Reading Material On the English Reformation

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That’s a very good question. I wish there were more such books. Unfortunately scholarship on the early sixteenth century tends to focus on the Reformation. I was at one time thinking of writing my dissertation on early-sixteenth-century Catholic interpretations of Romans, and my advisor urged me to do this without primarily emphasizing how they interacted with or responded to Protestant arguments. He made the point that there were a number of theologians and exegetes who were simply doing the Catholic thing without interacting with Protestants much at all. Unfortunately there’s not a lot of scholarship on them.

John O’Malley’s book The First Jesuits makes the point that Ignatius Loyola didn’t really think that much about Protestantism initially–the Jesuit mission to fight Protestantism didn’t develop till a little later. The book is an excellent description of the Jesuits as a reform/renewal movement within Catholicism (as a Protestant, I’d always thought of them as the “anti-Protestant” order, so this was helpful).

Thomas Tentler’s Sin and Confession on the Eve of the Reformation is a much-heralded study of penitential practices.

John Bossy’s *Christianity in the West 1400-1700 *is a great survey of the period (fairly controversial but very influential). He addresses the Reformation but not primarily from a confessional point of view. I would strongly recommend this book–it’s influenced my thinking immensely.

In the 19th century, Johannes Janssen’s History of the German People at the Close of the Middle Ages does in a sense for Germany what Duffy did much later for England. Like Duffy, Janssen has a polemical purpose (show that the Reformation destroyed a flourishing Christian culture), and obviously his work is seriously dated now. But his research was very detailed, and I believe that some of it may have been based on archival materials we no longer have, so it’s worth study even apart from its value to Catholic apologists (or in spite thereof!). I have only dipped into it, but would like to read it through some day (it’s a multivolume work).

Another multivolume 19th-century work of Catholic history is Ludwig Pastor’s *History of the Popes from the Close of the Middle Ages. *This, again, is still in high regard today. There are things in it that I would question (such as his overly sharp dichotomy between a “true,” or Christian Renaissance, and a “false,” pagan Renaissance), but it’s well worth looking at.

Johannes Huizinga’s *The Waning of the Middle Ages *(arguably better translated as “Autumn of the Middle Ages”) is another fairly old work, but very influential. I think it’s probably too generalizing and impressionistic, but it’s a classic work worth reading as a general description of late medieval culture.

Another Dutch scholar, Heiko Oberman, wrote a detailed study of the 15th-century theologian Gabriel Biel called *Harvest of Medieval Theology *(with deliberate reference to

Finally, Heiko Oberman’s *The Harvest of Medieval Theology *deliberately plays on Huizinga’s title. It’s a detailed study of the 15th-century theologian Gabriel Biel. I recommend it with reservations, since it has a strong Protestant bias and is very much written with the Reformation in mind (exactly what you don’t want). But it’s one of the most in-depth and thoughtful studies of late medieval theology, and it gives a lot of insights into that theology.

Getting closer to the Reformation, Oberman’s student (and my teacher) David Steinmetz wrote a study of Johann von Staupitz, Misericordia Dei (Staupitz was Luther’s confessor). Steinmetz also wrote a book called *Luther and Staupitz *which points out the important ways in which Staupitz’s late medieval Augustinianism differed from Luther’s theology. Perhaps Steinmetz’s most generally useful book (for non-specialists) is *Reformers in the Wings, *which describes twenty Reformation-era figures who aren’t quite as famous as Luther or Calvin. Five of these are Catholics, and Steinmetz’s accounts of two of them in particular (Geiler von Keysersburg and, of course, Staupitz) give good descriptions of aspects of pre-Reformation theology.

There are a number of other very important works on late medieval theology. I’ll just mention a few names of scholars you should look out for: Paul Vignaux, Gordon Leff, William Courtenay, Francis Oakley, Brian Tierney.

Looking at Della’s response, I’m reminded that I didn’t address the specifically liturgical aspect of your question. The classic work on the history of the Mass is Josef Jungmann’s *The Mass of the Roman Rite. *(Some traditionalists don’t like it because they think it’s too negative about aspects of the history of the Mass.) The recent Oxford History of Christian Worship also has a lot of good information, as does a volume called The Study of LIturgy.

Edwin

Edwin
It will be noted why it’s good to have Contarini around.

GKC
 
I’d like to thank all of you for your suggestions. I’ll take a look into those that I haven’t already read when I get the chance.

If I am going to read about how all of this took place, I will also need good suggestions as to the condition of the Church itself. Are there any books that deal with the Church at that period without referencing the Reformation?

What I’d like to know is if I were living under the reign of Henry the VIII/lived alongside Zwingli, Luther, Hus etc…what would I see and experience? What was the structure of the Mass, pre-Trent?

Thank you again. 👍
One of the things I got from reading ‘Religion And The Decline Of Magic’ was that you might have to distinguish between the ‘people who mattered’ and the ‘people who didn’t matter’ - many of whom would appear to have been in almost complete ignorance of the basic tenets of any religion, never mind the niceties of Catholic or Protestant doctrinal disputes. So, what you would see and experience might really depend on ‘who’ you were in society.
 
For GKC and Contrini, I agree about Belloc. When I read his comments about Elizabeth, especially describing her as a hunchback (as I recall), I realized how much he hated her and how that was affecting his telling of her story. He is entertaining, though, isn’t he? 😉

For ALotLessThumb, if you want responses about the Mass pre-Trent (and not take this thread off topic) you should ask that in either the Traditional Catholicism forum or the Liturgy and Sacraments forum.

I’m glad we’ve been able to help direct you towards some books about the English Reformation. I hope you get some responses re the Church at the time of the Reformation, but I doubt you’ll find much that doesn’t mention the Reformation considering it was a rather big event at the time. :idea:
Entertaining, if not always instructive. My favorite (pardon me if this is well known, but I love it) example of why I would very much liked to have known Belloc occurs in his 1906 campaign for Parliment. He was advised, by local RC clergy, to down-play his Roman Catholicism, in a speech to be delivered at a RC school. He opened like this: “Gentleman, I am a Catholic. As far as possible, I go to Mass every day. This” (taking a rosary from his pocket) “is a Rosary. As far as possible, I kneel down and tell these beads every day. If you reject me on account of my religion, I shall thank God that he has spared me the indignity of being your representative”.

He won, of course.

I’d really like to dine at King’s Land with him, over a bottle of his wine, and listen to him talk. He was no Pale Ebeneezer, but Roaring Bill.

GKC
 
One of the things I got from reading ‘Religion And The Decline Of Magic’ was that you might have to distinguish between the ‘people who mattered’ and the ‘people who didn’t matter’ - many of whom would appear to have been in almost complete ignorance of the basic tenets of any religion, never mind the niceties of Catholic or Protestant doctrinal disputes. So, what you would see and experience might really depend on ‘who’ you were in society.
Yes, although some people would say that Thomas exaggerates this. The truth of this generalization varies from one region and period to another. I would recommend reading works such as Blickle’s Communal Reformation to see examples (from Germany and Switzerland) of “people who didn’t matter” who had very definite theological views (maybe not always orthodox by the standards of the elite, but deeply grounded in basic Christianity). Lower-class and lower-middle-class people were not all the same. That is, of course, an obvious point, but one of the defects of studies like that of Thomas is that it can make us forget this by means of brilliant and well-supported generalizations. (I could be wrong, since I read the book more than ten years ago, but my memory is that Thomas doesn’t devote much attention to differences–he’s trying to paint a picture of a whole popular culture.)

Edwin
 
Entertaining, if not always instructive. My favorite (pardon me if this is well known, but I love it) example of why I would very much liked to have known Belloc occurs in his 1906 campaign for Parliment. He was advised, by local RC clergy, to down-play his Roman Catholicism, in a speech to be delivered at a RC school. He opened like this: “Gentleman, I am a Catholic. As far as possible, I go to Mass every day. This” (taking a rosary from his pocket) “is a Rosary. As far as possible, I kneel down and tell these beads every day. If you reject me on account of my religion, I shall thank God that he has spared me the indignity of being your representative”.
I agree entirely. A marvelous man, however maddening!

Edwin
 
Yes, although some people would say that Thomas exaggerates this. The truth of this generalization varies from one region and period to another. I would recommend reading works such as Blickle’s Communal Reformation to see examples (from Germany and Switzerland) of “people who didn’t matter” who had very definite theological views (maybe not always orthodox by the standards of the elite, but deeply grounded in basic Christianity). Lower-class and lower-middle-class people were not all the same. That is, of course, an obvious point, but one of the defects of studies like that of Thomas is that it can make us forget this by means of brilliant and well-supported generalizations. (I could be wrong, since I read the book more than ten years ago, but my memory is that Thomas doesn’t devote much attention to differences–he’s trying to paint a picture of a whole popular culture.)

Edwin
It does rather explain the ability to achieve rapid change of established religion though - it seems to become more a matter of (proto-) nationalism in England (for want of a less anachronistic term for the the phenomenon), at least to this outsider.
 
It does rather explain the ability to achieve rapid change of established religion though - it seems to become more a matter of (proto-) nationalism in England (for want of a less anachronistic term for the the phenomenon), at least to this outsider.
Oh, I think it’s definitely true that a lot of peasants didn’t understand or care that much. However, the revisionists point to much outrage with the liturgical changes among the common people. And there were lower-middle-class dissidents who had been anticlerical for quite a while and welcomed a more Scripture-centered and less ritualistic religion.

Edwin
 
It does rather explain the ability to achieve rapid change of established religion though - it seems to become more a matter of (proto-) nationalism in England (for want of a less anachronistic term for the the phenomenon), at least to this outsider.
It seems that way to me, too, looking back over 250 years of measures taken to bring the Church under control more of the monarchy and Parliment, and less under any extra-national agency, prior to Henry’s solution to his Gordian knot. Of course, that all was a top-down process.

GKC
 
Oh, I think it’s definitely true that a lot of peasants didn’t understand or care that much. However, the revisionists point to much outrage with the liturgical changes among the common people. And there were lower-middle-class dissidents who had been anticlerical for quite a while and welcomed a more Scripture-centered and less ritualistic religion.

Edwin
I can see the argument about the emergent middle-class, that was a Tudor thing, wasn’t it? Probably there was also a similar effect to after the French Revolution of a class who did well out of dissolutions etc?
 
It seems that way to me, too, looking back over 250 years of measures taken to bring the Church under control more of the monarchy and Parliment, and less under any extra-national agency, prior to Henry’s solution to his Gordian knot. Of course, that all was a top-down process.

GKC
Well, they did seem to end up with a kind of ‘Catholicism minus the Pope’ (at least the serious Protestants seemed to think so, but they got exported!).
 
Well, they did seem to end up with a kind of ‘Catholicism minus the Pope’ (at least the serious Protestants seemed to think so, but they got exported!).
Under Hank, yes. Ignoring the odd things he threatened to do at the end of his life.

It seems to me that his drastic political step to counter the poilitcal act of refusing the decree of nullity was beyond what had been occuring since the First Statute of Westminster, in degree, but not in kind.

GKC
 
Under Hank, yes. Ignoring the odd things he threatened to do at the end of his life.

It seems to me that his drastic political step to counter the poilitcal act of refusing the decree of nullity was beyond what had been occuring since the First Statute of Westminster, in degree, but not in kind.

GKC
I’m afraid it’s starting to go over my head! 🙂

My ancestors were busy ‘keeping their heads down’ in Germany and Italy!
 
I can see the argument about the emergent middle-class, that was a Tudor thing, wasn’t it? Probably there was also a similar effect to after the French Revolution of a class who did well out of dissolutions etc?
I was thinking of people a bit lower down the social scale–small artisans, fairly well-off yeomen, etc. Many of them were Lollards in the late Middle Ages, and a number of them got themselves killed at various points in the sixteenth century, whether as Protestants, as Anabaptists, or as Separatists or Baptists at the end of the century. There seems to have been a kind of hard-boiled, commonsense, ethical piety current among some people of this social class. It often found vent in crude anticlerical jokes like “I can make as holy water as the priest does whenever I urinate” (except they wouldn’t have said “urinate”!), or (in response to a ritual where the priest knocks on the door of the church) “why is our vicar tilting at the church door?”

Edwin
 
Well, they did seem to end up with a kind of ‘Catholicism minus the Pope’ (at least the serious Protestants seemed to think so, but they got exported!).
Edwardian and Elizabethan Protestantism were certainly not “Catholicism minus the Pope.” Both regimes were explicitly Protestant (though Elizabeth less so than Edward). The Puritans thought they were the only serious Protestants, but that didn’t make them right (and until 1662 a lot of Puritans were fully part of the established Church, though it all depends on what you mean by “Puritan” or, for that matter, “serious Protestant”!).

Edwin
 
I was thinking of people a bit lower down the social scale–small artisans, fairly well-off yeomen, etc. Many of them were Lollards in the late Middle Ages, and a number of them got themselves killed at various points in the sixteenth century, whether as Protestants, as Anabaptists, or as Separatists or Baptists at the end of the century. There seems to have been a kind of hard-boiled, commonsense, ethical piety current among some people of this social class. It often found vent in crude anticlerical jokes like “I can make as holy water as the priest does whenever I urinate” (except they wouldn’t have said “urinate”!), or (in response to a ritual where the priest knocks on the door of the church) “why is our vicar tilting at the church door?”

Edwin
It does all rather argue (peasantry who knew little about what was going on, religiously interested artisan class, people who were starting to do well out of dissolutions etc) that once the die was cast . . .
 
Edwardian and Elizabethan Protestantism were certainly not “Catholicism minus the Pope.” Both regimes were explicitly Protestant (though Elizabeth less so than Edward). The Puritans thought they were the only serious Protestants, but that didn’t make them right (and until 1662 a lot of Puritans were fully part of the established Church, though it all depends on what you mean by “Puritan” or, for that matter, “serious Protestant”!).

Edwin
Well, I’m an outsider who looks at the Church of England and it seems much more ‘Catholic’ than the Baptists etc.

I better ‘keep my head down’ on this one!
 
I’m afraid it’s starting to go over my head! 🙂

My ancestors were busy ‘keeping their heads down’ in Germany and Italy!
Italy and Germany at the time are areas I’m not well read on, except with regard to Charles’ V and Francis I’s actions.

My point about the Statute of Westminster was that it was a fair starting point for a list of Parlimentary acts and Royal decrees, over the 200+ years before Henry took the Church in England private, that were aimed at restricting the authority of any agency outside the country (Rome) over the Church in England, while increasing the authority of the national power over the Church in the country. It is likely that some of these changes, while not orginating from a popular demand, were not unpopular with the populace.

GKC
 
Well, I’m an outsider who looks at the Church of England and it seems much more ‘Catholic’ than the Baptists etc.

I better ‘keep my head down’ on this one!
Under Edward VI, the Church of England was a mess.

Of course, so was England.

GKC
 
Well, I’m an outsider who looks at the Church of England and it seems much more ‘Catholic’ than the Baptists etc.
Definitely. But Baptists didn’t even exist until the early 17th century. Being more Catholic than the Baptists doesn’t make you “Catholic without the Pope.” This would be like (in a Jewish context) saying that the “modern Orthodox” are almost the same as the Reformed. No doubt the ultra-Orthodox would think this, but other people would not. (I’m thinking of this because I recently assigned The Chosen to my World Religions students, and they’re always amazed by the fact that the religious conflict in the novel takes place entirely within the world of Orthodox Judaism.)
I better ‘keep my head down’ on this one!
Please do not. You’re contributing a great deal to this discussion (IMHO). I probably wouldn’t have thought to mention Thomas’s book, for instance.

Edwin
 
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