed Christ’s resurrection.
 
Hi benhur: If you read Acts 1:15-26 you will find that Matthias was chosen to replace Judas, not Paul. You see according to Acts peter said that the one chosen to replace Judas had to be one who was of their company while the Lord was alive from the baptism of the Lord Jesus till the day he was taken up. and so be named as witness with them to Jesus’s resurrection. Paul therefore does not fit as an Apostle since he was not of those who were with Jesus when he was alive and witnessed Christ’s resurrection.
Yes, thank you . So you think Mathias is one of the twelve mentioned in Revelations as our foundation ? The CC has no definitive answer. No consensus reached, yet. We are still free to believe either way. Cool.
 
Yes, thank you . So you think Mathias is one of the twelve mentioned in Revelations as our foundation ? The CC has no definitive answer. No consensus reached, yet. We are still free to believe either way. Cool.
Hi Benhur: All I know is that Matthias was chosen by the Apostles, So I would imagine that he would be one of the twelve since he was with Jesus all though Jesus’s ministry with the other Apostles. While Paul received a revelation from Christ, and converted to Christianity, he did not know Jesus personally nor did he travel with him as the twelve Apostles did or disciples during Jesus’ lifetime.
 
Hi benhur: If you read Acts 1:15-26 you will find that Matthias was chosen to replace Judas, not Paul. You see according to Acts peter said that the one chosen to replace Judas had to be one who was of their company while the Lord was alive from the baptism of the Lord Jesus till the day he was taken up. and so be named as witness with them to Jesus’s resurrection. Paul therefore does not fit as an Apostle since he was not of those who were with Jesus when he was alive and witnessed Christ’s resurrection.
Just to clarify, Paul was indeed an apostle.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )
 
Just to clarify, Paul was indeed an apostle.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )
Yep. But notice that he had to qualify it. He was not considered one of the 12, but he was indeed a “sent-out one”, sent by Jesus.
👍
 
Hi Benhur: All I know is that Matthias was chosen by the Apostles, So I would imagine that he would be one of the twelve since he was with Jesus all though Jesus’s ministry with the other Apostles. While Paul received a revelation from Christ, and converted to Christianity, he did not know Jesus personally nor did he travel with him as the twelve Apostles did or disciples during Jesus’ lifetime.
Thank you, but who set up the qualifications ? Saul did not know Jesus personally but Paul certainly did. He was also “tutored” for three years by our Lord.
 
By our love for one another . This would eliminate some parochialism and minimize differences. It was the good samaritan that exhibited some of this.
Yes, they will know we are Christians by our love. But unity also reveals something important:

20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:20–22

Unity is how we will convince the world that Jesus came from the Father. The disunity that exists only fuels the lie that the faith lacks authenticity. It is the evil one’s way of fostering unbelief.
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You don't reach a consensus with the unregenerated.
Unfortunately, this is exactly what is happening with so many mainline congregations caving in to modernism.
Where do you begin context , vs 37 or 42 or 54 ? Why not verse 1? When you limit the text then eisegesis is aided. I feel you miss the entire subject of the chapter.
This is an excellent question. For Catholics, the context is the Church, because the NT was written by, for, and about the Church. This is why we read it through the lens of sacred tradition. It is best understood from the point of view of those who wrote it - their lived experience, which is Catholic. 😃

This is why, when we read John 6, we understand it literally, because that is what those who produced the text believe.
Capital “A” yes, for they were the twelve (Paul replaced Judas in my opinion).
So you believe that Peter missed the mark with his prayers, and made a mistake enrolling Matthias? Basically what you are saying is that Jesus did not keep his promise to guide the Church into “all truth”.

What I find odd is that the account of the selection of a replacement for Judas would be included in Scripture with no indication that it was a mistake, or a sin. Other passages that describe behavior against the will of the Spirit make it clear. Why is that missing?

There were many more than the 12 Apostles, and there were years between the death of Christ and the emergence of Paul.
No the sent ones are with us today, especially since folks must be hearing and getting saved for John also says everyone who believes He came in the flesh and is the Son of God, and has love in his heart, is of God.
Do you think that the first bishops were also in error, that they were meant to succeed the Apostles, and their authority?
Hi benhur: If you read Acts 1:15-26 you will find that Matthias was chosen to replace Judas, not Paul.
I think what he is saying is that Peter just did a dumb thing that was contrary to God’s will.
You see according to Acts peter said that the one chosen to replace Judas had to be one who was of their company while the Lord was alive from the baptism of the Lord Jesus till the day he was taken up. and so be named as witness with them to Jesus’s resurrection. Paul therefore does not fit as an Apostle since he was not of those who were with Jesus when he was alive and witnessed Christ’s resurrection.
I agree with your point, but Paul is clearly an Apostle, though he speaks of himself as one untimely born, he fits nonetheless. He could not qualify as one of the 12, a special group of Apostles.
Yes, thank you . So you think Mathias is one of the twelve mentioned in Revelations as our foundation ? The CC has no definitive answer. No consensus reached, yet. We are still free to believe either way. Cool.
No, Ben, this is false. The CC as well as all the Apostolic Churches (EO and OO) that were founded by Apostles receive Matthias as the replacement for Judas. This is part of the deposit of faith that we are not at liberty to change or dispute with a different “opinion”.

Yes, Matthias is one of the 12, and as such, will participate in the prophesies of Christ, as revealed in the book of Revelation.
Thank you, but who set up the qualifications ? Saul did not know Jesus personally but Paul certainly did. He was also “tutored” for three years by our Lord.
The qualifications were revealed to Peter by the Holy Spirit as he prayed about what to do. The Apostles all then prayed together, and trusted God to reveal who God had already chosen.

You are right, Paul did encounter the risen Christ, and was taught by Christ Himself through visions in Arabia. There is no doubt that Paul was “qualified” by Christ to be an Apostle. he was just not one of the 12. There were other Apostles also that were not of the 12.

2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles. 2 Peter 3:2–3

. 5 I think that I am not in the least inferior to these superlative apostles. 2 Corinthians 11:4–6

7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners; they are men of note among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.Romans 16:7–8

Acts 13 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly…14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out among the multitude, crying…Acts 14

And many more whose names are lost forever.
 
Ben,

You are using the “absence” of information from St.Irenaeus to support your position that the chair is not St. Peter’s (arguing from silence is not so strong).
Contrived way of justifying the Chair…Iraneus does not mention such a chair save that Peter and Paul are the foundation for the church at Rome.
Conversely, when St. Irenaeus speaks explicitly to the bread and wine being the actual body and blood of Christ, consistent with the apostolic teaching and John 6, evidently this has no weight in your faith. You do understand that St. Irenaeus was a firm believer in the Eucharist correct?

So you are picking and choosing based on your predisposed beliefs:

a) When St. Irenaeus is silent, you use it as evidence.
b) When St. Irenaeus is explicit, you simply ignore it?

On the Eucharist, rather then adhering to what the Church has taught for 2,000 years, what scripture says explicitly in John 6, what the Church Fathers overwhelming taught, including St. Irenaeus, you are following a man-made tradition five-hundred years old.

PnP
 
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