Reactions from Jews and non-Jews to Ordination of Modern Orthodox Female Rabbi

[meltzerboy]

Recently, Sara Hurwitz was ordained by Avi Weiss as the first Orthodox Rabbi (“Rabba”) of the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale in New York City. (I believe, however, there was a female Orthodox Rabbi a few hundred years ago but cannot remember her name or the circumstances surrounding her ordination.) Modern Orthodoxy in Judaism is not quite as strict with respect to Torah observance as Traditional Orthodoxy, Haredi Chasidism, or Haredi Litvish. However, it is still within the framework of the Orthodox Jewish community, and NOT as lenient as Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, or Humanistic Judaism. Reform Judaism, for example, has ordained female Rabbis for many years now. The event has met with mixed reaction within Orthodox Judaism, somewhat more positively among women than men and among Modern Orthodox Jews than more Traditional Orthodox Jews.

What are the reactions among Jews (all five or six of you on the Forum) and among Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus and others (including agnostics and atheists) to this event? Reactions of women, in particular, would be appreciated. Not that the Catholic Church takes its cue from Judaism, but what influence do Catholics think this may have on their own religious doctrine regarding women as priests in years to come? Finally, do you think this is a good thing for Judaism or not?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Recently, Sara Hurwitz was ordained by Avi Weiss as the first Orthodox Rabbi (“Rabba”) of the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale in New York City. (I believe, however, there was a female Orthodox Rabbi a few hundred years ago but cannot remember her name or the circumstances surrounding her ordination.) Modern Orthodoxy in Judaism is not quite as strict with respect to Torah observance as Traditional Orthodoxy, Haredi Chasidism, or Haredi Litvish. However, it is still within the framework of the Orthodox Jewish community, and NOT as lenient as Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, or Humanistic Judaism. Reform Judaism, for example, has ordained female Rabbis for many years now. The event has met with mixed reaction within Orthodox Judaism, somewhat more positively among women than men and among Modern Orthodox Jews than more Traditional Orthodox Jews.

What are the reactions among Jews (all five or six of you on the Forum) and among Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus and others (including agnostics and atheists) to this event? Reactions of women, in particular, would be appreciated. Not that the Catholic Church takes its cue from Judaism, but what influence do Catholics think this may have on their own religious doctrine regarding women as priests in years to come? Finally, do you think this is a good thing for Judaism or not?

I think perhaps maybe there should be a bit more background for non-Jews concerning this.

Has this been an issue that has divided Orthodox Judaism for some time now? Honestly I’m stunned that such a thing could happen, but then again, I don’t really have an indepth knowledge about the history of Orthodox Judaism.

 

[meltzerboy]

I think perhaps maybe there should be a bit more background for non-Jews concerning this.

Has this been an issue that has divided Orthodox Judaism for some time now? Honestly I’m stunned that such a thing could happen, but then again, I don’t really have an indepth knowledge about the history of Orthodox Judaism.

This occurred in 2009 and, to my knowledge, many, if not most, Orthodox Jews and even official teaching of Modern Orthodox Judaism reject or condemn this action by Avi Weiss and two other rabbis who participated in conferring the title to Sara Hurwitz. AFAIK, she has so far kept her rabbinical title despite some fierce opposition and even a Jewish kind of “excommunication” of Avi Weiss by some ultra-orthodox Haredi leaders. She had been working as a dean in the Hebrew Institute for five years prior to becoming a rabbi. I believe this to be as monumental an event in Orthodox Judaism as conferring the title of priest to a woman would be in Catholicism.

 

[jmcrae]

My first reaction is that I don’t think this will have any influence on the Catholic understanding of the priesthood, since I don’t think there is any perceived correlation between a rabbi (teacher, or preacher?) and a priest (one who is consecrated and separated out for the purpose of offering up religious sacrifices on a stone or wooden Altar).

The nearest equivalent to a Rabbi in Catholic thought would be, I think, a theologian - and I think that although female theologians are fairly rare, they are not unknown in Catholicism. It has never been forbidden for Catholic women to become educated, or to hold degrees in theology.

But it seems as if this ordination to become a Rabbi was done without the proper authority, in any case - which means that even if there is a perceived correlation between Rabbis and the priesthood, it falls into the same category as every womynpriest ever unlawfully ordained to date, and there are, of course, quite a few of these.

Given that, I would say, no - there will be no effect on the Catholic Church from this event.

 

[Bezant]

Recently, Sara Hurwitz was ordained by Avi Weiss as the first Orthodox Rabbi (“Rabba”) of the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale in New York City. (I believe, however, there was a female Orthodox Rabbi a few hundred years ago but cannot remember her name or the circumstances surrounding her ordination.) Modern Orthodoxy in Judaism is not quite as strict with respect to Torah observance as Traditional Orthodoxy, Haredi Chasidism, or Haredi Litvish. However, it is still within the framework of the Orthodox Jewish community, and NOT as lenient as Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, or Humanistic Judaism. Reform Judaism, for example, has ordained female Rabbis for many years now. The event has met with mixed reaction within Orthodox Judaism, somewhat more positively among women than men and among Modern Orthodox Jews than more Traditional Orthodox Jews.

What are the reactions among Jews (all five or six of you on the Forum) and among Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus and others (including agnostics and atheists) to this event? Reactions of women, in particular, would be appreciated. Not that the Catholic Church takes its cue from Judaism, but what influence do Catholics think this may have on their own religious doctrine regarding women as priests in years to come? Finally, do you think this is a good thing for Judaism or not?

Interesting case – apparently there wasn’t even a word in Hebrew for a female rabbi until a decade or two ago – but I’m rather indifferent on the matter in non-Christian and Protestant communities.

I think Hurwitz’s ordination won’t have an impact on our doctrine, but it could definitely have an impact on our image, and a negative one. Male-only ordination continues to look more and more sexist in a community that maintains it, be it Haredi, Catholic, or Muslim. That’s especially if more traditional/conservative/mainline groups, like C.o.E., allow it.

Could it be a good thing for Judaism? Maybe it could open a space and fill a need for Jews who want to be Modern Orthodox and gender-equal. That can definitely be a good thing.

 

[asd72]

What are thoughts on it Meltzerboy?

I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion, and it’s not really my place in any case.

 

[James_Trevor]

…Not that the Catholic Church takes its cue from Judaism, but what influence do Catholics think this may have on their own religious doctrine regarding women as priests in years to come?..

There will be no change in the Church.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’m a women, but I really don’t think women should be in leadership roles in the church. It’s traditionally male territory, and I think bringing women into this territory undermines the whole tradition. Women can do better work in supporting roles, such as nuns in the Catholic Church.

All this so-called equality has gotten out of hand. Yes women and men are equal, but they are different. Women are much better at doing things behind the scenes, and men are better up-front. I know I will get in trouble for this, but that’s how I see it. No women priests, and no women rabbis.

 

[Bezant]

I’m a women, but I really don’t think women should be in leadership roles in the church. It’s traditionally male territory, and I think bringing women into this territory undermines the whole tradition. Women can do better work in supporting roles, such as nuns in the Catholic Church.

All this so-called equality has gotten out of hand. Yes women and men are equal, but they are different. Women are much better at doing things behind the scenes, and men are better up-front. I know I will get in trouble for this, but that’s how I see it. No women priests, and no women rabbis.

While I don’t care what non-Christians, and to a lesser extent, Protestants, do on the matter, I agree.

I’ll probably get in trouble for saying this as well but religion’s a feminine territory without a female priesthood. I don’t think those in favour of a female priesthood realise there’s not only space for you lot, but you outnumber us in the pews (and it’s not just a Christian phenomenon). In a non-PC and primordial sense male church leadership, action and initiative keeps men in the church. Sorry, but boys will be boys.

You’re definitely right – male priesthood is an old tradition. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again – if a woman can do the same things as a male priest, what’s worth breaking that tradition?

 

[kaneata]

As a woman, I don’t see any change coming to the Catholic church, for one, there is no tradition or history of Catholic women priests. We could have married priests down the road since they have been married in the past. But most importantly, Jesus did not give the Church authority to ordain women, that’s why there haven’t been any nor will be any.

When I was in my 20s, I was wishing I could be a priest, but knew it wasn’t possible and even though back then I didn’t agree, thinking it was just men wanting to keep control, I realized that it probably wasn’t going to change. Since then and 30 years later, I chose to teach in Catholic schools and raise a family. Feeling a child move inside me and knowing that I had a part in creating a human being is amazing; God gave that gift only to women!

These are my ways of serving God.

As far as a woman Rabbi goes, I don’t know what your teaching is on that. I think it is a shame though when people do things just to be “politically correct.” We need to be “God correct”

 

[Lokabrenna]

Personally, I’m fine with it, but then again, modern Pagan traditions generally don’t have a problem with ordaining women. (In fact, in some forms of Wicca there is no High Priest, only a High Priestess.) I think there will always be divisions in the community when someone does something that “breaks the mold” like this, and it’s up to the community whether or not they want to accept it. Some will, some won’t, but it personally doesn’t affect me if certain traditions don’t want to ordain women because I have no intention of joining said traditions.

 

[7_Sorrows]

hi, meltzerboy. i did not realize that there is a sect of judaism now called modern orthodoxy. i knew that in orthodox judaism there were only male rabbis.
i took a discovering judaism course several years ago and a reform rabbi and a conservative rabbi led the classes. the conservative rabbi was a woman and i liked her a lot. she was a no nonsense person - very intelligent - and very competent as far as being a good rabbi. i understand that the role of a rabbi and a priest are different and not the same. before i became Catholic, i was episcopalian and at two different times i attended a parish with a female priest and i did not like it. i agree with the Catholic church that priests should be men so i guess for me i can identify more closely with orthodox judaism than any other sect of judaism. if it has happened only once in modern orthodoxy, maybe it will not be popular and not happen very often. i realize that judaism is different than catholicism, but never when i was growing up did i want to lead a congregation or be a priest. i did at one time want to be a nun.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

It seems to me that the patriarchal structure of the Church is in large part based on the patriarchal nature of traditional Jewish culture, so when one is eroded it’s natural to make some sort of connection to the other.

There is, of course, the famous judge Deborah, who may be significant since it’s possible, at least from a Christian perspective, to make a connection between rabbinical authority and the ancient authority of the judges, via the idea of the “seat of Moses,” not that there was any historical continuity between the judges and the rabbis that I’m aware of. Catholic priests however do not derive their authority from Moses but from Christ, the New Moses, and they do so in a fuller, more supernatural manner, which may make what was a loose general pattern for those who in some sense continued Moses’ ministry into something unbreakable for those who continue Christ’s ministry. Then there is the priesthood connection, and there were certainly no Jewish priestesses. Neither were their Davidic queens ruling the people rather than a Davidic king, and it is in that Davidic royal line that you get much more of a real kind of continuity between ancient Israelite authority and modern Church authority.

I’m not worried about the Church someday changing its doctrine and practice on this matter, but I am concerned about the further deterioration of public perception of that doctrine and practice. If the parallel in the virtually uncriticisable Jewish religion disappears that will leave us even more vulnerable to irrational hatred over perceived sexism, and perhaps eventually to legal problems if/when someone decides religious liberty shouldn’t be allowed to overrule the popular interpretation of gender equality.

 

[Zooey]

Neither Catholic nor Jewish, but I am a woman.
I don’t see how this would affect the Catholic Church. The basis for the male-only Catholic priesthood is based on what Jesus did in calling His apostles from men only. (In spite of the fact that He had many women followers).
Unless I misunderstand the nature of the rabbinate as compared to the nature of priests/ministers in the various branches of Christianity, rabbis are, as someone has all ready mentioned, more theologians than anything else.
The comparison that comes to mind, actually, is to St Teresa of Avila, who was the first Catholic woman saint to be named a Doctor of the Catholic Church.
It may be interesting to note , though not truly relevant to mention that St Teresa is believed to have been of partly Jewish descent.

 

[meltzerboy]

hi, meltzerboy. i did not realize that there is a sect of judaism now called modern orthodoxy. i knew that in orthodox judaism there were only male rabbis.
i took a discovering judaism course several years ago and a reform rabbi and a conservative rabbi led the classes. the conservative rabbi was a woman and i liked her a lot. she was a no nonsense person - very intelligent - and very competent as far as being a good rabbi. i understand that the role of a rabbi and a priest are different and not the same. before i became Catholic, i was episcopalian and at two different times i attended a parish with a female priest and i did not like it. i agree with the Catholic church that priests should be men so i guess for me i can identify more closely with orthodox judaism than any other sect of judaism. if it has happened only once in modern orthodoxy, maybe it will not be popular and not happen very often. i realize that judaism is different than catholicism, but never when i was growing up did i want to lead a congregation or be a priest. i did at one time want to be a nun.

Modern Orthodox Judaism has been around for a while, much to the dismay of many who are part of Traditional Orthodox Judaism. Even in Conservative Judaism, female rabbis are not all that common. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the official Modern Orthodox viewpoint is in opposition to this ordination.

 

[meltzerboy]

Neither Catholic nor Jewish, but I am a woman.
I don’t see how this would affect the Catholic Church. The basis for the male-only Catholic priesthood is based on what Jesus did in calling His apostles from men only. (In spite of the fact that He had many women followers).
Unless I misunderstand the nature of the rabbinate as compared to the nature of priests/ministers in the various branches of Christianity, rabbis are, as someone has all ready mentioned, more theologians than anything else.
The comparison that comes to mind, actually, is to St Teresa of Avila, who was the first Catholic woman saint to be named a Doctor of the Catholic Church.
It may be interesting to note , though not truly relevant to mention that St Teresa is believed to have been of partly Jewish descent.

In addition to being a woman, Zooey, you are also a cat lover, which gives you a unique perspective! You’re right that a rabbi does not have the same role or position as a priest, in that he (or she) does not have sole authority to lead certain sacred rituals. In fact, the congregation of the synagogue need not be led by a rabbi at all, so long as the leader has expertise in Jewish Law and custom. A rabbi is said to be a teacher, but this means they not only have solid knowledge in Torah Law and conduct their lives accordingly, but also possess the personal characteristics of wisdom, patience, humility, and likability. Knowledge of other technical domains and life experience are also very helpful. Maimonides discusses some of the prerequisites for the rabbinate.

 

[ConstantineTG]

My first reaction is that I don’t think this will have any influence on the Catholic understanding of the priesthood, since I don’t think there is any perceived correlation between a rabbi (teacher, or preacher?) and a priest (one who is consecrated and separated out for the purpose of offering up religious sacrifices on a stone or wooden Altar).

The nearest equivalent to a Rabbi in Catholic thought would be, I think, a theologian - and I think that although female theologians are fairly rare, they are not unknown in Catholicism. It has never been forbidden for Catholic women to become educated, or to hold degrees in theology.

But it seems as if this ordination to become a Rabbi was done without the proper authority, in any case - which means that even if there is a perceived correlation between Rabbis and the priesthood, it falls into the same category as every womynpriest ever unlawfully ordained to date, and there are, of course, quite a few of these.

Given that, I would say, no - there will be no effect on the Catholic Church from this event.

I was thinking the same thing. We in fact have 3 Doctors of the Church who are women.

 

[Catherine_k]

Rabbi technically means “my greater”…The ending on the Hebrew term reflects the personal possesive and could be attached to a Masculine or Feminine Hebrew Noun (the root word would be “RAV”).

It is interesting to note that some Jewish traditionalists declare the granting of smicha (the authority to lead the community) traces back to Moses transferring his authroity to Joshua at the end of his life. At the time, the Jewish priesthood had been separated from that Key Leadership Role and granted to Aaron and his descendents (in particular, Pinchas). Under that reasoning, Devorah could be a bibical justificaion for allowing women to serve in that leadership role. Within both the First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, the priestly roles (Cohanim or the Cohen Gadol) were NEVER held by women.

For many generations, synagogues or shul’s were led by the Cantor (person wtih the training and greatest ability to lead group prayer). The Cantor (for various reasons INCLUDING a belief that a woman’s singing aloud outside of her family was inherently immodest) was never a woman’s role until the past 50 years. Smicha (the rabbinical authority) is granted now to individuals who demonstrate a great depth of knowledge on Jewish Law (Halacha), Prayer, and Observance. They do not serve in ANY WAY the same function towards prayer or celebrations as a Priest serves. One doesn’t NEED a rabbi for a Jewish Wedding to occur according to Halacha. Or for a Jewish Burial, etc.

The Church’s position of Priest reflects a reuniting of both the teaching and leadership authority with the Priestly function. The Priesthood stems from Jesus’ transferring his authority to Peter and the other apostles. Jesus had many devoted women followers whom he could have appointed to the role and DIDN’T. Today’s church shouldn’t be affected by this.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Modern Orthodox Judaism has been around for a while, much to the dismay of many who are part of Traditional Orthodox Judaism. Even in Conservative Judaism, female rabbis are not all that common. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the official Modern Orthodox viewpoint is in opposition to this ordination.

this is a little off topic, but what differentiates modern orthodox judaism from conservative judaism?
if the modern orthodox viewpoint is in opposition to this ordination, could this rabbi be removed or what happens in a situation like this?

 

[meltzerboy]

this is a little off topic, but what differentiates modern orthodox judaism from conservative judaism?
if the modern orthodox viewpoint is in opposition to this ordination, could this rabbi be removed or what happens in a situation like this?

7 Sorrows, the title of Rabbi may be taken away from her and in effect she can be removed. Modern Orthodox Jews are more orthodox than Conservative Jews, which means they keep as many of the 613 Torah commandments as possible. For example, a Conservative Jew might drive to the synagogue on the Sabbath and carry money, although they would not go to work, go shopping or to a party, whereas a Modern Orthodox Jew (as a Traditional Orthodox or a Chasidic Jew) would walk to the synagogue and not carry money. One difference between Modern Orthodox and Traditional Orthodox is that yeshivas of the former are co-educational and those of the latter are single-sex. Also, I don’t believe Chasidic or Litvish Jews even have yeshivas for women, but that may have changed. Some followers of Orthodox Judaism believe that ALL Jews are Orthodox since they don’t accept the branches of Conservative or Reform. For them, it’s a matter of degree: some are more Orthodox, while others are less so. They prefer the label Torah Judaism to Orthodox Judaism. The term Ultra-Orthodox is regarded by Chasidic and Litvish Jews as derogatory.