Reading Scripture together as Christians

[guanophore]

Lord willing, we will discuss the other half of the New Testament on another thread. I love the Epistle of James. I want to discuss the writings of John next. Maybe I will start another thread alongside with thread about the writings of the Apostle Paul? I still might wait too.

Given your deep disrespect for the Catholic faith, you may not be around long enough for this. Most people that come in here strongly prejudiced and with a need to evangelize don’t remain.

Could you please do this to support what you are saying? This thread is about the Bible and the 13 or 14 Epistles of Paul. Could you please share the gospel of God’s grace according to the official Roman Catholic good news (gospel) by providing scriptural proofs using the Pauline Epistles.

You have articulated one of the basic premises that makes the Catholic gospel different from the “biblical” gospel. The Catholic gospel comes from Jesus, through the Apostles. He preached his gospel to them, and charged them to continue preaching it. We receive the gospel from the Church. The scriptures support the faith that we receive, but is not meant to be a “proof text” for our faith. Scripture is very valuable, but is not the source of our faith. 2 Tim 3:16-17
6 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

Scripture is used for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness, but not as the Source of our faith, which is in Christ Himself.

I’m saying it can’t be done. If you say that I’m wrong, try not to post personal opinion and start posting the writings of Paul to support your position.

Indeed, and should not be done. We understand the message of salvation through all that God has revealed, in the OT, through His preparation of the Jewish people, through what He gave to the Church, and how all this is represented in the ENTIRE NT. We don’t cherry pick Pauline verses and create a doctrine foreign to what we received from the Apostles.

The Protestant Reformation is grounded on the foundation that the Roman Catholic gospel is not

This is most certainly a true statement.
Except that the Catholic Church is not “Roman”. Your continued use of this word, after you have been advised that it is considered insulting, is one of the reasons your stay here may be short.

the same gospel found in the Scriptures alone.

Yes, when one reads the scripture alone (separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced them), one comes up with any variety of different gospels.

It is grounded in the rejection of the Catholic authority for Scriptural truth.

I am not sure what this means. Are you saying that the Reformed understanding of the Gospel is based in rejection?

If you think the Reformers are wrong, please take my challenge by supporting the Roman Catholic gospel with the Epistles of Paul.

Silly request.

 

[guanophore]

I understand the connection with sacrament and faith. I do not deny that. However, the Roman Catholic salvation is through the sacraments connected to faith.

Catholic salvaton is not “Roman”. Salvation is through Christ. We are saved by His shedding of blood on the cross.

How do you reconcile infant baptismal regeneration if faith is necessary alongside with the converting sacrament?

God accepts the faith of the parents, godparents, and the Church on behalf of the child, just as He accepted them in circumcision.

Do you understand that these are the same central issues that caused the Protestant Reformation in the first place?

No. I think it was the corruption of the clergy. There were a lot of factors, political, economic, and clerical corruption.

Things have not changed in 500 years.

They may not for you, but the Catholic Church took some firm steps for Counter-Reformation to correct the preciptants they were able.

To say that the question is not valid is not dealing with the Scriptures. You are not attempting to wrestle with the Scriptures and choose to believe what the Catholic Church tells you to believe without considering the light of God’s Holy Word (Holy Bible).

The two are not mutually exclusive. We read the scriptures in the light of Church teaching because that is how they were meant to be read.

 Paul does not share the same view of the sacraments as what is taught in official Roman Catholic Theology.

It may seem to you that he does not, but Paul is catholic, and he has a catholic view. That is why everything he writes is Catholic. There are no contradictions between what He writes, and what the Church teaches, because they come from the same source.

I also think Paul only acknowledges two biblical sacarments, and not the 7 sacarments taught by Roman Catholicism. If I’m wrong, please quote Paul.

No, Reformed. We are not “Paulists” like you are. We receive the fullness of faith from the Apostolic succession. We do not limit ourselves to the bit that Paul wrote. His writings were never intended to be a complete compendium of Church belief. Scripture is profitable, not all inclusive.

Romans 10
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Are you includin this because you believe that Catholics are not “saved”?

Would you mind posting the Roman Catholic gospel by using the 13 Epistles of Paul? I don’t think it can be done. In a bible debate, it really doesn’t matter what someone claims what the Church Fathers or Augustine believed. What matters is what Paul and the other Apostles in the Bible taught and believed.

I agree that what matters is what Paul and the other Apostles taught,but not all of it is found in scripture. And we certainly would not limit our understanding of God’s saving message to only the Apostolic writings.

 

[Reformed]

Given your deep disrespect for the Catholic faith, you may not be around long enough for this. Most people that come in here strongly prejudiced and with a need to evangelize don’t remain.

You have articulated one of the basic premises that makes the Catholic gospel different from the “biblical” gospel. The Catholic gospel comes from Jesus, through the Apostles. He preached his gospel to them, and charged them to continue preaching it. We receive the gospel from the Church. The scriptures support the faith that we receive, but is not meant to be a “proof text” for our faith. Scripture is very valuable, but is not the source of our faith. 2 Tim 3:16-17
6 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

Scripture is used for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness, but not as the Source of our faith, which is in Christ Himself.

Indeed, and should not be done. We understand the message of salvation through all that God has revealed, in the OT, through His preparation of the Jewish people, through what He gave to the Church, and how all this is represented in the ENTIRE NT. We don’t cherry pick Pauline verses and create a doctrine foreign to what we received from the Apostles.

This is most certainly a true statement.
Except that the Catholic Church is not “Roman”. Your continued use of this word, after you have been advised that it is considered insulting, is one of the reasons your stay here may be short.

Yes, when one reads the scripture alone (separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced them), one comes up with any variety of different gospels.

I am not sure what this means. Are you saying that the Reformed understanding of the Gospel is based in rejection?

Silly request.

I think you are starting to misquote me out of context. Even when you quote something, you are not even quoting the entire sentence. I have also seen other Catholics post a string of my postings together. Remember, each post is understood within the context of the other surrounding posts. Don’t make apologetics something of the flesh. Look at my participation on this Roman Catholic site to drive all of us closer to God, so by the grace of God we will know Him better. To know Him better is to grow in affection for Him alone.

 

[Reformed]

I don’t see how that passage teaches the notion of an imputed alien righteousness. Paul teaches that the righteousness a Christian possesses does not have a human origin. And this is precisely what he means by righteousness that comes from the law. Righteousness that comes from the law is derived from observance of the law based on one’s natural powers. The point Paul makes throughout his epistles is that this type of righteousness may be acceptable in the eyes of men, but it is not acceptable in the eyes of God. As you already know, Catholics do not believe in an alien imputed righteousness and neither did Augustine or any of the Church Fathers. We believe in an infused righteousness. It is infused because it is a righteousness that is not natural to man. Rather, it is given by God, and hence has a divine origin. So it is righteousness that does not have its origin in man (i.e. righteousness derived from the law), but a righteousness that is of Divine origin (righteousness* from* God). And this righteousness depends on faith because we, moved by the grace of God, must turn to God in faith to receive it. As the Bible states, without faith man cannot please God.

God Bless,
Michael

I think this is the very heart of our division. Within the doctrine of justification, does God impute (count; credit) Christ’s righteousness to us, or does He not? I do not have issues with infused grace for sanctification. Please explain the Catholic view of Christ’s righteousness and how it applies to a Catholic within justification? Romans 4 is my understanding of imputation (credited with the righteousness of Christ) through faith for our justification.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith
4:1 What then shall we say was gained by [1] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [2] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

For those who want to study the issue of our division, here is a link on justification.

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Justification/

 

[Reformed]

Romans 5
**
Peace with God Through Faith**
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we [1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith [2] into this grace in which we stand, and we [3] rejoice [4] in hope of the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

**God’s Everlasting Love **
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I appeal to all Roman Catholic Christians to wrestle with Romans chapters 3, 4, 5, and 8 in prayer and dilligent study before God.

 

[cfrancis]

Romans 5
I appeal to all Roman Catholic Christians to wrestle with Romans chapters 3, 4, 5, and 8 in prayer and dilligent study before God.

Wrestle? Why? Paul’s teaching throughout Romans is Catholic teaching. Not much with which to wrestle from the Catholic side!

 

[Among_Strangers]

I just wanted to pipe in and say how disappointed I am with where this thread went.

From Post 1, the OP:

Reformed:

I would like the opportunity to go through the Epistles of Paul together with others. We will go through an entire book one chapter at a time. You can post whatever comment that you have related to the chapter. But let’s try to keep our comments within the contents of the chapter posted.

Let’s please give it a try:From Post 2

This is my sincere attempt for Christian unity.

We all believe that it is profitable for Christians to mediate on the Word of God together. Please prayfully consider my invitation in the OP.

Reformed, you have not kept to your own rules and this has turned into yet another Us v. Them thread.

I lament the total lack of unity among Christians. The constant bickering and in-fighting is just … big sigh & shaking head To be completely honest it’s stuff like this that makes me seriously doubt that Christianity is the path to follow. I completely understand how people fall out of the “main stream” Christian groups and just seek to love God in a way that does not include going to or belong to any “Church” or denomination. I wish I could say this eloquently but I just can’t. You all are just turning people off to Christ with this kind of stuff. I am most sure that I am not the only one that feels this way.

 

[ryanoneil]

In Rom 4:5-6 Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4

And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (Rom 4:12)

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Rom 4:16)

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; (Rom 4:23)

Paul never uses “alone” with “faith,” and he does not contradict James.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only. (James 2:24)

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Rom 2:13)

Peace

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I lament the total lack of unity among Christians. The constant bickering and in-fighting is just … big sigh & shaking head To be completely honest it’s stuff like this that makes me seriously doubt that Christianity is the path to follow. I completely understand how people fall out of the “main stream” Christian groups and just seek to love God in a way that does not include going to or belong to any “Church” or denomination. I wish I could say this eloquently but I just can’t. You all are just turning people off to Christ with this kind of stuff. I am most sure that I am not the only one that feels this way…

Without a central source for interpreting doctrine and morals we will always have division.

This is why Jesus founded his church on one person and he gave that person the keys to the kingdom.

Jesus wants us to be united, but he knows that we can only be united if we are in agreement about what is true.

 

[Reformed]

I just wanted to pipe in and say how disappointed I am with where this thread went.

From Post 1, the OP:From Post 2

Reformed, you have not kept to your own rules and this has turned into yet another Us v. Them thread.

I lament the total lack of unity among Christians. The constant bickering and in-fighting is just … big sigh & shaking head To be completely honest it’s stuff like this that makes me seriously doubt that Christianity is the path to follow. I completely understand how people fall out of the “main stream” Christian groups and just seek to love God in a way that does not include going to or belong to any “Church” or denomination. I wish I could say this eloquently but I just can’t. You all are just turning people off to Christ with this kind of stuff. I am most sure that I am not the only one that feels this way.

I do confess, that I have broken my own rules. I do apologize for making those rules in the first place. Roman Catholic Christians are not disciplined or trained to stay within the Scriptures. Therefore, what I have suggested is not possible with Roman Catholic Christians. I still want to continue to let the Epistles of Paul guide this thread. But, I will no longer fight those who have the desire to go off the subejct, post links, etc. If you feel compelled to go beyond what is written, do what you must. The light of Scripture does expose each one of us in many ways… in life and doctrine.

11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. - Hebrews 4

 

[ryanoneil]

Jesus does not teach “faith alone” either.

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye , being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh .A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak , they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified , and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matt 12:33-37)

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep , and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose , the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth , and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently , and immediately it fell and the ruin of that house was great. (Luke 6:43-49)

 

[Reformed]

Jesus does not teach “faith alone” either.

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye , being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh .A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak , they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified , and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matt 12:33-37)

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep , and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose , the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth , and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently , and immediately it fell and the ruin of that house was great. (Luke 6:43-49)

Ryan, let’s try to go through an Epsitle of Paul and quote other Bible verses to support that particular part of the letter. I know this challenge is offensive to the Roman Catholic Christian. But, these are the central issues which caused the Protestant Reformation. I find some on here think these issues are not issues. The Protestant Reformtion is still alive and well after 500 years because the Word of God does not changed. What is written cannot be broken.

 

[Reformed]

Here are the last 3 chapters of Philippians. Let’s honor the Word of the Lord and comment on these three chapters. When we are done, we can move to another letter of Paul. Please comment on the verses below.

Philippians 2-4

Christ’s Example of Humility
2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [1] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, [2] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Lights in the World
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

Timothy and Epaphroditus
19 I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be cheered by news of you. 20 For I have no one like him, who will be genuinely concerned for your welfare. 21 For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know Timothy’s [3] proven worth, how as a son [4] with a father he has served with me in the gospel. 23 I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, 24 and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also.

25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26 for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29 So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ
3:1 Finally, my brothers, [5] rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God [6] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [7] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

 

[Reformed]

Straining Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

4:1 Therefore, my brothers, [8] whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm thus in the Lord, my beloved.

Exhortation, Encouragement, and Prayer
2 I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord. 3 Yes, I ask you also, true companion, [9] help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; 6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

God’s Provision
10 I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me. You were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity. 11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. 12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. 13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

14 Yet it was kind of you to share [10] my trouble. 15 And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving, except you only. 16 Even in Thessalonica you sent me help for my needs once and again. 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that increases to your credit. [11] 18 I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. 20 To our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Final Greetings
21 Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me greet you. 22 All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household.

23 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

 

[dawid]

Ryan, let’s try to go through an Epsitle of Paul and quote other Bible verses to support that particular part of the letter. I know this challenge is offensive to the Roman Catholic Christian. But, these are the central issues which caused the Protestant Reformation. I find some on here think these issues are not issues. The Protestant Reformtion is still alive and well after 500 years because the Word of God does not changed. What is written cannot be broken.

I have enjoyed many discussions sharing the Word of God with so-called Protestants.

I found that our discussions were conducted without them making any claims such as those you have made against the Church.

We have also often shared books concerned with our Faith and continue to do so as I believe we have all derived benefits from these interactions.

In South Africa we have the Jesuit Institute of Spirituality in which the majority of the members are not Catholic.

What I have seen in this thread is not a desire for His Will, but attempts to discredit the Church that provided you with the Bible.

This is sad!

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan, let’s try to go through an Epsitle of Paul and quote other Bible verses to support that particular part of the letter. I know this challenge is offensive to the Roman Catholic Christian. But, these are the central issues which caused the Protestant Reformation. I find some on here think these issues are not issues. The Protestant Reformtion is still alive and well after 500 years because the Word of God does not changed. What is written cannot be broken.

Well, that is exactly what I was doing in regards to post #184.

We were just getting into justification. Your not suggesting we abandon that are you?

 

[Among_Strangers]

Roman Catholic Christians are not disciplined or trained to stay within the Scriptures. Therefore, what I have suggested is not possible with Roman Catholic Christians.

Have a nice life. Adios.

 

[cfrancis]

Well, that is exactly what I was doing in regards to post #184.

We were just getting into justification. Your not suggesting we abandon that are you?

I think you made Reformed uncomfortable…

 

[ryanoneil]

I think you made Reformed uncomfortable…

I doubt it. We are straining to get somewhere and I hope we do. I don’t have a problem shifting back to Phillipians, because the rest of the bible will keep being referenced. We will end up in the same place until we hopefully deal with the basic misunderstandings. Sometimes getting a fresh set of eyes on something helps.

 

[Reformed]

I hope everyone understands that the central issue that divides us is the same issue that caused the Protestant Reformation. We all agree that Roman Catholicism cannot change in doctrine. Therefore, the positiion of the Roman Catholic Church on the doctrine of justification is the exact same position she had 500 years ago. The Protestant Reformers left to Catholic Church because they understood justification through imputation and as a forensic understanding. We are not debating anything new. The only reason why you think I am been divisive is simply that some Protestants have left the position of the orginal Reformers due to ignorance of historic Protestantism.

For those who understand our division of justificaiton, which is the heart of the gospel… I hope you will continue on this thread. Our mutually exclusive views on justification leaves us with different gospels. What else can I say, because we are commanded by God to proclaim and defend His gospel. We have enmity on this thread because we proclaim two different gospels to the world.

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice - Phil 1