Reading Scripture together as Christians

[guanophore]

I don’t think he quoted scripture but rather he gave us Roman Catholic dogma. Are you asking me about the True Rock?

Actually, Catholicism is not “Roman” as you have been apparently misled to believe.

Neither did I mention the Rock at all. However, since you bring it up, I will say that, in the moment that Peter spoke forth what God revealed to him, Jesus grafted Peter into His own rockiness. He became united to Christ in faith, and his statement of faith, was also a rock upon which the foundation of the Church is laid.

The protestant tradition tends to separate and divirde, as such are the fruits of rebellion. We see no need to say “this, not that”. On the contrary, we see that all are true. Christ is our Rock, Peter is a Rock, and the statement He made is a Rock. We who embrace the faith of Peter also become rocks- living stones built into His church.

I’m not sure where we can go from here?

I have an idea! :newidea:

How about you find some other venue to ply your anti-Catholic bigotry? Or better, confess and abandon this, and embrace loving your 'enemies"?

 We were saved to the praise of his glorious grace.  We were saved to glorify Him.  Therefore, God will finish the work that He started for His own glory and name sake. Salvation is centered on the glory of God, therefore it is impossible for God to fail in this glorious act of saving His vessel of mercy.  God is actually glorified according to scripture in pouring out His wrath on His vessels of wrath. That is biblical revelation and biblical theology. There's nothing left but to praise God for his glorious act of saving wretched sinners. ** I know Roman Catholics cannot praise Him this way because that are unable to see themselves actually redeemed, purchased, saved and adopted from an eternal perspective.**

Catholics (the other 22 Rites in addition to the Roman) certainly could see themselves this way if they wished to be immature and presumptuous. However, the Apostolic Teaching we have received indicates that we are to be more humble.

Phil 3:13-16
" Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained."

Catholics have received the Apostles’ instruction on a mature attitude, and we hold true to what we have attained.
Somehow you seemed to “miss” these verses in your breakneck dash thru the book of Phillipians.

Do you see why this is so important, because our praise of Him is tied in with His act of redemption through His Son. Actually, Roman Catholic theology doesn't allow you to praise Him for His glorious grace until you are on the other side of glory... because you have no idea if you will be saved. :)

You have been erroneously taught about the Catholic faith, Reformed. CAF is a great place to get your errors corrected, if you are willing.

In the meantime,you may not know that Catholics are in Divine Liturgy every day, praising Him for HIs act of glorious grace on the cross for our redemption. This is our faith.

 

[Reformed]

Do you have any thoughts on how God determines what type of vessel a person is?

Ephesians 1…for His good pleasure and Romans 9.

Nice try my friend. Catholics praise God just fine thank you.

Despite all your talk about assurance, you cannot be sure if anyone is a “true” or “superficial” Christian. (according to Calvinist theology) Incorrect statement.

The Calvinist doctrine actually gives less assurance of salvation than the Catholic one. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Calvinists don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

Peace

I have to disagree with your last paragraph. Your statement of “Catholics know that it is theirs to lose” is a statement of man’s sovereignity in salvation which is a humanistic concept. It robs God of His glory and boast in man for his portion of salvation. Do you believe salvation is 99% God and 1% man? If you answer yes, then you proclaim man is sovereign and God is not. There can only be one sovereign in this Universe. Is your apparent free will the final determining factor that will defeat God? Is God trying to save you but needs your free will permission first (Rom 9)?
The confidence and assurance of a Calvinist is in God alone for what Christ has done in our behalf. The Calvinist’s security is always in Christ alone. It is tied with the precious promises of God, and the promises of God are always YES in Christ. Since Roman Catholicism rejects the biblical doctrine of justification through imputation and forensic application, the Roman Catholic Christian cannot praise God for His grace in salvation because he does not know if God will save him from his sins. In Roman Catholicism, there is no entering in the finished work of Christ, there is not sabbath rest found in Christ alone, there is no rejoicing in “God my savior” as proclaimed by the biblical Mary. IMO… Roman Catholicism is still in the dark ages. But what do I know?

Look to the finished work of Christ on your behalf to the glory of God alone and you too can rejoice in God the Rock your Savior. If I built my faith upon the rock of a man, then I too would not have much hope and assurance… and no praises to sing and proclaim to the world. There is no great good news without understanding the finished work of Christ.

On God rests my salvation and my glory;
my mighty rock, my refuge is God. - Pslam 62:7

And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, - Luke 1

 

[cfrancis]

I don’t think he quoted scripture but rather he gave us Roman Catholic dogma.

Let’s see if Reformed is being intellectually honest…

Those who are in union with the successor of Peter. When satan wanted to sift all of the apostles, Jesus only prayed for one - Peter. He then revealed the Petrine gift - the visible evidence of unity for the Church on earth. **“when you are restored, strengthen your brethren”. **We must all be included in the prayer for Peter if we want our faith not to fail.

The Roman Catholic answer above.

The biblical Chrstians answer is by the Scripture alone.

He did quote Scripture for you.

How do you interpret that passage where Jesus prays for Peter specifically?

Unless Reformed is reading from a different NT, guanaphore did indeed cite Scripture. Why is it Reformed always runs from a Catholic response from Scripture?

Haven’t we had enough straw men from you, Reformed?

Are you asking me about the True Rock?

1 Samuel 2:2
“There is none holy like the Lord; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:3
my[1] God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my savior; you save me from violence.

2 Samuel 22:32
“For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47
“The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock, and exalted be my God, the rock of my salvation,

2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel has spoken; the Rock of Israel has said to me: When one rules justly over men, ruling in the fear of God,

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?—

Psalm 18:46
The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock, and exalted be the God of my salvation—

Psalm 42:9
I say to God, my rock: “Why have you forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?”

To all these beautiful verses, the Catholic Church says, “AMEN!”
Don’t forget 1 Pet 2:4
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,

1 Corinthians 10:4
and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Yet it’s not the “either/or” canard, but the truth of “both/and” in the sense that Christ, as God, can bestow upon man any part of Himself; after all, Peter and Paul do not heal (and neither do their shadows and kerchiefs) of their own power, but by Christ’s power.
Paul speaks to this. You and I agree with Paul when he speaks of Christ as *the *foundation:
1 Cor 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Yet Paul tells us in his letter to the Ephesians, Ch 2:
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Peter (Catholics do not separate the man and his faith) being the rock upon which Christ built His church does not detract from Christ’s rock-ness; rather, Peter as the rock glorifies Christ as omnipotent God.

 

[guanophore]

I have to disgree with your last statement. The confidence and assurance of a Calvinist is in God alone for what Christ has done in our behalf. The Calvinist’s security is always in Christ alone. It is tied with the precious promises of God, and the promises of God are always YES in Christ. Since Roman Catholicism rejects the biblical doctrine of justification through imputation and forensic application…,

This is not entirely true, Reformed. But, before I get to your misunderstanding about Catholic doctrine, let me first address your misunderstanding about the formulation of doctrine. The Catholic Church is not a “bible church”. All Catholic doctrine comes from Jesus, through the Apostles. It was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. The NT, written by, for, and about Catholics, reflects 100 % Catholic doctrine for that reason.

Doctrinal errors have been occurring from the early days of the Church, whenever some group separated from Apostolic teaching. When the scriptures were formed, they tried to derive doctrine from scripture apart from the Apostolic message. We can see these heresies in the Arian and Gnostic forms in the early centuries. These heresies have always been defended against with the Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Scripture produced by it.

We were warned by the Apostle not to accept “a different gospel”, such as those formed 500 years ago in Europe, that are not consistene with the Apostolic Tradition that we recieved.

the Roman Catholic Christian cannot praise God for His grace in salvation because he does not know if God will save him from his sins.

Catholicism is not “Roman”, Reformed, as you have apparently erroneously been taught to believe. Your statement above also indicates an ignorance about Catholic doctrine. Let me shed some light. Here is some Catholic teaching on forgiveness of sin:

1 John 1:9-10
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Catholics are absolutely confident in His forgiveness, if we are willing to meet His conditions. As you have rightly observed, all those who do not believe are condemned already, and deservedly so. However, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and forgives them. As you can see, you have misrepresented Catholic teaching, most likely because of ignorance.

In Roman Catholicism, there is no entering in the finished work of Christ, there is not sabbath rest found in Christ alone, there is no rejoicing in “God my savior” as proclaimed by the biblical Mary. IMO… Roman Catholicism is still in the dark ages. But what do I know?

You know very little about what the Catholic Church actually teaches, that much is certainly clear.

The sabbath rest into which we enter through our great High priest, however, is not “alone”. Christ chose to found a Church. All who are found in Him are built into it as living stones. We become members of one another, and we rejoice in God our savior together, not alone.

Look to the finished work of Christ on your behalf to the glory of God alone and you too can rejoice in God the Rock your Savior. If I built my faith upon the rock of a man, then I too would not have much hope and assurance… and no praises to sing and proclaim to the world. There is no great good news without understanding the finished work of Christ.

This is certainly true. A good example would be a man like Calvin, perhaps?

 

[ryanoneil]

Since Roman Catholicism rejects the biblical doctrine of justification through imputation and forensic application, the Roman Catholic Christian cannot praise God for His grace in salvation because he does not know if God will save him from his sins. In Roman Catholicism, there is no entering in the finished work of Christ, there is not sabbath rest found in Christ alone, there is no rejoicing in “God my savior” as proclaimed by the biblical Mary. IMO… Roman Catholicism is still in the dark ages. But what do I know?

You obviously don’t know Catholic theology.

Look to the finished work of Christ on your behalf to the glory of God alone and you too can rejoice in God the Rock your Savior. If I built my faith upon the rock of a man, then I too would not have much hope and assurance… and no praises to sing and proclaim to the world. There is no great good news without understanding the finished work of Christ.

I appreciate and share your confidence in the Lord’s mercy, but you are showing your ignorance of what Catholics believe.

What do you believe Jesus is saying here?

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Mt 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13)

And how does it relate to the finished work of Christ?

 

[ryanoneil]

Do you have any thoughts on how God determines what type of vessel a person is?

Ephesians 1…for His good pleasure and Romans 9

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:2-4)

Why does Jesus give a conditional warning to the Ephesians to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their awaited place in heaven?

I have to disagree with your last paragraph. Your statement of “Catholics know that it is theirs to lose” is a statement of man’s sovereignity in salvation which is a humanistic concept. It robs God of His glory and boast in man for his portion of salvation. Do you believe salvation is 99% God and 1% man?

Salvation is 100% God

If you answer yes, then you proclaim man is sovereign and God is not. There can only be one sovereign in this Universe. Is your apparent free will the final determining factor that will defeat God? Is God trying to save you but needs your free will permission first (Rom 9)?

Who is saying anything about defeating God or permission. God offers salvation, he doesn’t force it.

God’s will can never be thwarted. God’s sovereignty includes our free will. I’m not claiming to fully understand this mystery, but it is clear from Genesis to Revelation that our free will is part of God’s plan.

 

[dawid]

Since Roman Catholicism rejects the biblical doctrine of justification through imputation and forensic application, the Roman Catholic Christian cannot praise God for His grace in salvation because he does not know if God will save him from his sins.

It’s only Calvin’s interpretation of the Bible - he had no authority and was excommunicated!

Catholic doctrine is not unbiblical, thus does not reject the contents of the Bible.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

I don’t think he quoted scripture but rather he gave us Roman Catholic dogma. ”

No, not about Peter the Rock. He was quoting the Gospel of Luke. Perhaps you’ve missed this in your Bible studies:

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” (NASB) Luke 22:31-32

What does that mean to your faith tradition, Reformed?

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

No, not about Peter the Rock. He was quoting the Gospel of Luke. Perhaps you’ve missed this in your Bible studies:

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” (NASB) Luke 22:31-32

What does that mean to your faith tradition, Reformed?

Love is Patient

Thank you, I do prefer the actual scripture as compared to a personal summary of it. That’s a beautiful verse with universal application for all Christians. Please consider John 17, Romans 8, and Romans 5. Christ and God the Holy Spirit is interceding for each and every individual person who is united to Christ. The Bible is very clear that Jesus and the Spirit is praying for us. I don’t understand how Roman Catholicism teaches that Mary is praying for us because I can’t find it in the Scriptures.

 

[Reformed]

It’s only Calvin’s interpretation of the Bible - he had no authority and was excommunicated!

Catholic doctrine is not unbiblical, thus does not reject the contents of the Bible.

Please use authorative revelation to back your personal opinion.

 

[Reformed]

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:2-4)

Why does Jesus give a conditional warning to the Ephesians to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their awaited place in heaven?

Salvation is 100% God

Who is saying anything about defeating God or permission. God offers salvation, he doesn’t force it.

God’s will can never be thwarted. God’s sovereignty includes our free will. I’m not claiming to fully understand this mystery, but it is clear from Genesis to Revelation that our free will is part of God’s plan.

I think you need a good private discussion with your Roman Catholic brother Michael. He is quite the Catholic Calvinist. If you believe salvation is 100% God, do you now embrace monergism as compared to synergism? You cannot have it both ways. BTW…you sound like my Arminian protestant brothers.

Monergism: In regeneration, the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature. He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh – giving rise to a delight in His Word – all that we might, with our renewed affections, willingly & gladly embrace Christ. The Prophet Ezekiel inspired by the Holy Spirit asserted “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.” (Eze 11:19, also 36:26) The Apostle Paul said, “For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.” (1 Thess 1, 4, 5). I.e. In regeneration the word does not work alone but must be accompanied by the “germination” of the Holy Spirit. And again “…you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.” (1 Pet 1:23)

The Century Dictionary defines it as follows:

“In theology, the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration.”

It means that the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly comes to us through regeneration – and if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, he/she ignores the teaching of the Apostles, for Paul says, “…Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved.” and “…he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5) And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

It is in contrast to synergism which the Century Dictionary defines as

“…the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives.”

For more in-depth treatment of this topic click here…

monergism.com/what_is_monergism.php

 

[Love_is_Patient]

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” (NASB) Luke 22:31-32

Thank you, I do prefer the actual scripture as compared to a personal summary of it. That’s a beautiful verse with universal application for all Christians. Please consider John 17, Romans 8, and Romans 5. Christ and God the Holy Spirit is interceding for each and every individual person who is united to Christ. The Bible is very clear that Jesus and the Spirit is praying for us. I don’t understand how Roman Catholicism teaches that Mary is praying for us because I can’t find it in the Scriptures.

Dear Reformed,

Please don’t duck the question.
What does your faith tradition teach about why Jesus specifically prayed for Peter?
Please don’t go off on tangents.
Your answer is much appreciated.

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” (NASB) Luke 22:31-32

Dear Reformed,

Please don’t duck the question.
What does your faith tradition teach about why Jesus specifically prayed for Peter?
Please don’t go off on tangents.
Your answer is much appreciated.

Love is Patient

I don’t have a faith tradition sister…I’m just a Christian. I don’t look to commentaries or denominational interpertation to understand scripture. The Bible is God-breathed; therefore I am content not to understand each and every verse all the time. Please make your point, because I sure don’t understand what is so important about this verse in regards to apostolic succession. Remember, I love the biblical Peter and biblical Mary. The biblical Peter and biblical Mary is not the possession of the Catholic Church.

 

[cfrancis]

I don’t have a faith tradition sister…I’m just a Christian. I don’t look to commentaries or denominational interpertation to understand scripture. The Bible is God-breathed; therefore I am content not to understand each and every verse all the time. Please make your point, because I sure don’t understand what is so important about this verse in regards to apostolic succession. Remember, I love the biblical Peter and biblical Mary. The biblical Peter and biblical Mary is not the possession of the Catholic Church.

YIKES! More intellectual dishonesty. I guess your use of Spurgeon and Calvin to underpin your theology don’t count.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” (NASB) Luke 22:31-32

I don’t have a faith tradition sister…I’m just a Christian. I don’t look to commentaries or denominational interpertation to understand scripture. The Bible is God-breathed; therefore I am content not to understand each and every verse all the time. Please make your point, because I sure don’t understand what is so important about this verse in regards to apostolic succession. Remember, I love the biblical Peter and biblical Mary. The biblical Peter and biblical Mary is not the possession of the Catholic Church.

While I would beg to differ on your first point–certainly, you have embraced the Calvinist faith tradition–that’s perhaps not worth arguing today.

My point is simply this: why would Jesus single Peter out for prayers? Why would Satan single Peter out to “sift like wheat”? Have you ever considered that maybe Luke is trying to tell us something?

Catholics love the biblical Peter and Mary too. And we love sharing them with you.

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

YIKES! More intellectual dishonesty. I guess your use of Spurgeon and Calvin to underpin your theology don’t count.

I do indeed read alot of Christian books which is considered extra-biblical revelation. However, they are not authorative over the Scriptures. I was just responding to the post since Roman Catholics appeal to their tradition as compared to Scripture alone for truth. Sola Scriptura has nothing to do with studying and reading extra-biblical sources.

Originally Posted by Love is Patient
No, not about Peter the Rock. He was quoting the Gospel of Luke. Perhaps you’ve missed this in your Bible studies:

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” (NASB) Luke 22:31-32

What does that mean to your faith tradition, Reformed?

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” (NASB) Luke 22:31-32

While I would beg to differ on your first point–certainly, you have embraced the Calvinist faith tradition–that’s perhaps not worth arguing today.

My point is simply this: why would Jesus single Peter out for prayers? Why would Satan single Peter out to “sift like wheat”? Have you ever considered that maybe Luke is trying to tell us something?

Catholics love the biblical Peter and Mary too. And we love sharing them with you.

Love is Patient

Okay, why do you think Jesus singled out Peter? Try to support your view with the Scriptures.

Luke 1:47

“and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” - Mary

 

[cfrancis]

Okay, why do you think Jesus singled out Peter? Try to support your view with the Scriptures.

Luke 1:47

“and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” - Mary

Mt 16:18-19, for one; Jn 21:15-19 for another.

 

[Reformed]

Mt 16:18-19, for one; Jn 21:15-19 for another.

Okay… so we know God is our Rock and not Peter. Now let’s discuss John 21. I’m not sure how you get apostolic succession with that. According to the author of John, he states that Jesus loved Him more than Peter. It sure seemed that Peter was quite jealous of whom Jesus loved. . The most influential disciples are Paul and John… as it is written. Read the 13 epstiles of Paul and 5 books written by John. Then compare it with the two epsitles written by Peter and you will understand the truth (maybe).

John 21:15-25

Jesus and Peter
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. 18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” 19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”

Jesus and the Beloved Apostle
20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who had been reclining at table close to him and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” 21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22 Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers [1] that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true.

25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

 

[ryanoneil]

I think you need a good private discussion with your Roman Catholic brother Michael. He is quite the Catholic Calvinist. If you believe salvation is 100% God, do you now embrace monergism as compared to synergism? You cannot have it both ways. BTW…you sound like my Arminian protestant brothers.

I’d be happy to here Michael’s comments on the subject, because I have no idea what you are talking about. The Ephesians are clearly regenerated in both book’s (however it occured), but the Lord warns them in (Rev 2:4-5) that they are in danger of losing their salvation.

Do the Ephesian’s actions count for anything regarding their salvation?

If not, why is Jesus warning them?