Reaching heaven is a matter of chance

[celluloid]

and again this is all a matter of the underlying premise of reality that God has created. Since God created it, and explained to us the parable in Matthew about the farmhands, one ought to start realizing its not of our concern.

You say “not of our concern”. Isn’t that just another way of saying “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!”? The man behind the curtain is the illogic of heaven and hell. On the one hand we are told that we have certain obligations toward God to perform and if we do well enough we might avoid hell which is our due from the moment of birth. And on the other hand those from the moment of conception until the age of reason (if they die before then) are considered to be heaven bound by most Catholic parents. The Church itself shrugs and leaves the question open because it is logically irreconcilable.

I am sorry Celluloid, you have no ground to stand on…

CCC #1261 states:

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God, who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children, which caused him to say, ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them’ [Mark 10:14, cf. 1 Tim. 2:4], allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism.

Here the Church evades the question.

The Church itself can’t resolve this question because they realize that no answer is adequate. They are painted into a corner by their own insistence on baptism and free will.

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
*
Chance:
1 a : something that happens unpredictably without discernible human intention or observable cause b : the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings : LUCK c : the fortuitous or incalculable element in existence.*

If not by impersonal chance or luck, then by external intent (divine providence) – such as a child that is unfortunate to have a brutal father. Either way, the fates of the unborn are unaccountable from the child’s perspective.

 

[visavismeyou]

Still all the same… Ok you must reconcile:

1. God has given us guidance on how we ought to handle such situations in the parable of the farmhands. You are violating that instruction by concerning yourself of God’s gifts to others. You are selfishly saying “But God! infants get it easy, that is not fair!” and/or “But God! infants, by chance, get to heaven without having to live life!”
2. Chance:
   1 a : something that happens unpredictably without discernible human intention or observable cause b : the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings : LUCK c : the fortuitous or incalculable element in existence.

Thanks! This helps clear things up greatly. 1a helps because it displays “without observable cause”. We cannot understand nor observe the cause, thus we give it this mysterious label of “Chance”. Just as we cannot understand nor observe how or why time moves as it does, it just keeps moving.

1b helps because it displays how chance is assumed to be “purposeless” yet just like with time, which can be assumed to be purposeless and moves at an arbitrarily determined “speed” (1 second per second) when it could move at some other “speed” according to our belief structure, God created these things in some way which we ought not concern ourself with.

1c wraps it all up “incalculable” I’ve been saying that since this thread began.

Again, you saying God ought to do this or ought to do that, or saying that God is unjust in doing this or unjust in doing that is like the House telling the architect “Put my wall over there” or “make my staircase 19 steps not 17”.

The reality of the matter is that there is biblical guidance and logical truths you are not willing to actualize for yourself yet, they will come to you, just give them time .

Just to clear things up, celluloid are you an atheist? Catholic? Buddhist? Jewish?

 

[celluloid]

Still all the same… Ok you must reconcile:

1. God has given us guidance on how we ought to handle such situations in the parable of the farmhands. You are violating that instruction by concerning yourself of God’s gifts to others. You are selfishly saying “But God! infants get it easy, that is not fair!” and/or “But God! infants, by chance, get to heaven without having to live life!”

Let me give you another parable to ponder.

***One day, a poor mother staring at a bare pantry fretted whether she would have anything to feed her 5 children. On a hunch, she peeked inside the cookie jar and, to her surprise, found ten cookies.

She then thought about how to distribute them to her kids. At first she decided to award the cookies based the kids’ skill at basketball, but realized that was a bad idea, because the boys being taller and more experienced would have an unfair advantage over the smaller girls. She thought of other games, but invariably the age or gender bias rendered them all unfair in different ways.

So she devised a simple game of chance, putting numbered pieces of paper numbered 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 into her apron pocket. The children drew the pieces of paper and were awarded cookies according to the number drawn.

Then she saw that her youngest was unlucky and drew a zero. The poor child started to cry and that’s when she became vaguely aware of the alarm clock going off.

Suddenly she found herself in bed, just waking up. It was all just a dream! She laughed to herself as she dressed, thinking about how silly she thought and acted in the dream. She then went straight to the kitchen where she fetched the ten large cookies she knew she had baked late last night, so that her children that she loved dearly could enjoy exactly two cookies each.***

The reality of the matter is that there is biblical guidance and logical truths you are not willing to actualize for yourself yet, they will come to you, just give them time .

Just to clear things up, celluloid are you an atheist? Catholic? Buddhist? Jewish?

Agnostic/atheist/humanist. Sorry, I have this tendency to think that what is true for me should be obvious to everyone else.

 

[JLM316]

what I see missing from this thread and your question is real essence of our faith - the fact is we as Christians (and this is how we define ourselves as Christians) believe that God Himself took human form to show us a glimpse of the true essence of Himself as being Love Itself. He, Jesus Christ, showed us by His own example what it takes to be saved - It requires becoming one with Himself (see St. John Chapter 17). - He desires and prays for this (Yes, even God prays) - for it is through our prayer that we draw into this mysterious oneness with God by receiving His Holy Spirit inside us to guide us and help us live a life of total love - loving God Himself with all our heart, soul, and mind, by keeping and obeying His commandments, and Loving our Neighbor as our self - Loving God and others is the essence of Christianity- But God is completely Good and completely Holy, and we are not, and God knows it, God knows we are not because we have the ability to choose ourselves and our own selfish pursuits over the good of others - and of God and therefore there is a seperation between ourselves and God. It was shown to God immediately when our ultimate great grand parents Adam and Eve, who are the ancestor of all of humankind, allowed themselves to be by selfish desires - thus showing God that His creation is free to choose Him or not - the first temptation of original sin caused God to cast us from His presence and set in place a chasm that no man can cross between ourselves and God - God knew this and put in place since the beginning of time a plan to redemn us which would satisfy and fill the chasm but it would required each human who would cross it to do so on thier own will - to choose God and others over themselves by embracing by our own free will the Love which God offers - He requires us to accept and embrace it ourselves - because He knows we have a choice, and only wants those who would choose Him - the sheep as opposed to the goats (See St Matthew Chapter 25:31-46) - So He gave us a way to reach heaven to be with Him by offering Himself - Jesus Christ as a perfect and living sacrafice - as the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world - He came, lived a sinless life, and allowed Himself to be put to death in our place to satisfy in FULL any and everything that seperates us from God - Where we fall short - Jesus fills in - Jesus is why we are going to heaven - Jesus is what saves us - He is Gods free GIFT - with no strings attached to us- but we must freely accept His gift - not with mere words - not with mere actions (like just going to church and following the rules - but othewise still living our worldly selfish lives) - no - what He demands from us to accept the gift is that we join with Him in Love, and become a part of Himself - this is the mystery of the sacraments, and the Church - that we become aa part of God through His Holy Spirit living inside us - If God is everywhere, and the Holy Spirit is one in the same with God and lives inside each of us who are believers in Jesus Christ having been Baptized into His church then God Himself lives in some form inside each of us and desires that we allow that part of ourselves - the Holy Spirit inside us to manifest itself and run our lives - it is NOT our own effort - but rather the effort of God Himself living inside our souls that makes us Holy - that allows us to accept and become a part of His Love and thus accept His free gift - the question is then if God died for all who allow God to be a part of them - then why isn’t everyone who is baptized and has God inside them in the Spirit going to heaven - the answer is because our will to accept Him or not is free - we can decide to do so OR not to do so - If leaves that up to us - therefore those who choose to accept it, those who love God and want to be with God will be saved and only those who don’t want it, because they don’t believe it - who are oblivious to God or shake thier fist at God as being a remnant of mythology are doomed because by this belief they continue to sin and be self absorbed - and thus have no part of God inside them - but those of us who believe who hope, who TRUST in Gods amazing and unconditional love at the cross have hope that we have indeed accepted His free gift - NOT EARNED, NOT ATTAINED (I dislike using the word attain) We do not attain heaven - we accept it the free gift offered in Christ by yielding to God - but allowing Him to run our lives - and that puts us in grace - not our own efforts - we let God do the work - He shines through us.

 

[JLM316]

p.s.

The gift is free for those who accept it - for those who cannot accept it - the Holy Innocents -the unborn, infants - children - those who are mentally ill, or otherwise unable to comprhend the gift and accept it - Jesus did it all for them - He saved them all because they do not have the ability to reject God - so thier hearts are pure - for God loves all of us - and only by our rejection of Him do we fail to accept - those who cannot reject because they are not able to understand are covered under His precious blood because it filled the chasm for us - there is no matter of chance - they are going to heaven because they are blameless. God only sends to hell those who want to go there because they reject His Love. Do I know I am going to heaven?? Do I believe I am assured of it - the question needs to rephrased - Do I know I truly accepted His gift ? Yes - I know it right at this moment - if I were to die today I would be with the Lord - AM I capible of rejecting the gift - YES I am human - I could. Does God still love me and want me back - YES. can I go back by simply repenting and turning back to God - YES. As simple as confessing my sins and asking God to lead me back into His grace - repent, and believe anew and you are back - because there is no measuring stick for us because of the cross - if our repentance is geniune - not working the system to our own ends - GOD cares about our hearts - not our outward appearance. Who can judge anothers heart - so no one knows who exactly is saved except God, perhaps not even ourselves - lest our motivations be self directed- but God knows. He knows His children and helps them. He loves us, and we love Him, He is our only hope in a weary world - Christ is the only answer to every question. without Him we are nothing and everything is meaningless under the sun - all our efforts, motivations, ambitions are nothing if we have not the love of Christ living inside us.

 

[The_Augustinian]

“Many are called, but few are chosen.”

Celluloid, you just have to admit that you and I don’t know what God is planning for this world, or for our lives in particular, and it’s better to worry about our own individual conduct than to distract ourselves with the lives of others. And it’s a tempting distraction, to be sure. The religious version of it is seen in trying to be “holier-than-thou” and paying attention to the rights and wrongs of the world like a stiffnecked schoolmarm with a chalk in one hand and a ruler in the other. The more speculative, intellectualized version of it is much more nuanced than this, but not less dangerous.

Why do I not think that reaching Heaven is a matter of chance? Because I don’t believe in chance, I believe in Providence. Call me a Calvinist if you will; Calvin had a good amount of sense in him, as well as many other heretics, despite his other very important differences with Christ’s Church. Through His grace, God enables us to achieve glory. He never asks of us the impossible. It may be difficult, but never impossible.

Moving on to your parable, this of course is not what Catholic doctrine teaches. Every child would be able to get a cookie, just as God enables everyone with His sanctifying grace. Why some don’t get a cookie should not be blamed on the mother, but on the child. Perhaps the child was being naughty and wasn’t allowed a cookie. Likewise, in a more radical fashion, sin separates us from the Living God. Perhaps we might not all get the same number of “cookies” in the end, but what does that matter to anyone not tainted with envy? We should at least be grateful for God’s generosity, and as beggars, not be picky choosers.

If God was not good, then all is for naught. But, I trust in my heart that God is good, and pray that all will be well.

Finally, if you begrudge the little children whom Christ would gladly welcome the benefits of Heaven, you, sir, are a prig.

 

[visavismeyou]

Let me give you another parable to ponder.

Instead of responding to the obviousness of what I said, you respond with an irrelevent story. Good dodge.

Agnostic/atheist/humanist.

I’d contend with you being Agnostic as you tend to make vast assumptions as if you know exactly what the “greater being that is” actually is and how “it” thinks and that you know how “it” governs.

Additionally, you cannot be agnostic and athesitic. They are mutually exclusive.

As far as humanist is concerned, all Catholics are Humanists, some may not think so, but we are as Jesus was the pinnical of all humanistic philosophy (without the selfish inuendo that humanism has picked up over the years).

Sorry, I have this tendency to think that what is true for me should be obvious to everyone else.

Since there is universal, objective truth, it is. However, as I could believe that a Frog is God, any one person can believe whatever they please, thats called free will. The problem is there is a difference between truth and belief. I believe that I will go to heaven after I die, the truth of the matter is that I dont actually know that I will go to heaven after I die.

I believe that God knows what he is doing and the truth is, God told me that I should not bicker with Him about the “payment” that he will give a baby who dies in his mother’s womb. That is up to God and God alone.

 

[visavismeyou]

you there celluloid?

 

[jmcrae]

Suddenly she found herself in bed, just waking up. It was all just a dream! She laughed to herself as she dressed, thinking about how silly she thought and acted in the dream. She then went straight to the kitchen where she fetched the ten large cookies she knew she had baked late last night, so that her children that she loved dearly could enjoy exactly two cookies each.

Two of the ten cookies remained in the jar, uneaten, because one of the boys had run away from home - he felt that her rules were too strict, and besides all that, he had no proof, other than her word for it and a rather flimsy looking birth certificate that she was really his mother, anyway.

In fact, the longer he stayed away from home, the more it seemed to him that she had always been a figment of his imagination, anyway.

 

[Thaddaeus]

“Contracepting and saying it’s ok because your conscience says it’s ok is like sitting in a living room engulfed in flames and saying there is no fire because the smoke alarm isn’t beeping.”

Yeah, i’m confused too on this matter. I’ve been thinking about this for a while now, and it seems to me that Eternal Father, Lord Jesus Christ, and/or the Holy Spirit nudge a spirit to repent perhaps for a bit of time (maybe a few days, wks, …) before their departure from Earth. This is a mere speculation of mine so correct me if am wrong *. Anyway, but as for innocent infants we can only assume they are given salvation.
I am interested in this and i’d like to now more…

P.S. i love your analogy with the fire in the living room-i laughed so hard u have no idea…hahahahaha–AWESOME! i’ve never seen a better analogy.*

 

[Mighty_Q]

Let me give you another parable to ponder.

***One day, a poor mother staring at a bare pantry fretted whether she would have anything to feed her 5 children. On a hunch, she peeked inside the cookie jar and, to her surprise, found ten cookies.

She then thought about how to distribute them to her kids. At first she decided to award the cookies based the kids’ skill at basketball, but realized that was a bad idea, because the boys being taller and more experienced would have an unfair advantage over the smaller girls. She thought of other games, but invariably the age or gender bias rendered them all unfair in different ways.

So she devised a simple game of chance, putting numbered pieces of paper numbered 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 into her apron pocket. The children drew the pieces of paper and were awarded cookies according to the number drawn.

Then she saw that her youngest was unlucky and drew a zero. The poor child started to cry and that’s when she became vaguely aware of the alarm clock going off.

Suddenly she found herself in bed, just waking up. It was all just a dream! She laughed to herself as she dressed, thinking about how silly she thought and acted in the dream. She then went straight to the kitchen where she fetched the ten large cookies she knew she had baked late last night, so that her children that she loved dearly could enjoy exactly two cookies each.***

Of course, the younger children still thought this unfair, because the older children had received cookies in the past, and therefore thought that their mother loved the older ones the best.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Because it is unfair, hypothetically. Since none of us has been to heaven, we can only speak of it hypothetically in any case.

God is the potter, you are the clay. How can the clay say to the potter, “Why did you make me this way”? Your assumption of unfairness is based upon your limited understanding and is not God’s problem. It’s yours.

As in all other questions like this, I refer people to the book of 2 Esdras in the Catholic Bible.

Peace…

MW

 

[jimmy]

Doesn’t it strike you as the least bit unfair for those of us with a normal lifespan, if many are in heaven without merit but for the sole reason that they died young?

Not really. It simply shows that there is a purpose to this life and that we are not simply trying to get to the afterlife.

 

[beckycmarie]

How could you not think that going to heaven is at least largely a matter of chance?

Going to Heaven is a matter of choice, not chance. We can choose at any moment in our lives not to turn our backs on God by choosing not to commit a mortal sin.

Fr. Serpa had a good response to this very question in “Ask and Apologist” recently:

Isn’t it unfair that time can trap us into dying in mortal sin?

 

[Mighty_Q]

Doesn’t it strike you as the least bit unfair for those of us with a normal lifespan, if many are in heaven without merit but for the sole reason that they died young?

Aren’t all those in heaven there without merit?

 

[jmcrae]

Aren’t all those in heaven there without merit?

Billy Joel says that only the good die young - I say that only the young die good.

If the young go to Heaven without merit, then how much more so the old, who have committed so many more sins than the young?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

People lose their lives at various ages, and usually no one can predict when someone will pass away. With the exceptions of suicide or martyrdom, causes of death are involuntary and subject to chance occurrences. The vast majority of deaths are attributable to various causes such as natural or manmade events, human biological limitations and pure chance.

If it is the case that all who die as infants or in the womb attain heaven (perhaps via purgatory), then it is their good fortune to die so young, since they don’t have to face the possibility of either a difficult, painful life, and more importantly, avoiding the possibility of committing mortal sin and not being saved.

The important point here is that infants who die do not get any chance to merit heaven or hell, yet they surely are innocent of any wrongdoing, and I imagine that most people believe that they are given the free pass to heaven.

Further, there are similar problems for others who die at a relatively young age. If they mortally sinned as a young adult and died soon after, they are unfortunate to not have a chance at a full life and a chance to redeem themselves. Conversely, if they lived a righteous life and died young, they were fortunate to be denied the opportunity to fall into sin at a later time, assuming they attained heaven. A Christian cannot deny that possibility given the existence of free will.

The reason I point out this difficulty is my perception that Christian salvation beliefs seem to make some sense for those with average lives and average lifespans, but breakdown as capriciously absurd in the instances illustrated here. And those instances are hardly special.

Consider these statistics from the CDC:

“Overall, U.S. women are currently averaging 2.0 live births, 0.7 induced abortions, and 0.5 miscarriages and stillbirths, or a total of 3.2 pregnancies each, of which only 1.8 are wanted births…”

For every 100 live births there are about 60 aborted or miscarried babies. And that is for the U.S. In third world countries, where medical care is poor, infant mortality is much higher as are miscarriages.

It may be that in the entire history of humankind, souls who have lived and died in the womb outnumber those who lived to old age.

How do you, as a catholic, reconcile that a very large percentage of souls in heaven may be aborted or miscarried children? That’s not to mention deceased older children. Or, if you believe they aren’t saved, how do you reconcile innocents missing out on heaven through no fault of their own?

How could you not think that going to heaven is at least largely a matter of chance?

All things in creation, without exception, are governed by the Providence of God.​

**Our inability to see the connections between events does not make events random to God - it means only that they are, or may be, random to us. To one person, a speeding ambulance is of no importance - it is merely a fact. To the patients who need it, it will be very important. **

**Everything is “a matter of chance”, in the sense that every single circumstance in our lives can be seen as part of a whole, or, the whole can be chopped up into little pieces, & those pieces analysed in isolation. From one POV, a mosaic is “nothing but” a large number of bits of coloured glass - from another, it is a large number of bits of coloured glass, & something more: it is made up of a large number of bits of coloured glass, to form a coherent pattern. Events are not events & no more - they are loaded with meaning, by being parts of a whole which none of them can exhaust; just as the mosaic is made of the pieces of glass, without being “nothing but” what it is made of. What a mosaic is made of, does not fully account for it - that an event happens, does not fully account for it. **

To believe in God’s Providence, is to believe that all **creation forms a coherent pattern, all of it completely within God’s control. The whole pattern may not be clear to man on earth, but it is clear to God, & in His good time it will be seen as it is meant to be seen. We are in the position of people watching a tapestry being woven, & watching from the wrong side, so that we may be able to see a tapestry is being woven, but not what the pattern is. As Christians, we know there is a pattern - we are not entirely in the dark. **

**The Holy Spirit is the pledge of the reality & certainty of this. **

Hope that helps.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Aren’t all those in heaven there without merit?

**AFAICS, the very possibility of meriting has the grace of Christ as its only possible atmosphere & environment. **​

---

**So: the whole of our salvation is totally gratuitous - &, our created nature is taken up “within” that salvation, which is totally the act of God in Christ, in such a way that our acts can have the value of Christ’s, because we are without life or strength, except in Him. We a****re not His fellow-workers; but members ****of Him, **through whom He is not ashamed to work

---

• Can we merit ? Yes
• Independently of Him ? No
• In proportion as we die to self, & live only in Him ? Yes

 

[justinthemartyr]

**AFAICS, the very possibility of meriting has the grace of Christ as its only possible atmosphere & environment. **​

---

**So: the whole of our salvation is totally gratuitous - &, our created nature is taken up “within” that salvation, which is totally the act of God in Christ, in such a way that our acts can have the value of Christ’s, because we are without life or strength, except in Him. We a****re not His fellow-workers; but members ****of Him, **through whom He is not ashamed to work

---

• Can we merit ? Yes
• Independently of Him ? No
• In proportion as we die to self, & live only in Him ? Yes

Can you define the three types of “merit” you are speaking of as the Church understands it? it is in no way the type of “merit” that most humans understand.