Reaction to traditional liturgy

[Brennan_Doherty]

Excellent article on people’s reactions to the Pope’s motu proprio and traditional liturgy in general. Here is a quote:

“The first ideology, egalitarianism, can be seen in such terms as “stuffy”, “elitist”, “hierarchical”, “the priest has his back to us”, and “clericalist”. Egalitarianism, of course, is the ideology that seeks to level all differences and distinctions, and asserts radical equality. The problem is that Catholic liturgy is intrinsically “unequal”. Liturgy is about we humans, who are not God, worshipping God, who is God. Sorry to belabor something that should seem obvious, but, unfortunately, many have worked for the last 30 years to obscure that obvious fact. Catholic Liturgy is intrinsically hierarchical: In it God comes to us in an act of condescension, witnessed by the angels and saints who are quite literally above and beyond us, through the ministry of a priest who is at the time of the Eucharistic Sacrifice alter Christus.”

thrownback.blogspot.com/2008/01/necessary-conversation-about.html

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Catholic Liturgy is intrinsically hierarchical: In it God comes to us in an act of condescension, witnessed by the angels and saints who are quite literally above and beyond us, through the ministry of a priest who is at the time of the Eucharistic Sacrifice alter Christus."

In an act showing feelings of superiority? In a patronizing act?

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

In an act showing feelings of superiority? In a patronizing act?

No, in an act of going from higher to lower which happens at every Mass.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

No, in an act of going from higher to lower which happens at every Mass.

The word used seems so very wrong - bothered me so much I looked it up to make sure what the definition was - hence the wording of my questions.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The word used seems so very wrong - bothered me so much I looked it up to make sure what the definition was - hence the wording of my questions.

When you looked up the word did you notice that there is more than one accepted definition?

Such as the first one from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

1 : voluntary descent from one’s rank or dignity in relations with an inferior

 

[Eilish_Maura]

When you looked up the word did you notice that there is more than one accepted definition?

Such as the first one from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

1 : voluntary descent from one’s rank or dignity in relations with an inferior

I used Oxford American Dictionary.

This is what I found:

condescend |ˌkändəˈsend|
verb intrans. ]

show feelings of superiority; patronize : take care not to condescend to your reader.

• do something in a haughty way, as though it is below one’s dignity or level of importance : we’ll be waiting for twenty minutes before she condescends to appear.

DERIVATIVES
condescendence |-ˈsendəns| noun ( rare).
condescension |-ˈsen ch ən| noun

ORIGIN Middle English (in the sense [give way, defer] ): from Old French condescendre, from ecclesiastical Latin condescendere, from con- ‘together’ + descendere ‘descend.’

 

[belgianwaffles9]

I used Oxford American Dictionary.

This is what I found:

Okay, so, what, you just get to ignore other equally valid definitions? Seriously, you have to be purposefully trying pretty hard to take words out of context to argue against the OP’s point.

It is an act of condescension because God is lowering himself to our worthless level, just as he did when he took a human body and came to us in the form of Jesus Christ.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Okay, so, what, you just get to ignore other equally valid definitions? Seriously, you have to be purposefully trying pretty hard to take words out of context to argue against the OP’s point.

It is an act of condescension because God is lowering himself to our worthless level, just as he did when he took a human body and came to us in the form of Jesus Christ.

Why are we worthless?

We are made in God’s image and likeness - what kind of ‘god’ makes something worthless that way?

All of salvation history is a joke if we think of humanity as worthless.

 

[CradleCath]

Why are we worthless?

We are made in God’s image and likeness - what kind of ‘god’ makes something worthless that way?

All of salvation history is a joke if we think of humanity as worthless.

When compared to God, Who brings Himself into our midst during the Mass, we are worth LESS than He is. We can never be worthy enough to deserve this action…yet he comes anyway.

The definition of “worth” is value.
The definition of “less” is of smaller importance or quantity.
Thus worthless = of smaller value.
Do you think that human beings, while still sinful & dwelling on this earth are of the same value that God is?

Instead of zeroing in on words such as “condescend” or “worthless”, don’t you think it would be better to find the meaning & values inherent in the COMPLETE post?

 

[Windmill]

Brennan,

Great article. I’m amazed at how so many people equate order and hierarchy with stuffiness. We Americans have no idea about reality because our gut instinct is to shun all authority. Everything is looked at in terms of power and supression instead of a family. A father is the head of the family, but he is not the master that can abuse his authority (even this statement gets American feminists in a tizzy).

So, a liturgy that displays proper order, hierarchy, and decorum is at odds with American culture. That having been said, my next question is obvious: Who in their right mind wants the depraved American culture to define them instead of the Mass of the Ages that has inspired centuries of saints?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

When compared to God, Who brings Himself into our midst during the Mass, we are worth LESS than He is. We can never be worthy enough to deserve this action…yet he comes anyway.

The definition of “worth” is value.
The definition of “less” is of smaller importance or quantity.
Thus worthless = of smaller value.
Do you think that human beings, while still sinful & dwelling on this earth are of the same value that God is?

Actually, “worthless” is generally used to denote lack of worth.

 

[havemercy]

A lesson in humility: God is a non-contingent being. We are contingent beings. God is eternal, transcendant; we are a speck in the universe incapable of loving Love as we ought.

Yes, God condescends to us. That’s why He became mas in Jesus Christ – and we didn’t put Him here, it was His free choice.

 

[CradleCath]

Actually, “worthless” is generally used to denote lack of worth.

I know it is, but that is not necessarily what it SHOULD denote. Do you really think that is what the poster meant when he said, “it is an act of condescension because God is lowering himself to our worthless level, just as he did when he took a human body and came to us in the form of Jesus Christ”. I don’t. I think that the poster meant that compared to God we are worth less.
And I think that some people here are too anxious to jump on a word & use it to denigrate another’s entire message. Perhaps if we read a post for content, look for fidelity to the faith, or politely ask that poster what he/she meant, we’d all be better off.

 

[CradleCath]

I know it is, but that is not necessarily what it SHOULD denote. Do you really think that is what the poster meant when he said, “it is an act of condescension because God is lowering himself to our worthless level, just as he did when he took a human body and came to us in the form of Jesus Christ”. I don’t. I think that the poster meant that compared to God we are worth less.
And I think that some people here are too anxious to jump on a word & use it to denigrate another’s entire message. Perhaps if we read a post for content, look for fidelity to the faith, or politely ask that poster what he/she meant, we’d all be better off.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Brennan,

Great article. I’m amazed at how so many people equate order and hierarchy with stuffiness. We Americans have no idea about reality because our gut instinct is to shun all authority. Everything is looked at in terms of power and supression instead of a family. A father is the head of the family, but he is not the master that can abuse his authority (even this statement gets American feminists in a tizzy).

So, a liturgy that displays proper order, hierarchy, and decorum is at odds with American culture. That having been said, my next question is obvious: Who in their right mind wants the depraved American culture to define them instead of the Mass of the Ages that has inspired centuries of saints?

Windmill, good points. I do agree that the TLM is counter to American culture to the extreme. In America, we want to eradicate gender differences and this gets played out in the liturgy where it is an “affront” not to have women priests or altar girls or women up at the altar in some capacity. And there is the notion of “rights” in American culture where, again, since there are not supposed to be any real differences (everyone being equal) certain people have a “right” to be up at the altar and the priest is really no different from us.

I also agree that we need the TLM to help form us more as Catholics, who recognize hierarchy and order and ontological differences between the priesthood and laity and men and women. Along with the lifting of our hearts and minds to Christ, of course.

Otherwise we can be too easily shaped by the present day culture and its mindset.

 

[Windmill]

And there is the notion of “rights” in American culture where, again, since there are not supposed to be any real differences (everyone being equal) certain people have a “right” to be up at the altar and the priest is really no different from us.

Of course, I’m sure you’re aware that Cardinal Medina, when he was prefect for the CDWDS said, “No one has the right to serve at the altar,” thereby eliminating the argument that anyone who is prevented from serving as an altar server is having their rights trampled on.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Of course, I’m sure you’re aware that Cardinal Medina, when he was prefect for the CDWDS said, “No one has the right to serve at the altar,” thereby eliminating the argument that anyone who is prevented from serving as an altar server is having their rights trampled on.

No, I wasn’t aware (or had forgotten). Good for the Cardinal.

 

[Larry1700]

Brennan,

Great article. I’m amazed at how so many people equate order and hierarchy with stuffiness. We Americans have no idea about reality because our gut instinct is to shun all authority. Everything is looked at in terms of power and supression instead of a family. A father is the head of the family, but he is not the master that can abuse his authority (even this statement gets American feminists in a tizzy).

So, a liturgy that displays proper order, hierarchy, and decorum is at odds with American culture. That having been said, my next question is obvious: Who in their right mind wants the depraved American culture to define them instead of the Mass of the Ages that has inspired centuries of saints?

 

[brotherhrolf]

Hate to disabuse y’all of your notions but I grew up with the TLM. The priest (pastor bonus) was understood to be leading his congregation (flock) in worship to the Most High. Of course he had his back to us - he was in front of us leading the flock! It wasn’t about us as it is today. It was about Him! It wasn’t a celebration of community; it was worship of Him! So of course the tradtional liturgy is going to look different. It’s not about us.