Re those on the top floors of the World Trade Center

[jujubee]

Several priests gave general absolution to the people there that day.

I think that is such a comforting image amidst one of great tragedy and sadness. Where did you find that out?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I think that is such a comforting image amidst one of great tragedy and sadness. Where did you find that out?

I heard that as well, one of the firefighters was on tv remembering Father Judge. He asked Father for a blessing, and Father replied that he had granted absolution to everyone.

May he rest in peace.

 

[havana1]

Which only underlines once again, the extreme bravery, commitment, love of neighbor, and sense of duty of all of those who voluntarily went into the buildings to save others. May God bless all who did this and survived. May He bless the families of those who died. May He grant eternal rest to those who gave their lives in this noble endeavor (including those who have died since due to health issues from that day) and never let their goodness be forgotten while the USA remains a country.

Bravery and commitment and love of neighbor that demands action from Congress. I am glad to see that the Zagroda bill is headed back to Congress, this time (I would hope) with approval:
ibtimes.com/articles/61428/20100911/wtc.htm

 

[MarianD]

Once I took a course at a local church, and someone asked the priest if commiting suicide was still considered a sin. His response was that when someone commits suicide, they are not in the right state of mind, and thus they are not sinning.

As for the people who jumped from the World Trade Center, I cannot believe that they were in the right state of mind. The heat from the fires caused by the planes crashing into the building were high enough to cause the steel foundations within the building to melt, thus causing the buildings to come down. If they were hot enough to cause the steel foundations to melt, then the heat cause by the fire must have been so horrific that staying in the building was humanely unbearable.

I agree with this.

Also, one of the three criteria for a mortal sin is it has to be made with full intent. I’m sure those people didn’t want to die, but they had no choice. Fall with an instant death or die slowly. Not much of a choice, and definitely no full intent there.

May God have mercy on their souls, and may Justice be swiftly dealt to all responsible…in this life and in the next.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I think that is such a comforting image amidst one of great tragedy and sadness. Where did you find that out?

As you know, in the aftermath of 9/11, there were thousands of interviews with people who were witnesses or participants or just interviews to get peoples’ reactions at the time.

Some of the interviews were with Catholic priests.

I distinctly remember two of them. One was an elderly priest who was driving on the BQE, an elevated highway in Brooklyn/Queens. Traffic had stopped. And when he saw what was going on in lower NY at the WTC, he got on his knees and gave general absolution to everyone.

Another priest who was interviewed was the pastor of the church across the street from the WTC. When he heard the commotion outside, he ran out and saw the mess and immediately gave general absolution to everyone.

There also were interviews with groups of priests who were sent there from further uptown to render whatever assistance they could. They didn’t discuss whether or not they had given general absolution.

And last night I was watching one of the 9/11 programs and they showed film clips of ambulance crews treating injured people and among them were priests who were clearly administering Extreme Unction to the injured.

 

[PatriceA]

The police actually DID land on the WTC roof in 1993. And they were there and prepared to land in 2001.

In NYC, the police department has helicopters and uses them routinely for rescue work. For some undetermined reason, the NYC fire department refuses to use helicopters. A helicopter had been budgeted by the NYC fire commissioner, but was apparently cancelled.

In other cities, helicopters are routinely used for roof top rescues. There have been cases where roof top rescues have been put together on an ad hoc basis; any helicopter in the area responded and they organized themselves and conducted the rescues spontaneously. Happens routinely. Except in NYC.

Why?

You can deny access to the roof without using a bank vault door with double locks. And still make it available in case of emergency.

Just one example: the top floor of the WTC was manned 24/7 because the offices there were for the tech support of the tenants that transmitted via the roof antennas. They could have been given a key to the roof.

Rescue of people from high rise buildings is not a sudden new topic. Been discussed for decades. Other cities take action. Except NYC.

Google: " fire rescue high rise helicopter "

There was a special on the History Channel where Guilioni discussed why they didn’t use helicopters to rescue those on the top floors. It was nixed by the fire department and others in charge of the rescues due to the nature of the fires that were still active on the top of the buildings. It was too dangerous for the helicopters to get that close, the potential for the copters to ignite and further endanger any resuce efforts were the reasons given.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

There was a special on the History Channel where Guilioni discussed why they didn’t use helicopters to rescue those on the top floors. It was nixed by the fire department and others in charge of the rescues due to the nature of the fires that were still active on the top of the buildings. It was too dangerous for the helicopters to get that close, the potential for the copters to ignite and further endanger any resuce efforts were the reasons given.

The police department may have not agreed. The police helicopter people who were closest to the scene were willing to do it. Giuliani had his own problems at the time because he was in his command post at 7WTC which had been struck by debris. To this day, the NYC fire department still will have nothing to do with helicopters. Most, if not all, helicopter pilots and rescue people would also disagree. These kinds of rescues are conducted routinely. It’s what they do. Helicopter rescue people are aware of their capabilities. There was a narrow window for action before the buildup of smoke and flames. There may even be some video out there taken from police helicopters hovering right at the roof of One WTC.

Read the actual stories of high rise helicopter rescues. You and I might not think they are possible, but they occur.

Hotel fire in Las Vegas. Cruise ship fire off the Alaska coast. Fires in other countries where they recognize helicopter capabilities better than some of our politicians, perhaps.

Read the accounts.

 

[PatriceA]

The police department may have not agreed. To this day, the NYC fire department still will have nothing to do with helicopters. Most, if not all, helicopter pilots and rescue people would also disagree. These kinds of rescues are conducted routinely. It’s what they do.

How many routine rescues though have a fire made by a plane crashing into a one of the tallest buildings in the world? With the fire in the building fueled by all those fuel tanks on the planes?

I’m not for or against their decision, just reporting on what Guilioni was saying the reasons behind that decision. But I can understand their concerns.

 

[turtle18]

Its already been mentioned on here but mortal sin has to be done with deliberate and complete consent. I think the circumstances removed the deliberate and complete consent. I hope and pray the people who jumped passed out on the way down. I have never for a single second thought it could be a sin for them to jump until I saw your post tonight. I mean contrast it to the people (terrorists) who actually killed themselves that day by hijacking a plane and carrying out a suicide mission in order to kill people. These people planned it for an entire year, had trial runs and so forth. Now, if that doesn’t fit the definition of deliberate and complete consent, I don’t know what does.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

How many routine rescues though have a fire made by a plane crashing into a one of the tallest buildings in the world? With the fire in the building fueled by all those fuel tanks on the planes?

I’m not for or against their decision, just reporting on what Guilioni was saying the reasons behind that decision. But I can understand their concerns.

The infighting between the NYC fire and police departments is brutal.

 

[Seatuck]

The response to 9/11 was Catholic Americans in action. In NYC, the police, fire department, and emergency services are mostly Catholic. They walked into the fire and climbed dozens of stories. to save people. And died in their hundreds. There are some links some to the catholic culture of the police and firemen in NYC. Will link when I can.

Not sure what this has to do with the thread but I’ll add my two cents. Yes the above is possibly true. We had waiting lists for funerals and memorial masses at many of the Catholic Churches here . Many of the civillians who died were also Catholics. It may very well be that the majority of folks who died were Catholic.

 

[Canuckistani]

Get real - this post insults those victims who preferred one certain death where at least their bodies would be recovered.

It is not suicide just a Hobson’s choice.

 

[LilyM]

I’ve also read that a number of the people who ‘jumped’ would actually, instead, have simply been so blinded by the smoke that they :bighanky: literally couldn’t see where they were going and fell by accident …

 

[Zooey]

Originally Posted by Monte RCMS forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

Several priests gave general absolution to the people there that day.

I think that is such a comforting image amidst one of great tragedy and sadness. Where did you find that out?

I remember hearing about one priest in particular, whose immediate reaction was that he ran into the towers, while they were afire (& collapsing), specifiaclly for this reason, & all I could think was, now that was amazing…It made me :crying::crying:…
I mean, who does that? Only a truly loving & caring person who truly loves Our Lord:

[bibledrb]Matthew 25:31-40[/bibledrb]

 

[AHapka]

Get real - this post insults those victims who preferred one certain death where at least their bodies would be recovered.

It is not suicide just a Hobson’s choice.

Or the person could have been asking a legitimate question? Perhaps it’s a child posting? Perhaps it’s someone with a low IQ? Perhaps it’s someone WITH AN HONEST QUESTION.

I really don’t see how it was meant to be “insulting.”

 

[Vince1022]

pots… kettles…

Just because you feel sure of the answer to a question, doesn’t mean someone has to have something wrong with them because they ask the question.

–Jen

So you think it was suicide?

 

[Vince1022]

I
Either was, it was not suicide in what we normally think of it…someone has plenty of time and perhaps plenty of other options yet decides to take their own life.

I agree it was not suicide. I still wonder why someone would even ask such a question

 

[Vince1022]

(sigh) You can’t tell from my original post that I am genuinely wondering this? It is the moral theology forum and I am asking for insight on Catholic Church teaching on a moral question.

I had been watching this on the news yesterday and was putting myself in their position, wondering what I would have done myself. If I am ever facing those last minutes of my life the thing I want to do most is make a choice that is in line with the Church that I love, no matter what.

My gut feeling is that even though jumping has the consequence of dying, that the intent of the action is not to die but to escape another harm. To me the rationale is similar to the question of whether a woman with ovarian cancer can have her ovaries removed and not be guilty of going against church teaching regarding birth control and the like. The intention is to remove the illness with an unintended consequence of infertility. Does that make sense? Am I looking at that correctly?

Of course their intent was not to die.

Whether they jumped or stayed, the would likely die.

I am still baffled at how you can even ask this question, i.e. whether anyone affected by this crime, this act of violence, totally unexpected and totally wrong, could be thought of as committing suicide.

 

[ForAll]

I am still baffled at how you can even ask this question, i.e. whether anyone affected by this crime, this act of violence, totally unexpected and totally wrong, could be thought of as committing suicide.

Hey Vince, if you don’t think it’s a valid question, stop posting non-answers. People are allowed to ask questions like this–what seems clear to you (that it’s not suicide) is not clear to others.

I wondered this myself. In fact, in the documentary “The Falling Man,” the family of Norberto Hernandez was incredibly upset by the idea that he could have been the one from the famous picture of the man jumping from one of the towers. They are Catholic and were upset because they felt if it was him, if he did jump, that he would be damned, because of Catholic moral teaching on suicide. It make me think about some questions: Does make a difference what a person thought when they jumped? Does it matter when they jumped, or from what floor?

I ultimately came to the conclusion, like many on here have said, that the state of mind of those who jumped could not be considered rational enough for their acts to be considered suicide. That they were trying to live, in some way; reaching out to the only hope, however slight, they had.

But it’s still okay that I asked these questions.

 

[revert_jen]

revert_jen;7053982:

pots… kettles…

Just because you feel sure of the answer to a question, doesn’t mean someone has to have something wrong with them because they ask the question.

–Jen

So you think it was suicide?

No, it means I think it is insensitive to respond to a person in the way you responded. It means that there is enough of a possibility that you are not omnicient that it is not only rude, but also a bit arrogant, to assume that because you think you know the answer, there cannot possibly be any doubt by any reasonable person as to the answer. Even if I agree with your answer, that doesn’t make it an unreasonable question.

As I have said about six times in various posts on this thread (not sure how you can have missed them), as far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t matter whether it was suicide or not because it is not possible to commit a mortal sin under those circumstances. I don’t think that it was suicide either, but since I wasn’t actually in any of the peoples’ heads, I don’t see how I could say for sure that NONE of them had the primary intention of taking his or her own life. But as I say, even if the act had been itself suicide, it wouldn’t matter, because it is not possible to commit a mortal sin in those circumstances, so the consequences would not have been those of ordinary suicide.

–Jen